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[Spuck-uk]

The game's original budget was under 30 million and wasn't planning all the seamless transitions between planets and space. On top of budget concerns, building a new from scratch engine would've added even more years to their timeline.

So, we're back to feature creep then.

 

[shootfast]

I might as well post the not-even-complete list of stuff still to do in every SC thread to warn people off:



Oh, and they're actually building two games, and this is only one of them, and they're doing this with a dev team half the size of the one building Destiny 2, a much smaller less ambitious game.

Also they thought the other game, SQ42, the one with all the celebrity actors, could be built for only $6 million dollars at a time when AAA games were costing $60 million, and in fact thought $6 million was such a huge amount they could build a whole MMO more ambitious than any MMO ever as a stretch goal without expanding the budget at all!

What part of game in development you don't get, of course it has non complete stuff, only thing that matters is actually the networking for star citizen everything is else secondary.

Also their dev team is huge at 300 even if it's half the size of bungie.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Posts like this are embarrassing tbh.

Either you aren't following the progress, don't understand game development, or both.

There are places to be critical of RSI, but "disaster of a project" is far from an informed conclusion.

Hi, I worked in game development for a real long time.

The project is a disaster, mostly due to terrible management, overreaching, and a total lack of planning.

 

[shootfast]

So, we're back to feature creep then.

It's been feature locked for years. The community voted to increase the scope to match the funding years ago. You know nothing.

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

I remember reading an article about this game's development last year, where they talked about how it was being made by multiple studios in multiple locations and they have little communication between them. The Squadron 42 thing was the only part that seemed even relatively close to release and its MIA at this point.

 

[Grief.exe]

Keep up with the strawman arguments.

CIG and Roberts set schedules that they themselves fail to meet, and you are blaming those that took him at his word...

Once again, 3.0 was supposed to be out end of 2016. It is late, and CIG are not giving any dates now.

I don't think they realized the realities of splitting up development into playable chunks for crowd funding purposes would negatively impact game development.

Constantly readying these chunks into playable demos removes employees from future workflows in order to get these demos into a playable state, beyond that much of that work has to be thrown out during subsequent development stages.

Hindsight is 20/20, but this has lead to the bulk of the delays. Stretch goal creep also contributes a significant amount to the development extensions.

 

[RubberJohnny]

What part of game in development you don't get, of course it has non complete stuff, only thing that matters is actually the networking for star citizen everything is else secondary.

Haha, the "you don't understand game development" line, BINGO, B-I-N-G-O!

I'm fairly sure that completing the game is what matters the most - that they can't make netcode that doesn't drop everyone's framerate to 20fps when they have only 24 players on the server (less than default CryEngine netcode LOL) is very embarrassing for them, but it's not like they can deliver non-fucked netcode and mark the game complete, there's plenty more to do:

 

[shootfast]

Hi, I worked in game development for a real long time.

The project is a disaster, mostly due to terrible management, overreaching, and a total lack of planning.

Those are just words, show me how it's terrible management, overreaching and total lack of planning on RSI's part! If you worked in game development you would have known making their own engine from scratch is not an option. You end up with all the problems Bungie had with destiny development.

It’s not uncommon for a game’s scope to reduce during development, but Bungie had a unique problem. People who worked on this project say that one of Bungie’s fundamental issues over the past few years has been the game’s engine, which the studio built from scratch alongside Destiny. Four sources pointed to Destiny’s technology—the tools they use to design levels, render graphics, and create content—as an inhibiting factor in the game’s development.

“Let’s say a designer wants to go in and move a resource node two inches,” said one person familiar with the engine. “They go into the editor. First they have to load their map overnight. It takes eight hours to input their map overnight. They get [into the office] in the morning. If their importer didn’t fail, they open the map. It takes about 20 minutes to open. They go in and they move that node two feet. And then they’d do a 15-20 minute compile. Just to do a half-second change.”

People who have worked with Destiny’s tech say the company is capable of powering incredible things Behind the Scenes, like player matchmaking. It’s also clear that Destiny is one of the best-looking video games ever made. But as a tool-set for designers, sources say, Destiny’s engine is subpar, and creating new maps and missions at Bungie can be grueling for developers.

 

[Outrun]

What part of game in development you don't get, of course it has non complete stuff, only thing that matters is actually the networking for star citizen everything is else secondary.

Also their dev team is huge at 300 even if it's half the size of bungie.

What part of continually missed deadlines do you not get.

You are asking for people to understand that AAA game development is tough, whilst simultaneously asking them to discount what Robert's stated all those years ago...

If you think that 2.6 is an indicator of time and resources well spent, then I am happy for you. The project is moving splendidly.

But many others, do not share that sentiment because they thought they were getting SQ42 in 2016 (and some thought they were getting it in 2015). They thought that because they were told that initially...

 

[shootfast]

Haha, the "you don't understand game development" line, BINGO, B-I-N-G-O!

I'm fairly sure that completing the game is what matters the most - that they can't make netcode that doesn't drop everyone's framerate to 20fps when they have only 24 players on the server (less than default CryEngine netcode LOL) is very embarrassing for them, but it's not like they can deliver non-fucked netcode and mark the game complete.

They are still using the cryengine netcode, they haven't implemented their version which is due in 3.0. You would know that if you know how to read instead of copy paste.

 

[Outrun]

I don't think they realized the realities of splitting up development into playable chunks for crowd funding purposes would negatively impact game development.

Constantly readying these chunks into playable demos removes employees from future workflows in order to get these demos into a playable state, beyond that much of that work has to be thrown out during subsequent development stages.

Hindsight is 20/20, but this has lead to the bulk of the delays. Stretch goal creep also contributes a significant amount to the development extensions.

Fair points.

I think that there could be a massive disconnect between those that backed in 2013 and recent backers.

If I was a recent backer, I would be dropping money into a game with the understanding that there is no release date.

Some backers in 2013, I think rightfully thought that they would be enjoying a completed game by now (SQ42).

 

[Tertullian]

Man, I just don't know what to think about this game's development. All I can say is, as a bad person and fan of schadenfreude, I am looking forward to the future crow-eating thread, no matter which "side" "wins". Whether the game releases in all its glory and blows away every other space sim, or the studio crashes and burns and stops paying it's employees one day, you could fill up pages and pages with over-the-top quotes from whichever side was wrong.

 

[~Cross~]

Being feature lock is one thing, the other is actually implementing features. What features have been added over the year + since 2.0 was released? Like actual, in game features, mechanics and loops?

The ability to acquire money and spend it on a few pieces of cosmetics and an extremely dumb down player affinity system thats mostly there to stop people from griefing. Also a pvp station I think and finally 2.6 had a completely different version of SM that was supposed to come out weeks not months away in like June 2015. That massive list of features that Johnny posted? Hasn't really been tackled at all.

The real creep going on right now is entirely an art/model one. People working for the thing already mentioned that Chris would approve something and then come back in a few weeks saying its no good, you have to rework it. A letter from an ex employee a few years ago was the first warning sign that something was up. Then articles pop up that Chris completely scrapped all the SQ42 models in 2015, a few months before their do date, so that they could match Order 1886s ones.

New models mean new animations. The prettier models stand in stark contrast against their environments? Well rework those too. Whats that? The Cutlass still looks like ass and we still dont know what to do with it? Rework it for the 4th time. The Duke Nukem Forever cycle.

 

[RubberJohnny]

They are still using the cryengine netcode, they haven't implemented their version which is due in 3.0. You would know that if you know how to read instead of copy paste.

Nope, they actually held back Arena Commander for 4 months because they didn't want to use CryEngine netcode and wanted to do their own MMO netcode. It's just that theirs was absolute shit, so backers started pretending they were still using the default, even though that literally doesn't make sense because CryEngine supported higher player counts with better performance.

 

[shootfast]

What part of continually missed deadlines do you not get.

You are asking for people to understand that AAA game development is tough, whilst simultaneously asking them to discount what Robert's stated all those years ago...

If you think that 2.6 is an indicator of time and resources well spent, then I am happy for you. The project is moving splendidly.

But many others, do not share that sentiment because they thought they were getting SQ42 in 2016 (and some thought they were getting it in 2015). They thought that because they were told that initially...

Most AAA games these days are missing their deadlines. What we are getting still is progress, yes they are delayed but they are progressing. In the end I guess I'm more patient then other people. I don't want done in 2016 if it's not ready or just ok. I put money into star citizen to get the best space game ever and everything else be damned. There are people who want the game sooner rather then later, this isn't the game for you.

 

[MasterOfPastures]

Quoting this so I can return every few months for a hearty chuckle.

This amazing tech being a butchered reworking of Cryengine?

Its lumberyard now. They flew that under the radar just before the new year.
And chuckle away if it tickles you. The day Naughty Dog gets out its linear corridor comfort zone, I will be eagerly awaiting what their wizards can do.

 

[mnannola]

Technically, couldn't a large part of that $141 million be refunded back to backers at some point?

Lets say 2019 rolls around and the game is still no where near completion. They have like 5 out of 100 systems done, movement and combat is still buggy, large features are missing, Squadron 42 doesn't quite work right. I think there is a chance that a large group of backers will be requesting refunds.

What if large "whales" start requesting money back? Lets say they need to refund 20-50 million in 2019, and they don't have it? Things could get nasty.

 

[Outrun]

Its lumberyard now. They flew that under the radar just before the new year.
And chuckle away if it tickles you. The day Naughty Dog gets out its linear corridor comfort zone, I will be eagerly awaiting what their wizards can do.

You really are doubling down on ND vs. CIG?

 

[LostDonkey]

Let's face it. Anything is possible after the last guardian.

 

[Spuck-uk]

It's been feature locked for years. The community voted to increase the scope to match the funding years ago. You know nothing.

You're shifting the goalposts further and faster than the SC kickstarter, lol.

 

[MasterOfPastures]

You really are doubling down on ND vs. CIG?

Different goals. Naughty dog produces excellence. Extreme polish and detail. Obsesive prettyness. And the standard for the slight stylized reality of their art direction.
But technical ambition? No.

 

[Spuck-uk]

I don't think they realized the realities of splitting up development into playable chunks for crowd funding purposes would negatively impact game development.

Constantly readying these chunks into playable demos removes employees from future workflows in order to get these demos into a playable state, beyond that much of that work has to be thrown out during subsequent development stages.

Hindsight is 20/20, but this has lead to the bulk of the delays. Stretch goal creep also contributes a significant amount to the development extensions.

The thing is, they should have known these things. These are standard industry problems (Managing outsourcing and multiple studios is hard, and demos are horrible resource hogs). The fact that Roberts didn't know this, or didn't think to ask competent people, is on him.

 

[atpbx]

Technically, couldn't a large part of that $141 million be refunded back to backers at some point?

Lets say 2019 rolls around and the game is still no where near completion. They have like 5 out of 100 systems done, movement and combat is still buggy, large features are missing, Squadron 42 doesn't quite work right. I think there is a chance that a large group of backers will be requesting refunds.

What if large "whales" start requesting money back? Lets say they need to refund 20-50 million in 2019, and they don't have it? Things could get nasty.

Without wasting your and my time, the short answer is no.

 

[Outrun]

Different goals. Naughty dog produces excellence. Extreme polish and detail. Obsesive prettyness. And the standard for the slight stylized reality of their art direction.
But technical ambition? No.

Whose engine does ND use, and whose engine does CIG use?

I understand the ambition part, but surely you have to realize the dream right?

 

[shootfast]

You're shifting the goalposts further and faster than the SC kickstarter, lol.

And you know nothing cause if you knew anything you wouldn't spew Star citizen should have made a game engine from scratch and you would have backed up all your assertions of

The project is a disaster, mostly due to terrible management, overreaching, and a total lack of planning.

 

[Effect]

The thing is, they should have known these things. These are standard industry problems (Managing outsourcing and multiple studios is hard, and demos are horrible resource hogs). The fact that Roberts didn't know this, or didn't think to ask competent people, is on him.

This. Current realities are what they are. You can't change that. That however, and this a big thing that many people defending Star Citizen should and need to understand, doesn't absolve people like Roberts from their actions that lead to the current realities. One can't fall back on "development is hard". Everyone knows that. However bad decision making plays a HUGE role in how any project turns out. Many things are complicated and hard but people don't go around constantly using that excuse for when things turn bad. The blame is placed where it should rightfully be. The competence of those responsible for seeing said project to its completion, their decision making and how they respond when things don't work.

 

[dumbo]

Technically, couldn't a large part of that $141 million be refunded back to backers at some point?

Over the last 2 years, Foundry 42 (the UK developer) have spent somewhere in the region of $50m (based on their 2015 accounts).

There is no way that a 'large part' of $140m could be refunded, even if they wanted to.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Over the last 2 years, Foundry 42 (the UK developer) have spent somewhere in the region of $50m (based on their 2015 accounts).

There is no way that a 'large part' of $140m could be refunded, even if they wanted to.

Interesting, are there any other public figures for the sister studios?
My guess of $30m a year for the entire project is obviously way too conservative

 

[MasterOfPastures]

Whose engine does ND use, and whose engine does CIG use?

I understand the ambition part, but surely you have to realize the dream right?

Their own engine is perfect for the games they have made: cinematic adventures focused on characters. Everything they do is towards that. And why should they change? It risks killing the golden goose. And their paymasters would probably not let them veer too far from that.
I want CIG to release this to prove it can be made. And to eat all the shit first so that the guys after them learn how to improve on it without the massive resource and research expense.

 

[mnannola]

Over the last 2 years, Foundry 42 (the UK developer) have spent somewhere in the region of $50m (based on their 2015 accounts).

There is no way that a 'large part' of $140m could be refunded, even if they wanted to.

But currently they are doing refunds if you request it.

So at some point will they just shut down the ability to refund backers? A majority of people are still giving them a chance to get this game done, but at some point if they still are no where close do being done they could have a lot of people asking for their money back. If they shut down refunds it won't be pretty.

 

[RubberJohnny]

Those are just words, show me how it's terrible management, overreaching and total lack of planning on RSI's part!

OK.

• Working on final art assets before stuff such as whiteboxes, greyboxes, or technical requirements for gameplay have been nailed down, resulting in endless redos of ships to support their functions, and requiring further more redesigns to come to support promised but absent features (docking, breaking fighters into components that can be fit into cargo containers for shipping). They have gotten better at this, but only when backers called them out on their process being arse-about-face.
• Misleading backers by pushing internal "pitch" videos as evidence of progress (damage states, Pupil to Planet, Hurston)
• Documented lying to backers about funding, specifically the cost of the lavish furnishings for CR's building which does the least work for the project.
• Poor communication between studios resulting in large quantities of work being thrown out (Illfonic, confirmed by CR)
• Prioritising technical features with no effect on end user experience that result in endless redos and huge amounts of wasted work (eleven character rigs to get matched animations)
• Throwing out work because it's fallen behind the technical curve (Streamline Studios work thrown out mentioned in Anniversary livestream)
• Failure to evaluate internal progress and set realistic targets (Chris Roberts actually referred to this as "development hell" in the Kotaku article, judging by their off-by-18 month deadlines, they're still firmly in it)
• Complete absence of technical targets, polycounts, or artistic direction (source: letter by entire UK character art team that walked out, confirmed by CR)
• Chris Roberts wanting new features based on seeing them in other games (as confirmed in the Kotaku article about The Orders character clothing)
• Public videos showing CR changing scope within short deadlines, endless crunch, and treating staff like shit because he set them up to fail (acknowledges being a bully in Kotaku article)
• Constantly changing the scope, every ship Q&A or 10 Questions for the Developers adds some new feature that requires specific programming (too many to mention).
• Widening the entrances and narrowing the exits, i.e. pushing cash-only sales, general inflation of ship concept prices, while changing the TOS to avoid giving backers financials or refunds as promised (typically something you try and do before the whole place closes shop).

Basically it's Freelancer 2, Chris Roberts combines the failure modes of a number of infamous industry figures - Molyneuxs willingness to say anything, John Romeros overspending, George Broussards flightiness and endlessly chasing graphical fidelity and Ken Levines perfectionism and willingness to through out finished work for not meeting his vision.

Maybe people shouldn't have given $141 million to someone who has never delivered a game on time or budget or without sinking the studio?

 

[Spuck-uk]

Over the last 2 years, Foundry 42 (the UK developer) have spent somewhere in the region of $50m (based on their 2015 accounts).

There is no way that a 'large part' of $140m could be refunded, even if they wanted to.

They could still be sued for it if they fail to deliver.

 

[~Cross~]

Interesting, are there any other public figures for the sister studios?
My guess of $30m a year for the entire project is obviously way too conservative

Only the UK ones because those are the only ones obligated to report by UK law.

I dont think the UK studio burned through 50m already in two years. Its more likely they spent around 35-40m unless the costs to get the artists and rent out imaginirium were attached to it.

Often times you can summerize an efficient games company burning through 10m dollars every year for every 100 employees it has. CIG has over 350 right now without counting contractors. So they are probably well over 40m a year right now.

 

[Spuck-uk]

Only the UK ones because those are the only ones obligated to report by UK law.

I dont think the UK studio burned through 50m already in two years. Its more likely they spent around 35-40m unless the costs to get the artists and rent out imaginirium were attached to it.

Often times you can summerize an efficient games company burning through 10m dollars every year for every 100 employees it has. CIG has over 350 right now without counting contractors. So they are probably well over 40m a year right now.

Time for a new ship* sale!


*jpeg

 

[TheOfficeMut]

OK.

• Working on final art assets before stuff such as whiteboxes, greyboxes, or technical requirements for gameplay have been nailed down, resulting in endless redos of ships to support their functions, and requiring further more redesigns to come to support promised but absent features (docking, breaking fighters into components that can be fit into cargo containers for shipping). They have gotten better at this, but only when backers called them out on their process being arse-about-face.
• Misleading backers by pushing internal "pitch" videos as evidence of progress (damage states, Pupil to Planet, Hurston)
• Documented lying to backers about funding, specifically the cost of the lavish furnishings for CR's building which does the least work for the project.
• Poor communication between studios resulting in large quantities of work being thrown out (Illfonic, confirmed by CR)
• Throwing out work because it's fallen behind the technical curve (Streamline Studios work thrown out mentioned in Anniversary livestream)
• Failure to evaluate internal progress and set realistic targets (Chris Roberts actually referred to this as "development hell" in the Kotaku article, judging by their off-by-18 month deadlines, they're still firmly in it)
• Complete absence of technical targets, polycounts, or artistic direction (source: letter by entire UK character art team that walked out, confirmed by CR)
• Chris Roberts wanting new features based on seeing them in other games (as confirmed in the Kotaku article about The Orders character clothing)
• Public videos showing CR changing scope within short deadlines, endless crunch, and treating staff like shit because he set them up to fail (acknowledges being a bully in Kotaku article)
• Widening the entrances and narrowing the exits, i.e. pushing cash-only sales, general inflation of ship concept prices, while changing the TOS to avoid giving backers financials or refunds as promised.

Basically it's Freelancer 2, Chris Roberts combines the failure modes of a number of infamous industry figures - Molyneuxs willingness to say anything, John Romeros overspending, George Broussards flightiness and endlessly chasing graphical fidelity and Ken Levines perfectionism and willingness to through out finished work for not meeting his vision.

Maybe people shouldn't have given $141 million to someone who has never delivered a game on time or budget or without sinking the studio?

I have not followed the development of Star Citizen much at all, but reading this as a layman makes me think that the studio and game are in trouble, specifically the time wasted redoing models and ships. I don't think I need to know shit about game development to know that having to redo work is a sign of inefficiency, regardless of the industry you're in. The reasons outlined for why they're being redone in this case aren't acceptable.

 

[HMD]

What is the most recent gameplay footage?

 

[shootfast]

snip
Basically it's Freelancer 2, Chris Roberts combines the failure modes of a number of infamous industry figures - Molyneuxs willingness to say anything, John Romeros overspending, George Broussards flightiness and endlessly chasing graphical fidelity and Ken Levines perfectionism and willingness to through out finished work for not meeting his vision.

Maybe people shouldn't have given $141 million to someone who has never delivered a game on time or budget or without sinking the studio?

I noticed all those problems are years ago and before erin roberts being made global head of productions.

Also guess who finished freelancer, erin roberts. While we are at it, chris delivered the Wing Commander series.

 

[~Cross~]

I noticed all those problems are years ago and before erin roberts being made global head of productions.

Also guess who finished freelancer, erin roberts. While we are at it, chris delivered the Wing Commander series.

So what you are saying is that Chris Roberts should follow that assholes dereck smarts idea of stepping down and having Erin Roberts take over the entire production of the game? Thats not gonna happen

 

[Outrun]

I have not followed the development of Star Citizen much at all, but reading this as a layman makes me think that the studio and game are in trouble, specifically the time wasted redoing models and ships. I don't think I need to know shit about game development to know that having to redo work is a sign of inefficiency, regardless of the industry you're in. The reasons outlined for why they're being redone in this case aren't acceptable.

Yep,

However, some will say that all of this is part of the iterative development process...

 

[Effect]

What is the most recent gameplay footage?

Any stream on Twitch is the most accurate representation (good or bad) of what is available right now. Do not judge this based on the footage that CIG actually post as all of that is done offline with them largely moving very slowly to hide the frame rate issues. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was done in the editors they're using and not actual builds.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Pretty sure the management's line of thinking is "As long as money keeps coming in, we'll keep at it, just glad to have a job. Then we'll move on to something else.". Otherwise they wouldn't treat the project like it's a Martian Hoover dam project, but like a video game, with a clear set of features that can be delivered in an expected time frame like almost any other video game, I mean that's all it is; a video game.

 

[Akuun]

I think I spent like $45 or $60 when the announcement was first made, but my hype is at 0 for this game at this point. I've stopped following the news around this game because there's just no point trying to stay excited for something that probably won't be out with any degree of polish for another few years.

I just want it to come out. I'm not expecting it to deliver on all of its promises (because really, how can it at this point?) but just make the single-player campaign decent and I'll be happy.

I kickstarted the game because I wanted a polished space sim where I can fly a spaceship and shoot at stuff. All the persistent universe / FPS stuff and 3000 other things that they seem to be working on are entirely secondary to me.

 

[Damaniel]

Any game that sells multi-thousand dollar spaceships before having a fully-featured world to use them in is worthy of at least some scorn.

Are those more expensive ships a form of pay-to-win? If not, why buy them? If so, why would I play a game like this since there's obviously a pool of people rich (or foolish) enough to buy them, which makes the game less enjoyable for everyone else.

 

[WalTech]

I can't wait for Derek Smart's book about Star Citizen. All 600,000 pages of it.

 

[dumbo]

They could still be sued for it if they fail to deliver.

If they fail to deliver, the company will have no funds, so I'm not sure what the point would be.

But currently they are doing refunds if you request it.

Refunds are likely insignificant compared to the running costs of a company with 300+ staff.

And a lot of the $141m seems to have come from 'whales' who have spent absurd sums - as long as the whales don't cash out, the refunds won't be a huge drain.

 

[Vash63]

Any stream on Twitch is the most accurate representation (good or bad) of what is available right now. Do not judge this based on the footage that CIG actually post as all of that is done offline with them largely moving very slowly to hide the frame rate issues. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was done in the editors they're using and not actual builds.

Oh come on. They play it live multiple times (for press plus you can see them playing at the conference on video), at CitizenCon they even had a frame rate display up and opened the CryEngine console at one point.

 

[Dictator93]

And a lot of the $141m seems to have come from 'whales' who have spent absurd sums - as long as the whales don't cash out, the refunds won't be a huge drain.

Hard to honestly tell at some level, as the per citizen pledge amount hovers around a very similar value with ups and downs.

Any stream on Twitch is the most accurate representation (good or bad) of what is available right now. Do not judge this based on the footage that CIG actually post as all of that is done offline with them largely moving very slowly to hide the frame rate issues. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if some of it was done in the editors they're using and not actual builds.

The editor would run worse though than a built version from the .exe. What do you mean exactly?

 

[MetatronM]

What a racket this "game" is. I'm in the wrong business, clearly.

 

[T.Slothrop]

What's the selling point of this game over Elite? Just out of curiosity.

 

[TheOfficeMut]

What's the selling point of this game over Elite? Just out of curiosity.

Was also going to ask this. I understand Elite is coming to the PS4 soon and that game looks great.