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[bigboss370]

Actually, if we are going to be proper then Wii won, right?

Ok, so most sold units is a measure of "winning" and what is it that you win? The console wars?

I mean, now that PS3 has the lead over 360, does that mean that it will get more games from thirdparty? Does that mean that multiplat games that before were "better" on 360, are now, suddenly, better on PS3?

So, what do you get by winning?

lol what are you even on about? your original reply was asking "In what sense did PS3/Sony beat 360/MS?"

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

I bet sony is actually rather happy with how things turned out after an absolute disaster of a launch.

At this point those who are constantly bitching about others who say the ps3 must be ahead of the 360 to be a huge win are equally bad

The real win will be when PS3 passes the Wii

 

[benny_a]

The real win will be when PS3 passes the Wii

The real win will be when the next Naughty Dog game launches on PS4. :-D

 

[B.O.O.M]

The real win will be when PS3 passes the Wii

You think it can? I don't think so personally. But who knows...ps2 sold impressively even after the current gen launched, so I guess anything can happen

 

[tzare]

No, my main point and this is what im trying to go after is, what does winning really mean?
Yeah, fanboys will argue that their console is the best, just because it has a sales lead. I argue that, if the difference is not crazy much, having a sales lead will not really make a difference and thus, you dont win anything.

Having a sales lead by 5-10 million, does not change anything for third parties (at least, between MS and Sony). Have a sales lead like 150 vs 50, then 3rd party will maybe focus on one platform, but Sony will not have this sales advantage ever again.

Both MS and Sony have already won massive 3rd party support and both coming machines will sell enough to make 3rd party happy.

The only metric I see of winning is, if you make the competitors go out of business or if you have this crazy sales lead that makes the platform the de facto standard.. THEN, you have truly won!

means that you sold 1 console more than your competitor. Nothing more nothing less. It is just a topic to talk. If you sell millions more then is something investors and third parties care, and i posted the example of japan: the home console 3rd parties care for is ps3. Some games are only going to be published for it as 360 is not relevant anymore.

ANd it is important the way you reach those sales, ps3 has done well late into the generation and puts sony in a good position for ps4. However nintendo that has 'won the console war' (so far) but they are in a difficult position with WiiU, abandoned the wii and now they are paying the consequences. And the same can be said about MS, their 360 strategy late this generation is probably not helping them with Xbone.

 

[PotionBleue]

The real win will be when PS3 passes the Wii

The Wii continues to have huge third-party hits like Just Dance (last one released late 2012 sold like 6+ millions). It's not dead yet.

 

[SmokyDave]

Does this "let's not use units sold to determine the winner" thing happen at the end of every gen? I thought that shit was clear cut. Sell the most = 'win'. No, it's not that important in the grand scheme of things, but it's always been that way.

 

[Canis lupus]

We know. I Just check

Sales decreased 12.2% year-on-year (a 15% decrease on a constant currency basis) to 707.1 billion yen (7,522
million U.S. dollars). Sales to external customers decreased 22.5% year-on-year. This significant decrease was
primarily due to a decrease in unit sales of PlayStation®3 (“PS3”) hardware

Page 3

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/12q4_sony.pdf

Thanks, kind of unreal the PS2 was flat YoY in its last year of production. Would that system ever die if it wasn't discontinued? (assuming its discontinued, there were conflicting reports about it in january).

 

[Maximilian E.]

T
I can understand your last comment, but we have always used unit sales to rank the consoles at the end of a gen. I'm sure that you would argue that Xbox 1 beat the gamecube in their gen.

I would even argue that 360 won over Wii you this gen..

Perhaps we should see this in a bigger perspective and not only focus on the most sales?
Because coming from previous generation, who gained the most? Who lost the most?
(money, brandvalue etc). Which plattform benefitted devs/publishers the most?
Perhaps this are metrics that also should be taken in consideration? Because just having lots of sales does not tell the whole story..

... Michael Schumachers record winning 6 championship does not change the fact that Ayrton Senna is considered the best F1 driver in the history of F1, and still, he only won 3..

Im just sayin

 

[allan-bh]

In the better cenario PS3 sold 13.8m on last FY. That leaves 2.7m for PS2.

So maximum LTD for PS3 is 81.5m - 2.7m = 78.8m (600k ahead of 360). It's possible that PS3 still tracks behind.

 

[Baki]

You think it can? I don't think so personally. But who knows...ps2 sold impressively even after the current gen launched, so I guess anything can happen

They expect the PS3 to sell an additional 10m units this fiscal year. That would put the PS3 at about ~90m (a bit less). From there on, it would take about 18 months to pass the 100 million mark.

 

[womfalcs3]

Outselling your competition by 1 or 2m when you've lost billions, not to mention seen your brand recede by 50% really isn't a victory and I doubt Sony will be boasting either. But hey fanboys.

Outselling your competition by 1 or 2 million in 1 to 1.5 years less time at a higher price does have some meaning. Especially considering the possibility of the PS3 continuing to outsell the X360 over the coming years, and thus adding to that lead.

And by the 50% figure, you're comparing not even 7 years to over a decade's worth of sales with the PS2.

In the end, the PS3 may not be too far behind the PS1.

 

[Bundy]

I would even argue that 360 won over Wii you this gen..

Perhaps we should see this in a bigger perspective and not only focus on the most sales?
Because coming from previous generation, who gained the most? Who lost the most?
(money, brandvalue etc). Which plattform benefitted devs/publishers the most?
Perhaps this are metrics that also should be taken in consideration? Because just having lots of sales does not tell the whole story..

... Michael Schumachers record winning 6 championship does not change the fact that Ayrton Senna is considered the best F1 driver in the world, and still, he only won 3..

Im just sayin

Michael Schumacher is considered the best F1 driver in the world.
E. Smith is considered the best RB in the world (B. Sanders story, etc.)

We are talking about sales, sales numbers, marketshare here.

I'm just sayin

 

[Hindle]

Does this "let's not use units sold to determine the winner" thing happen at the end of every gen? I thought that shit was clear cut. Sell the most = 'win'. No, it's not that important in the grand scheme of things, but it's always been that way.

Well if you sold slightly more of something then me, but you did nothing but lose money and I did nothing but make money, would you still think you beat me?

The people who come out with what you stated really don't understand anything about business and essentially see the hardware industery as a sport.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

The real win will be when the next Naughty Dog game launches on PS4. :-D

That will be glorious.

You think it can? I don't think so personally. But who knows...ps2 sold impressively even after the current gen launched, so I guess anything can happen

I think so yeah. It will take a while but PS3 sales won't drop drastically YoY. Much like the PS2, I don't see the PS3's sales ever hitting less than 2M in a year.

 

[1st Course]

Thanks, kind of unreal the PS2 was flat YoY in its last year of production. Would that system ever die if it wasn't discontinued? (assuming its discontinued, there were conflicting reports about it in january).

2011 PS2/3 outsold 2012 PS2/3 in every Q but the last one (the PS2 last Q). Sony probably just over shipped it in the last Q since it was the last shipment anyway.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

The Wii continues to have huge third-party hits like Just Dance (last one released late 2012 sold like 6+ millions). It's not dead yet.

In terms of hardware sales, it is. And Are you sure the last Just Dance game sold 6M?

 

[King Beyond the wall]

I would even argue that 360 won over Wii you this gen..

Perhaps we should see this in a bigger perspective and not only focus on the most sales?
Because coming from previous generation, who gained the most? Who lost the most?
(money, brandvalue etc). Which plattform benefitted devs/publishers the most?
Perhaps this are metrics that also should be taken in consideration? Because just having lots of sales does not tell the whole story..

... Michael Schumachers record winning 6 championship does not change the fact that Ayrton Senna is considered the best F1 driver in the history of F1, and still, he only won 3..

Im just sayin

That's a strange analogy to use and does not really apply to this situation. It's like saying that even though the Wii won this gen, the PS2 is still the best.

I understand your point though, your suggesting that other factors, such as pure profit and market share improvement from previous gen, should be used to work out who won?

In this sense I don't think this would be a good idea as it leaves massive room for different spin and interpretation: the fans of each console could effectively argue that they each won the console war. The 'console war' has always been about console sales and judged exclusively in a vacuum of that gen, and this makes the most sense.

 

[SmokyDave]

Well if you sold slightly more of something then me, but you did nothing but lose money and I did nothing but make money, would you still think you beat me?

If the 'competition' we entered had always relied on 'most unit sales' to determine the victor, you'd have to graciously concede. Anything else is just sour grapes.

The people who come out with what you stated really don't understand anything about business and essentially see the hardware industery as a sport.

Right, but that is how it has always been. Why must it change now?

I mean, I kinda get it. I'm not over the moon at the fact that the Wii is currently the Gen 7 winner, as I thought it was a crap console with a lackluster library. That's not the point though, it sold more than the other two, so it 'wins'.

 

[medrew]

It's mostly tooling up for production and buying forward contracts for components and assembly line space that causes a loss like this.

Huh. Those would only be cash flow considerations.

Tooling for PS4 would end up as being on the balance sheet as Capital WIP. And even then would Sony be buying the tooling themselves or would the sub-contractor being paying for it.

Forward contracts also wouldn't have any impact. if they've made any advance payments, highly unlikely as if anything they would be operating on credit for supplies, then it would be under prepayments on the balance sheet.

Also PS4 R&D costs in the P&L could be a little murky if they've gone and capitalised development costs. Not aware of Japanese GAAP, but most accounting standards allow the development phase to be capitalised if the work ends up in the final product (and then amortised over the life of the product).

 

[amar212]

Good luck with that 5.0 million portable projection Sony. You can join Nintendo in the looney bin

Everyone I know will buy Vita once PS4 arrives because of the Remote Play.

And I know we are not alone in that.

 

[Amir0x]

Everyone I know will buy Vita once PS4 arrives because of the Remote Play.

And I know we are not alone in that.

no you guys are like, seriously, pretty much alone

 

[Bundy]

no you guys are like, seriously, pretty much alone

Hm, have a lot of buddies which are saying the same thing.
Maybe the PS4 will give the PSV a small boost.

 

[PotionBleue]

In terms of hardware sales, it is. And Are you sure the last Just Dance game sold 6M?

Q3 FY2012-2013 mentioned nearly 8 million combined. Considering previous versions' repartition and time elapsed since then, yes it is very safe to assume 6+ million by now for the Wii version alone.

As for hardware Nintendo's forecast is 2 million Wii for FY2013-2014. Figures are 8,6 million Wii FY2011-2012 and 2,6 million Wii FY2012-2013. So everything is possible really.

 

[Shiggy]

Huh. Those would only be cash flow considerations.

Tooling for PS4 would end up as being on the balance sheet as Capital WIP. And even then would Sony be buying the tooling themselves or would the sub-contractor being paying for it.

Forward contracts also wouldn't have any impact. if they've made any advance payments, highly unlikely as if anything they would be operating on credit for supplies, then it would be under prepayments on the balance sheet.

Also PS4 R&D costs in the P&L could be a little murky if they've gone and capitalised development costs. Not aware of Japanese GAAP, but most accounting standards allow the development phase to be capitalised if the work ends up in the final product (and then amortised over the life of the product).

This. Good to see someone with basic knowledge regarding accounting rules.

 

[Striek]

I keep telling myself I'll buy a Vita one day because I have a lot of what metacritic says are good games 'free' from PS+ which would make the Vita exceedingly good value....but...shrug. I have a 3DS and haven't played that since FE:A and it was a hell of a long time before that. Since I don't really have the time to play games when I'm not home theres little point not just playing better games on my PC/PS3/360 when I do get home.

PS4 might be the straw that breaks the camels back for me or maybe I'll just be too busy playing new games to care at that point. I don't know. I'm sure Sony is betting on accumulated value of PS+ and PS4 remote play to move some Vitas though.

 

[NHale]

The real win will be when PS3 passes the Wii

Not happening because of the incredible high PS3 price. And they will not cut the price now because it would give even more reasons for people not to buy a PS4. So we're stuck with a $249/€249 machine that is nowhere near the price the PS2 sold after the PS3 was released.

 

[KillerMan91]

PS3 was probably overshipped during Q4 so no wonder that they only beat X360 marginally this quarter. 3.4 million for PS2/PS3 was pretty insane amount during Q4.

 

[allan-bh]

PS3 was probably overshipped during Q4 so no wonder that they only beat X360 marginally this quarter. 3.4 million for PS2/PS3 was pretty insane amount during Q4.

I think this number is because PS2 final shipment.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

Not happening because of the incredible high PS3 price. And they will not cut the price now because it would give even more reasons for people not to buy a PS4. So we're stuck with a $249/€249 machine that is nowhere near the price the PS2 sold after the PS3 was released.

I doubt Sony will retire the PS3 at $269.

 

[Nikodemos]

I doubt Sony will retire the PS3 at $269.

They'll cut its price in Jan/Feb 2014. After PS4's head of steam from Christmas has dissipated.

 

[NHale]

I doubt Sony will retire the PS3 at $269.

Unless they are even dumber than they already appear, they have to drop the price.

But when will they drop it? If it's in the next 12-18 months and is a big drop, people will see retailers promoting PS3 instead of PS4. Not what Sony would want if I had to guess.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

Unless they are even dumber than they already appear, they have to drop the price.

But when will they drop it? If it's in the next 12-18 months and is a big drop, people will see retailers promoting PS3 instead of PS4. Not what Sony would want if I had to guess.

Doesn't matter when they will drop it. There will always be a market for it.

 

[shinra-bansho]

We know. I Just check

Sales decreased 12.2% year-on-year (a 15% decrease on a constant currency basis) to 707.1 billion yen (7,522
million U.S. dollars). Sales to external customers decreased 22.5% year-on-year. This significant decrease was
primarily due to a decrease in unit sales of PlayStation®3 (“PS3”) hardware

Page 3

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/12q4_sony.pdf

"Sales" refers to revenue.

 

[womfalcs3]

Unless they are even dumber than they already appear, they have to drop the price.

But when will they drop it? If it's in the next 12-18 months and is a big drop, people will see retailers promoting PS3 instead of PS4. Not what Sony would want if I had to guess.

That market for PS3 7 years in is different from the market for PS4 at launch.

 

[King Beyond the wall]

Ps3 will be around for another 3 or 4 years. It has only just entered the Brazilian market at an affordable price, and it will also enter other growing markets, such as china, in the coming years.
With a price cut in the west it should also continue to see strong sales (especially with sony's continued support and games),and will only minimally affect the PS4 as they are products tailored to different customers.

 

[Miles X]

So has the PS3 passed the 360 yet in sales?

We have no idea.

Wow 1.1m is really low, I wonder what happened?

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

So the 81mil PS3 vs 78mil 360 figure includes a few months of PS2 sales as well? Guess we may never know who won the gen (or rather who lost it) for sure then. Probably is more or less tied though.

Oh, I know who won.

 

[allan-bh]

"Sales" refers to revenue.

decrease in unit sales

 

[Miles X]

decrease in unit sales

Pretty sure it was confirmed to be revenue. Even so it doesn't take a genius to work out it was either flat or slightly down.

I mean it would explain the 1.1m better, to go from selling 1.8m in this Q 3 years in a row to a 700k YOY drop.

In the better cenario PS3 sold 13.8m on last FY. That leaves 2.7m for PS2.

So maximum LTD for PS3 is 81.5m - 2.7m = 78.8m (600k ahead of 360). It's possible that PS3 still tracks behind.

Their FY Target for PS3 was 13m btw

 

[Shiggy]

Pretty sure it was confirmed to be revenue. Even so it doesn't take a genius to work out it was either flat or slightly down.

I mean it would explain the 1.1m better, to go from selling 1.8m in this Q 3 years in a row to a 700k YOY drop.

Unit sales does not make sense to be revenue as unit refers to units of consoles.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Huh. Those would only be cash flow considerations.

Tooling for PS4 would end up as being on the balance sheet as Capital WIP. And even then would Sony be buying the tooling themselves or would the sub-contractor being paying for it.

Forward contracts also wouldn't have any impact. if they've made any advance payments, highly unlikely as if anything they would be operating on credit for supplies, then it would be under prepayments on the balance sheet.

Also PS4 R&D costs in the P&L could be a little murky if they've gone and capitalised development costs. Not aware of Japanese GAAP, but most accounting standards allow the development phase to be capitalised if the work ends up in the final product (and then amortised over the life of the product).

I think a factor is that the PS4 is going to be sold for below cost, so the pre-payments they make would be at a higher level than any inventory they take on. That needs to be accounted for. Plus IP rights payments to the likes of AMD and others would have to paid for up front.

Not just that, but Sony could be paying for manufacturing capacity they aren't using right now, essentially to ensure they have enough for when they do need to ramp up. If you look at the intersegment sales they are slightly elevated which means SCE is paying the electronics/manufacturing division for something.

 

[allan-bh]

Pretty sure it was confirmed to be revenue. Even so it doesn't take a genius to work out it was either flat or slightly down.

I mean it would explain the 1.1m better, to go from selling 1.8m in this Q 3 years in a row to a 700k YOY drop.

decrease in unit sales of PlayStation®3 (“PS3”) hardware

I think this is pretty clear. Anyway, I agree that PS3 down YoY in the end is obvious.

 

[Miles X]

Unit sales does not make sense to be revenue as unit refers to units of consoles.

I had the same argument a year back agreeing with your stance, but somebody showed some sort of proof that proved me wrong and that it was revenue.

 

[allan-bh]

I had the same argument a year back agreeing with your stance, but somebody showed some sort of proof that proved me wrong and that it was revenue.

I like to see that proof. Sounds non sense.

Maybe some people just don't want to accept a fact an try to spin.

 

[Miles X]

I like to see that proof. Sounds non sense.

Maybe some people just don't want to accept a fact an try to spin.

Perhaps, I'm willing to believe it's either and that both were down anyhow so it doesn't matter for my own estimations. PS3 was down 200k the prior Q, and at the least 200k the following Q.

 

[Shiggy]

I had the same argument a year back agreeing with your stance, but somebody showed some sort of proof that proved me wrong and that it was revenue.

I see. Thinking about it, I've seen unit sales defined as "revenue per unit" in other places.

 

[cebri.one]

But,but,but Sony is not profitable if it doesn't sell any buildings. Lolz

 

[fluffydelusions]

Happy to see Sony coming out of that red. GG Kaz

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Shares are up 4% pre-market on low volume. Beating the revenue forecast and operating profits forecast will have helped.