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[Funyarinpa]

I think the integral question is whether this worsens Japan's very much real and important problems regarding the sexualization of minors.

Besides that, yeah that's just cringeworthy if not disgusting. If we decided that portrayals like this aren't contributing to rape culture and especially problems specific to Japan though, I have no problems with people buying this (so long as it doesn't bleed into one's personality and view of real events, of course).

Such shit shouldn't be in regular games (it ruins an otherwise appealing and worthwhile game for most), please keep hypersexualization to games obviously made for it.

 

[Dark_castle]

Like hotspring, swim suits are the kind of fanservice I can sort of ignore, though having these on minors are still disgusting but it's Japan, so what can you do. If mainstream games like Persona has no qualms putting high school girls in swim suits, this dlc just seems like an average shit imo.

 

[yaffi]

Would the people defending this buy that costume DLC? I'm a bit confused why this is worth defending. I didn't expect that I'd have to prove that it's creepy when I made this thread. I never said the game shouldn't be allowed to be sold. I never said that if you like the game you're a pedophile. Are people defending it because they like the game and feel that I'm attacking them?

I merely wanted to bring to attention a business practice that I feel has no positive impact on society. Am I wrong? People just feel like "Whatever, let people like whatever they like"? I get that many of you don't see the problem, because these are fictional girls, but where is the line?

I'm interested in the game. I never buy cosmetic DLC. You might not've intended to make people who are interested in the game look like pedophiles or perverts. But it was obvious where the thread was going to head.

So why does it look like people are defending this? Well, because they're getting attacked for potentially liking a USK12/PEGI16/CERO C game with optional DLC.

 

[hidys]

The fact that people are defending this even on NeoGAF makes me wanna drown myself in alcohol. Jesus Christ, how depressing.

It is kind of sad. I really don't think the sexualisation of kids is something to be encouraged.

 

[giancarlo123x]

The fact that people are defending this even on NeoGAF makes me wanna drown myself in alcohol. Jesus Christ, how depressing.

It's fucking disgusting that they're trying to justify. I hope someone monitors shit like this.

 

[Cornbread78]

Also, it's just a thread on gaming side. I didn't realize that GAF threads needed to be defended like a thesis. Instead of poking holes in my organization, if you see the point I'm attempting to make and agree in some fashion, why not assist where you believe I fail instead of trashing my OP?

It's a very sensitive issue on both the gaming and anime side of the Japanese media industry. With that being said, different cultures have different views and tolerances on the issues, so of course, you will get pushback from posters with a different moral compass or have been brought up with a different idea of what is "acceptable" in their culture. Some posters here even have daughters around that age so they are even more sensitive to it because they have a completely different level of perspective being a parent and looking at the sexualization of young girls...

"not my fu(king kids!"

Personally, the bikini stuff doesn't bother me nearly as much as the bath scenes and pure sexual attention they give to these characters within the games themselves; It pisses me off in a lot of cases, especially in the anime....

There are many games that are fun games to play, but have "gross" fanservice for female minors; it's the same in same for the anime/manga industries. Not all Japanese games and all anime have extensive "otaku" pandering, which would prevent people from playing the games or watching the anime... At the same time everyone has a different set of tolerances and has a limit to what they can let go and what they cannot, either way, don't buy the game if you are sensitive to it, and ask other posters specific questions about content in games and anime before you play and or watch..... At least you will be prepared prior or know what to avoid.

 

[Parakeetman]

Wait, are you implying Persona 5 has swimsuit DLC as well? I mean, THE Persona 5?

Congrats Persona 5 fans you are now officially on the FBI watch list.＼(^ω^&#65340( /^ω^)/

P4AN had the same thing with swimsuits that also included Nanako. Though thankfully the costume itself was not anything creepy outside of the fact that you are playing dress up with an character who is an elementary school kid basically if you really want to break it down to the simple basics that folks seem to pass over just due to the popularity of the series.

 

[Lyte Edge]

I merely wanted to bring to attention a business practice that I feel has no positive impact on society. Am I wrong? People just feel like "Whatever, let people like whatever they like"? I get that many of you don't see the problem, because these are fictional girls, but where is the line?

Content in this game is where I draw the line- If you just look at an image of the DLC itself, it doesn't seem like a big deal -just another attempt at getting money through 'fanservice' DLC- but all the pictures of the game zooming in on the characters bending over and such and the blatant sexualization of standard school swimsuit gear on young girls is really off-putting. The shower scene stuff is also more fan service crap, although it looks like everything is covered up and is pretty tame, at least.

I'm all for having some sexy costumes and such on 18+ female characters and whatnot, but I agree that it just seems wrong in this game or at least with the way they're marketing it. I assume there's so much of this stuff because, like with a lot of anime releases/goods, it's the otaku-types who are the majority of the people still buying this kind of content and essentially dictating what is being made because of it.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Yes, minors wears swimmsuits to the beach.

No, is not ok to depict minors in tilltilating swimsuits and poses to the viewer pleasure of grown up males.

 

[Corpekata]

It's Japan, where having a date with underage girl for money was prohibited only in 2016/17.

Different world, different mentality.

PS. Hope you all can direct your anger to Middle East countries where it's super common to "give away" your 12 yo daughter to be a wife of mature man without even a slightest consent from a girl.

First off, Whataboutism is fucking stupid. It always comes off as a desperate and pathetic way to defend something.

Second, your example is hilariously stupid. Like, do you think there isn't a very outspoken movement against child brides or something? Is there an OT thread with dozens of people defending a young Muslim girl being married to a 30 year old I'm unaware of? Do you think if there was a burgeoning Middle East game industry where you picked out your child bride that it wouldn't be controversial in the west?

 

[Hatefilled Vengeance]

Not really sure how Sony gets a pass for allowing shit like this on their store.

 

[Camjo-Z]

I get that many of you don't see the problem, because these are fictional girls, but where is the line?

If they don't see the problem because they're fictional girls, I'm gonna go ahead and say that the line is probably "real children".

 

[cm osi]

Such shit shouldn't be in regular games (it ruins an otherwise appealing and worthwhile game for most), please keep hypersexualization to games obviously made for it.

but it's separate dlc, it's not "in the game". it's only in if you buy it. and those dlcs are obviously made for it

I get that many of you don't see the problem, because these are fictional girls, but where is the line?

i think the line is very hard to miss

 

[FallenGrace]

Amir0x GOTY...

I had no idea what this was till I looked it up. Holy shit...

 

[Kittehkraken]

Age of consent has nothing to do with this. Photos of a minor are still child pornography, even in countries where the age of consent is lower than the age of the person in the photos.

If these lewd Japanese games were even remotely considered child porn, even border line, they would never be allowed into or sold in the United States, Canada etc... etc... It would be a legal nightmare for the publisher and places like Sony (PS store), Amazon or Gamestop who are selling them. That isn't a matter of opinion, its fact. The law doesn't fuck around with child porn.

Creepy? Sure, this is Japan we're talking about. They invented tentacle porn for fucks sake.

 

[yaffi]

Not really sure how Sony gets a pass for allowing shit like this on their store.

Oh, that's easy. The game got official ratings by official boards, that make it officially and legally eligible to be sold on PSN and everywhere else. Officially, mind you.

 

[mao2]

Not really sure how Sony gets a pass for allowing shit like this on their store.

Well, the Japanese rating board CERO approved this game and it's rated C (recommended for ages 15 and above), so...

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

just bikinis guys
respect their culture guys

I want to see someone try and defend this.
Swimsuits are fine. They are worn across all ages but we all know what anime tends to do when it places girls in swimsuits, and they have no objection doing it regardless of how young the girl is.

 

[Lyte Edge]

Not really sure how Sony gets a pass for allowing shit like this on their store.

It's age-restricted and no questionable images are on PSN...just Gust's site. So in that sense, I don't see a problem with them offering the DLC for sale.

EDIT: Although Aizo said there was an ad? I didn't see it in the link to J-PSN he put up.

 

[Joey Ravn]

If these lewd Japanese games were even remotely considered child porn, even border line, they would never be allowed into or sold in the United States, Canada etc... etc... It would be a legal nightmare for the publisher and places like Sony (PS store), Amazon or Gamestop who are selling them. That isn't a matter of opinion, its fact. The law doesn't fuck around with child porn.

Creepy? Sure, this is Japan we're talking about. They invented tentacle porn for fucks sake.

I never said that this game is considered child pornography. I was talking about age of consent in general terms, since the person I was replying to was equating it with age of majority. Did you even read the message I was quoting? Let me say it again, since you are clearly missing the point: if you are in possession of sexual material concerning a 17-year-old person, it doesn't matter if the age of consent is 16 years old: that person is still a minor and that material is considered child pornography.

It's not that hard to understand. But, hey. Nice strawman. And the mention of tentacle porn was a master whataboutism!

I want to see someone try and defend this.
Swimsuits are fine. They are worn across all ages but we all know what anime tends to do when it places girls in swimsuits, and they have no objection doing it regardless of how young the girl is.

Don't worry. There are plenty of people in this thread already. You get all the classics:

"Minors wear bikinis in the beach!"
"They aren't real people!"
"Yes, but X is worse!"
"Yes, but nobody complains about violence!"
"OP is pushing his agenda and making me look like a pervert!"
etc.

At least they are not 1000-year-old dragons this time...

 

[Parakeetman]

Not really sure how Sony gets a pass for allowing shit like this on their store.

Falls within the age rating that was issued in this case by CERO in Japan.

CERO is a bit odd with things as for example the cock bat in Saints Row (forgot which one) got changed to literally just a flexible foam stick. Also clothes were added onto one of the characters during a cutscene where he was supposed to be naked.

Am not sure how they handled stuff like in Watch Dogs 2 or GTA V with the nudists for example that had full frontal nudity on both male & female NPCs. My guess is they would have had mosiac added. Dont have the JP version of either game so have not confirmed this myself.

With JP games in general that are rated by CERO the JP devs seem to leave out actual nudity and go with pushing the boundary as much as possible with the whole soap / light flash / random object covering up the bare minimum. The whole sexual situation type of stuff such as Senran Kagura being one common example is just controlled by the rating issued. Where if a dev gets a rating they are unhappy with due to their content then said dev scales back whatever it was that obtained them the higher rating.

Sony will basically pass anything that adheres to their submission guidelines and has been approved by a rating board for said region.

 

[Merc_]

The fact that people are defending this even on NeoGAF makes me wanna drown myself in alcohol. Jesus Christ, how depressing.

I take it that you never saw that old Criminal Girls thread that got nuked. This is not surprising for gaf at all.

 

[Jangowuzhere]

Would the people defending this buy that costume DLC? I'm a bit confused why this is worth defending. I didn't expect that I'd have to prove that it's creepy when I made this thread. I never said the game shouldn't be allowed to be sold. I never said that if you like the game you're a pedophile. Are people defending it because they like the game and feel that I'm attacking them?

I merely wanted to bring to attention a business practice that I feel has no positive impact on society. Am I wrong? People just feel like "Whatever, let people like whatever they like"? I get that many of you don't see the problem, because these are fictional girls, but where is the line?

I just don't see why there has to be a "line." If a game got too crazy or weird with this stuff, then stores could always choose not to sell it. They could also pull it from stores if the outrage was large enough.

 

[Brazil]

Oh, they have FFXV costumes in. Neat.

 

[thegriz]

There is two issues here:

There is an attempt to cash in on the exploitation of minors in Japan. Such as high school maid bars. Its an issue, but not a cultural wide phenomenon everyone is looking to partake in.

There is an overuse of the term sexualization of characters. This probably is sexualization, but we have gone on a vendetta against it that every character must dress modestly like we are puritans. There is no reason if you want to depict a character who is attractive, male or female, that they can't dress to show off themselves. People do it in real life. So its a bit hypocritical if we say we must cloth anime characters in the west when generally we also want self express our body to people if we choose to do so.

 

[BlackJace]

Amir0x GOTY...

People keep bringing up this dude when talking about stuff like this. Did I miss something?

 

[squall23]

I was just browsing the PSN store, and saw this featured. The game always struck me as a Sailor Moon-like, high school girl, friendship focused JRPG. I know games often have the swimsuit DLC, but c'mon. Isn't there enough sexualization of high school girls in Japan? You can debate all you want about the sexualization of women in media, but can we at least agree that turning underage girls into sex objects is obscene and unreasonable?

The game feels more like this due to the fantasy setting

except with much more of the pandering and none of the CLAMP charm.

People keep bringing up this dude when talking about stuff like this. Did I miss something?

Oh dude...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1398718

 

[Parakeetman]

I take it that you never saw that old Criminal Girls thread that got nuked. This is not surprising for gaf at all.

Think there has been multiple threads that got closed in the past on similar topics. This was what Id personally consider the more infamous one due to the amount of news it generated with Tom from Xseed having gotten banned in it due to his viewpoint and comments made.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1137056"]Does too much fanservice in games bother you?

 

[Lyte Edge]

There is two issues here:

There is an attempt to cash in on the exploitation of minors in Japan. Such as high school maid bars. Its an issue, but not a cultural wide phenomenon everyone is looking to partake in.

There is an overuse of the term sexualization of characters. This probably is sexualization, but we have gone on a vendetta against it that every character must dress modestly like we are puritans. There is no reason if you want to depict a character who is attractive, male or female, that they can't dress to show off themselves. People do it in real life. So its a bit hypocritical if we say we must cloth anime characters in the west when generally we also want self express our body to people if we choose to do so.

In this case, it's blatant sexualization- they are wearing skimpy, 'slutted up' school uniform "swimsuits" in a lot of those screenshots posted.

 

[Kittehkraken]

I never said that this game is considered child pornography. I was talking about age of consent in general terms, since the person I was replying to was equating it with age of majority. Did you even read the message I was quoting? Let me say it again, since you are clearly missing the point: if you are in possession of sexual material concerning a 17-year-old person, it doesn't matter if the age of consent is 16 years old: that person is still a minor and that material is considered child pornography.

It's not that hard to understand. But, hey. Nice strawman. And the mention of tentacle porn was a master whataboutism!

I clearly misunderstood ur quote, It happens. No straw people.

 

[hodgy100]

I'm pretty Sure OP is from Japan?

Which would make the "you prudish americans" comments rather amusing.

 

[BlackJace]

The game feels more like this due to the fantasy setting

except with much more of the pandering and none of the CLAMP charm.

Oh dude...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1398718

Son of a bitch fam

 

[TheMrPliskin]

There is two issues here:

There is an attempt to cash in on the exploitation of minors in Japan. Such as high school maid bars. Its an issue, but not a cultural wide phenomenon everyone is looking to partake in.

There is an overuse of the term sexualization of characters. This probably is sexualization, but we have gone on a vendetta against it that every character must dress modestly like we are puritans. There is no reason if you want to depict a character who is attractive, male or female, that they can't dress to show off themselves. People do it in real life. So its a bit hypocritical if we say we must cloth anime characters in the west when generally we also want self express our body to people if we choose to do so.

Nobody is saying that. Also this is blatantly sexualisation, I can't see how you could look at the in game screenshots people have posted and argue otherwise.

 

[jstripes]

Ya, that's pretty gross. But that's been the trend for a while in Japan. The otaku in that country need to grow up.

To everyone defending it by citing other works with swimsuits: It's all about the context and intent. If characters are going to the beach for a day, then ya, it's acceptable. If the focus is on the skimpy swimsuits, complete with purposely titillating camera angles and obvious sexualization, then you've crossed into creepy fap-bait territory.

It is possible to have characters in swimsuits and not be creepy. This is creepy.

 

[Cornbread78]

Congrats Persona 5 fans you are now officially on the FBI watch list.＼(^ω^&#65340( /^ω^)/

P4AN had the same thing with swimsuits that also included Nanako. Though thankfully the costume itself was not anything creepy outside of the fact that you are playing dress up with an character who is an elementary school kid basically if you really want to break it down to the simple basics that folks seem to pass over just due to the popularity of the series.

well, I'll be...... I never would have guessed that Persona wasn't above this type of swimsuit nonsense... time to forget the game exists dammit!

I take it that you never saw that old Criminal Girls thread that got nuked. This is not surprising for gaf at all.

Also be reminded that mods, including Evilore himself, are quick & swift in action to perma ban anyone posting questionable material when it comes to minors..

Many of us have seen first hand the carnage that can be left with mass bans because of this shit.....

In short, be careful what you post and what you defend; don't be stupid people.....

 

[thegriz]

Nobody is saying that. Also this is blatantly sexualisation, I can't see how you could look at the in game screenshots people have posted and argue otherwise.

I said this is probably sexualization. I also said exploitation of minors is a problem in Japan. I am not sure how I argued against this. .

 

[hodgy100]

I take it that you never saw that old Criminal Girls thread that got nuked. This is not surprising for gaf at all.

You are surprised that gaf works in accordance with many countries laws when it comes to indecent images of minors?

 

[SmokedMeat]

Pretty sick how pedophilia gets a free pass with some. What kind of adult wants to play games with little girls dressed to titilate?

 

[Pandora012]

Not really sure how Sony gets a pass for allowing shit like this on their store.

You know that nintendo has it's fare share of games that do this, right? And besides Sony hardly gets a pass, when ever there is an iffy game on vita we see a thread on gaf. That said, the game is rated in many regions as others have mentioned

 

[Du2andal]

Man, the world would be so much less confusing if everyone else could just adopt our cultural values and hangups. Maybe we could start a fundraiser to airdrop some GTA over Tokyo and set them on a moral and righteous path?

Products of different cultures will carry baggage, good and bad. Experiencing a piece of that culture and what makes it unique is sort of the joy. If you don't like a particular product then don't partake. That is a totally appropriate response. This constant hair-pulling over problematic aspects of foreign entertainment doesn't help anything and instead just allows an opportunity for people here to signal their own impeccable virtue (while consuming problematic content of their own). Maybe let Japan do Japan?

If you are looking to advance the cause of women and other at-risk groups, perhaps turn your eyes toward the nation of Qatar, you know, the state-funder of the news outlet cited in the OP?

Human Rights Watch

Here are some highlights:

"Provisions of Law No. 22 of 2006, Qatar's first codified law to address issues of family and personal status, discriminates against women. Under article 36, a marriage contract is valid when a woman's male guardian concludes the contract and two male witnesses are present. Article 57 forbids husbands from hurting their wives physically or morally, but article 58 states that it is a wife's responsibility to look after the household and to obey her husband. Other than general provisions on assault, the penal code does not criminalize domestic violence. Marital rape is not a crime."

"Qatar's penal code punishes ”sodomy" with one to three years in prison, and under Sharia law, which applies to Muslims, any individual convicted of zina (sex outside of marriage) can be sentenced to flogging (non-married persons) or the death penalty (married persons). According to media reports, dozens of people have been given flogging sentences—ranging from 40 to 100 lashes—since 2004, including at least 45 between 2009 and 2011."

So, to be clear: We criminalize sodomy and flog the hell out of people for sex outside of marriage but have you seen how messed up Japan is?

But by all means, lets continue to rend garments over over swimsuits on fictional characters. There are plenty of opportunities in the world to be outraged if that is your thing but maybe start by protecting the rights of actual people. Once you make some progress on that first order problem then move on to to knock-on effects of media.

 

[Phu]

well, I'll be...... I never would have guessed that Persona wasn't above this type of swimsuit nonsense... time to forget the game exists dammit!

The first scene of P4 is Rise in a bikini and advertising a beverage.

 

[Pantz]

Ok after seeing the shower scene from the youtube link someone posted earlier (don't want to quote it), this game can't really be defended. Surprised it's actually coming out here.

 

[Joey Ravn]

I said this is probably sexualization. I also said exploitation of minors is a problem in Japan. I am not sure how I argued against this. .

He's talking about the "everyone has to dress like Puritans" part of your post. Honestly, I would also like to see sources or examples of what you mean by that. Because it seems to me that you're implying that the cure is worse than the disease...

 

[texhnolyze]

Congrats Persona 5 fans you are now officially on the FBI watch list.＼(^ω^&#65340( /^ω^)/

Tbf, I remember that some folks, including me, did express our disappointment regarding the sexualization in the OT several times. Though it's not about the swimsuit. Most of the scenes involving swimsuit don't contain sexualization, except for that Futaba bit with all the close ups. Most of the sexualizations in Persona 5 involve harassments from the guys, whether it's by verbal or action.

All I'm saying is that Persona 5 isn't trying something like this, at least.

just bikinis guys
respect their culture guys

 

[Forward]

'Creepier than average'?

With average needing a trench for its limbo.

 

[jstripes]

Ok after seeing the shower scene from the youtube link someone posted earlier (don't want to quote it), this game can't really be defended. Surprised it's actually coming out here.

It's like some people don't have the circuitry in their brain to detect when things go over a line... or they're just defending their questionable tastes.

 

[rochellepaws]

I want to see someone try and defend this.
Swimsuits are fine. They are worn across all ages but we all know what anime tends to do when it places girls in swimsuits, and they have no objection doing it regardless of how young the girl is.

Depends what your assertion is. I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't distasteful.

 

[thegriz]

Man, the world would be so much less confusing if everyone else could just adopt our cultural values and hangups. Maybe we could start a fundraiser to airdrop some GTA over Tokyo and set them on a moral and righteous path?

Products of different cultures will carry baggage, good and bad. Experiencing a piece of that culture and what makes it unique is sort of the joy. If you don't like a particular product then don't partake. That is a totally appropriate response. This constant hair-pulling over problematic aspects of foreign entertainment doesn't help anything and instead just allows an opportunity for people here to signal their own impeccable virtue (while consuming problematic content of their own). Maybe let Japan do Japan?

If you are looking to advance the cause of women and other at-risk groups, perhaps turn your eyes toward the nation of Qatar, you know, the state-funder of the news outlet cited in the OP?

Human Rights Watch

Here are some highlights:

"Provisions of Law No. 22 of 2006, Qatar’s first codified law to address issues of family and personal status, discriminates against women. Under article 36, a marriage contract is valid when a woman’s male guardian concludes the contract and two male witnesses are present. Article 57 forbids husbands from hurting their wives physically or morally, but article 58 states that it is a wife’s responsibility to look after the household and to obey her husband. Other than general provisions on assault, the penal code does not criminalize domestic violence. Marital rape is not a crime."

"Qatar’s penal code punishes “sodomy” with one to three years in prison, and under Sharia law, which applies to Muslims, any individual convicted of zina (sex outside of marriage) can be sentenced to flogging (non-married persons) or the death penalty (married persons). According to media reports, dozens of people have been given flogging sentences—ranging from 40 to 100 lashes—since 2004, including at least 45 between 2009 and 2011."

"We criminalize sodomy and flog the hell out of people for sex outside of marriage but have you seen how messed up Japan is?"

But by all means, lets continue to pull our hair out over over swimsuits on fictional characters. There are plenty of opportunities in the world to be outraged if that is your thing but maybe start by protecting the rights of actual people. Once you make some progress on that first order problem then move on to to knock-on effects of media.

This is a red herring logical fallacy. Yes everyone agrees stuff in middle east is bad and much worse. Yes its wrong to think everyone should conform to our social norms. However, it has nothing to do with the fact depiction of minors in a clear sexual way is wrong. Which is what we are talking about here.

 

[Parakeetman]

well, I'll be...... I never would have guessed that Persona wasn't above this type of swimsuit nonsense... time to forget the game exists dammit!

Also be reminded that mods, including Evilore himself, are quick & swift in action to perma ban anyone posting questionable material when it comes to minors..

Many of us have seen first hand the carnage that can be left with mass bans because of this shit.....

In short, be careful what you post and what you defend; don't be stupid people.....

Not even Etrian Odyssey was safe from this with the Hidden Hot Springs DLC which added an event scene and conveniently covered portraits of the bathing characters. Granted the characters are not school kids, but goes to show that its a pretty common thing that is being constantly added into various titles these days.

SAO LS had the Bathtowel and Bikini DLC. Then again thats SAO where fanservice is a huge part of it regardless of the characters age. So that falls under the same category of what the OP is concerned with.

 

[AtomskEater]

well, I'll be...... I never would have guessed that Persona wasn't above this type of swimsuit nonsense... time to forget the game exists dammit!

I was about to say "at least P5 didn't do all those camera angles as in the collage above" but then I remember the anime scenes did some male gaze-y stuff, like... any time they could shove the camera down Ann's top. Nothing's perfect, lol. We already had pretty extensive threads on how P5 fucked up some stuff.

I do have a certain tolerance for these things, but I was somewhat disappointed to hear about the shower scenes, see-through clothes, etc in Blue Reflection. I just want a cool rpg about magical girls without tons of ham handed titillation.