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[OCD Guy]

You obviously have no clue whats going on in the world.

So if I was to jump in the shower with your sister, who then says no, and I go away I have not harassed her? Be honest dude and stop being so facetious.

If my sister then got into a relationship with you I'd wonder what the fuck she was thinking?!

She forgave him, and apparently put it down to a drunken mistake Evilore made, she couldn't have been that traumatised then.

 

[SuperBanana]

Flirting doesn't mean someone wants you to kiss them though?

That could make someone feel uncomfortable too.

True but if you think there might be something there and lean in for a kiss they'll pull back. You can play it off as a bit of drunken silliness and forget about it. It's not sexual abuse. Stripping naked IS.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Could appreciate some feedback here, because it appears people are arguing over something they don't know?

The original FB post to my recollection never said if he physically touched her or not. Which is the fine point between Sexual Assault and Sexual Harassment. Exposing yourself to someone without their consent is Sexual Harassment, being naked and rubbing yourself against someone without their consent is Sexual Assault.

To me knowledge no one said that he touched her, but no one said he didn't either. I mean you can read into it, but she didn't say Sexual Assault. At least that's what Kotaku is reporting.

 

[psychowave]

On her own opinions as a woman.

If you had been drinking with her all night and she decided to share a hotelroom with you and leave the door open then she would understand why you missunderstood. She wouldnt like it but she wouldnt accuse you of sexual harrasment either.
Its a mute point though, since we are married and neither of us would share a hotelroom with someone of the opposite sex. Especially not after a night of heavy drinking.

Let me say again. What he did was not okay and he should definately come clean and say yeah I fucked up and missread her signs.

But if what he did affected her so much then why would she go ahead and sleep with him shortly after?
My wife certainly wouldn't sleep with you if she felt you acted like a creep towards her on a earlier occasion.

All that beeing said, the other things that have surfaced (sexual assault, revenge porn) and his handling of this whole situation paint a very bad picture of him and I will be leaving gaf.

It is just this one incident that I felt weird about due to what happened to her, happening to me.

Your wife doesn't represent all women and she definitely doesn't represent the one in this story. What she thinks doesn't matter.

 

[dpunk3]

Well yeah. Just gives the impression that it's more about undercutting the other side's credibility instead of addressing the criticism itself.

Not really sure why we're debating hypotheticals in the first place, though.

But it's ok for him to call her unstable so he can undercut her credibility?

What the fuuuuuuck did I just read.

 

[archreaper93]

So does that mean all OT threads will be gutted? That really sucks, because there's a lot of threads there I had bookmarked (mainly reccommendation threads).

Don't suppose there's any way to save those, is there?

 

[nature boy]

If anyone from PoliGAF is reading, could you send a discord invite? Thanks.

 

[Jacce]

What really is depressing is how NO ONE is talking about the history of behavior.

Did all of you really forget the time EL in anger posted revenge porn against a girl?

Did deleting all posts about that really wipe it from GAF's memory?

EDIT: I would love a discord invite to PoliGAF if it is still out there...

 

[PhantomThief]

If my sister then got into a relationship with you I'd wonder what the fuck she was thinking?!

Why? You dont even know me lol.

 

[Zen Aku]

That't not really harassment though. It resulted in agreed coitus. Evilore made a play, and it eventually paid off. Some people buy roses, others get butt nekkid and jump in a shower. Same result in this case.

Seems like this woman was in mood to stir shit. It worked.

This is a really, really terrible post. You should be ashamed of yourself if this is what you truly believe.

 

[Saganator]

But it's ok for him to call her unstable so he can undercut her credibility?

What the fuuuuuuck did I just read.

The new and improved NeoGAF, bud.

 

[PhantomThief]

If my sister then got into a relationship with you I'd wonder what the fuck she was thinking?!

She forgave him, and apparently put it down to a drunken mistake Evilore made, she couldn't have been that traumatised then.

Right. So why is he trying to undercut her credibility by calling her mentally unstable?

 

[psychowave]

Someone just got banned for posting resources for abused women, wew

 

[Dirtyshubb]

The new and improved NeoGAF, bud.

Ah so this is the open and free discussion Gaf was apparently stifling.

No wonder those people were calling for it all this time, its great

Spoiler

Its not

 

[DarkestHour]

Horrible in what way? It's a lot of great users.

Constant bashing of Americans. Constant bashing on police. Just complete trash that should have been its own politics/"I hate America" sub-forum. Seriously, it was nothing but "OMG FUCK DONALD TRUMP" constantly.

 

[Lyng]

Your wife doesn't represent all women and she definitely doesn't represent the one in this story. What she thinks doesn't matter.

He asked what my wife would say in her situation, I answered. Fucking read you idiot.

 

[Montresor]

The problem with GAF is mainly that as an outsider it's REALLY complex to understand all the baggage of the "meta".

The moderation was/is a problem insofar a user has no idea about what's allowed and what's not.

For example I've observed that verbal abuse is fine... As long it's targeted at people that the moderation doesn't like, but it's then of course not tolerated in all the other cases.

And that's FINE too. I understand this is a community where people can vent off. It has a certain orientation that has a certain deliberate purpose. It wants to protect a certain category of people that are, so to speak, under the weather in real life. And because of what they get in real life, these people have the right to obtain small exceptions to the rules. To have a place where they can vent off and express legitimate frustration.

But again, this can be hardly understood by someone who comes here and suddenly observes that rules aren't applied uniformly.

It takes quite a bit of time to understand what is allowed and what is not, and quite frequently moderators would misunderstand what is being written just because at a superficial glance it looked like coming from a "rival" general opinion that they have a moral right to wall off.

This sort of general behavior, that I just said is legitimate and acceptable (after you understand how it works and can adapt to it) also has consequences that are not good, though.

It favors an extremism of opinions. When there are situations that are complex and nuanced the role of GAF as a community was always about drawing a very distinct line of "us versus them". To rally the troops and "close ranks". If there's some controversy about Boogie or Pwediepie or whoever, the role of GAF was to build distinct categories to frame these personalities. The role of GAF was to remove nuance and ambiguity in order to push away all legitimate doubt. Make clear cut distinctions. Orientate the part of the community that still had doubts. So for GAF Pewdiepie is always disingeuous, 100% nazi, 100% the enemy and the living embodiment of what the community should fight.

That's why you very often read in the comments something evoking "the hill to die on". As if one person cannot have a variety of opinions, but had to always get in some kind of war and defend just one single thing as the ultimate act that is asked of him/her. There's always this rhetoric of "going to war", that is never conductive of a civil and moderate discussion.

I don't want to discuss the specific case again, but just to underline that GAF had the purpose of drawing those sharp distinctions and labeling people so that they would be turned into targets. To remove all traces of doubt. So that the community could reinforce its identity and fight some projected enemy outside. This is never a good thing, it only builds higher walls and creates progressively more intolerance among people.

If in real life a person is a complex entity that comprises a multitude of ideas and behaviors, some good some bad. For GAF you only become a label. It's either enemy or friend. Instead of trying to encourage people to change for the good, GAF liked better to take them to the ground and beat them. To cut ties and carve out pieces of itself.

And the end result is that communities instead of unifying and sharing what they have, increasingly become antagonistic and turn on themselves, and... splinter...

The community turns on itself and breeds misunderstanding and hate.

Whenever a diplomat shows up, you shoot the diplomat in the head. Because you don't want to build bridges, you want to burn them. And yet, this will never lead to a better world. It doesn't work, and it's very sad to see it happening again and again.

When you are at war, complexity, nuance and doubt can only undermine your survival. So I can understand that people right now legitimately *feel* at war in today's world. But the more we plunge into this scenario, the more things are getting worse. (cue Fallout meme)

This post explains why I may not be returning to GAF when all the dust settles.

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

That't not really harassment though. It resulted in agreed coitus. Evilore made a play, and it eventually paid off. Some people buy roses, others get butt nekkid and jump in a shower. Same result in this case.

Seems like this woman was in mood to stir shit. It worked.

I bet you also believe in friend zones.

 

[Jacce]

Do we all really think EVERY mod would quit in protest (which they did) if EL had a logical explanation for them?

Think about that.

 

[OCD Guy]

Why? You dont even know me lol.

It wasn't personally directed towards you. More the scenario you gave.

If my sister told me she was sexually harassed, I'd be shocked if she later told me she got into a relationship with that same person. I'd want to know why.

 

[Kyzer]

If you had been drinking with her all night and she decided to share a hotelroom with you and leave the door open then she would understand why you missunderstood. She wouldnt like it but she wouldnt accuse you of sexual harrasment either.

"Well why would the bathroom door be slightly open unless obviously that's a signal for me to take my clothes off and come in and have sex with you!?"

Yes that makes total sense

 

[ExVicis]

Yeah, but there has been a tidal wave of really distasteful comments which makes me think that this is not part of a community I want to identify with, particularly if they hang around and the respected members, those with interesting stuff to say, those that put time and effort into building decent threads, are out.

I will wait and watch, but over the course of one day it’s turned sour.

That's completely fair. You're right, even some long respected members are shitposting/going around saying garbage. So it's fair to think that. But I'm going to wait and see regardless. Everyone's in mob mode and the trolls that slipped their accounts in are of course going to come out in droves. When everything settles, the proper moderation will come in and clear out a lot of this while everyone else calms down and lets clearer heads prevail.

 

[psychowave]

He asked what my wife would say in her situation, I answered. Fucking read you idiot.

chill bruh

 

[w0s]

I'm not defending EL or anyone who sexually harassed but holy shit am I sick and tired of all you perfect people. Oh I'm cognizant of this, I realize that, I know every PC way to behave in the book, and people need to burn if they are on board with this. It must be nice for most of you to be so perfect. To understand every social issue in depth and formed a strong opinion that then is projected on others.

I find this place is better most of the time to find issues to rage about then it is to enjoy discussing games. You people must be seriously taxing on those around you.

 

[WinterIsComing]

Wow I came to post about the latest DBS episode, and... WTF, when did the forum go to the Upside Down?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

But it's ok for him to call her unstable so he can undercut her credibility?

What the fuuuuuuck did I just read.

Not sure. Maybe you should follow the quote chain up-thread by a few clicks.

Hurrrrr

 

[Saganator]

Do we all really think EVERY mod would quit in protest (which they did) if EL had a logical explanation for them?

Think about that.

From what I hear, they patiently waited for a statement. I posted what he said to mods at the top of this page. They all dipped out as soon as they read his BS victim blaming (she's bi) statement. Kudos to them.

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

On her own opinions as a woman.

If you had been drinking with her all night and she decided to share a hotelroom with you and leave the door open then she would understand why you missunderstood. She wouldnt like it but she wouldnt accuse you of sexual harrasment either.
Its a mute point though, since we are married and neither of us would share a hotelroom with someone of the opposite sex. Especially not after a night of heavy drinking.

.

You're answering your own god damn question by bringing up alcohol. She wasn't feeling and inebriated, so shame on her for not closing the door all the way.

 

[Nepenthe]

To everyone suddenly asking why she left the door open if she didn't want Evilore on her ass:

Are we forgetting the fact that the woman was vomiting all over the place?

Gee, I know when I'm in physical distress, I act with perfect rationality.

Fuck out of here.

 

[Old Empire.]

Right. So why is he trying to undercut her credibility by calling her mentally unstable?

She was friends with him and had a sexual relationship with him after the shower incident, maybe the reason? Do you not think it weird to bring this up after having sex with the person, who is allegedly harassing you?

 

[Lyng]

chill bruh

Sorry man, but what you posted is clearly how things are, but I was simply answering a question, not trying to say my wifes opponion matters more than the other womans or something like that. But yeah sorry about the attack.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

He would you call it if I suddenly and uninvited joined your shower?

An awkward attempt at making a pass at me.

And later called her mentally unstable

Which is pretty shitty.

This too.

This entire incident is so benign compared to the sexual assault cases in the news that he could have said,

"The incident she accounted was mainly accurate, I was rejected after making a drunk move at a horrible time and while she was in a relationship, I didn't push it further when she said no".

Wow, so hard to just admit that your nice guy facade failed that you had to smear her and say she was mentally unstable!

Yup.

That could have been said immediately but well look at what we got instead.

Largely "innocent" attempt at making a pass versus coming off as a creep.

 

[Kyzer]

I'm not defending EL or anyone who sexually harassed but holy shit am I sick and tired of all you perfect people. Oh I'm cognizant of this, I realize that, I know every PC way to behave in the book, and people need to burn if they are on board with this. It must be nice for most of you to be so perfect. To understand every social issue in depth and formed a strong opinion that then is projected on others.

I find this place is better most of the time to find issues to rage about then it is to enjoy discussing games. You people must be seriously taxing on those around you.

Sexual assault is not hand eye coordination, it's not an accidental mistake like dropping a pencil, it doesn't take some kind of virtuous hero to not sexually assault and be against sexual assault and quite frankly the idea that it might is a clear indication of your idea of how hard it is to "control" these things that you conisder natural human behavior

 

[Markoman]

In the same very damn article: https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...ct-allegations-rocking-neogafs-last-48-hoursd

Evilore said to Waypoint:





You want to tell me these are the words of a guy who realizes he did some heinous shit?

Alright, let's go back to the question I've asked you before, shall we? What are you still doing here?

Interested in my answer? Right know, I don't care...I have no business with this man in rl. I'm just a visitor to his website. I don't even agree to the philosophy of this site as a whole (the censorship). I like certain parts very much, and ignore the parts I don't like and try to play by the rules. How about you?

You can either be me (head in the sand, because how will I know what's true at this point) or be team account sepukku. Anything in between is hypocrisy or at least a little bit naive imo.

 

[RedNalgene]

I spent a decent amount of time last night trying to figure out whether or not I wanted GAF in my future. I spoke with my wife about it too, so I can get a woman's perspective. Although this post will likely get buried in the overall discussion, I needed to get my thoughts out on the forum.

The part that I keep coming back to is that this woman felt that EL's actions were enough to warrant the event's inclusion in her #metoo post, along with other sexual assaults she has experienced. Full stop. There were only two people in that room, and one felt like the other's actions constituted sexual assault, and that's enough for me. Whether or not one of us would classify it as an assault doesn't matter in this case. Our opinion of the action doesn't matter. Whether or not he would get arrested for his actions doesn't matter. He obviously did something that was patently wrong, even though he hasn't apologized for it (though he doesn't deny doing it). I don't need to hear the full details, I don't need to get any proof. It's enough for me to know that she felt assaulted to know that I don't want to stand on EL's side.

Add this to the victim blaming and lack of apology for something that clearly bothered another person and it led me to decide that EL is not someone I'd like to support. I love this community, and have spent lots of time on the site (mostly lurking), but ultimately my clicks help to line EL's pocket. I'm going to move on to SLAENT and Waypoint and be done with this site, at least as long as EL is involved. It bums me out to no end, but I can't, in good conscience, support someone like EL.

I hope everyone takes an introspective look at the situation and makes the best decision for him/her as possible.

 

[Drame]

What I get from Evilores statement is a bunch of words with no hearth behind them. Community large as Gaf needs and deserves better and the way whole incident was handled has been abysmal. Not even starting to think about what the moderation team had to go through. I don't agree that closing OT "solves" anything. More or less it creates a way more hostile atmosphere. Like many posters have said that OT had a lot of good in it and people making contributions. Just to name a few really valuable and great threads: mental health, weight-loss or even a plain old thread of living in Japan. While I haven't been a vocal poster for a very long time I always enjoyed checking out what was new on the gaming side or just grab a tv-show / book recommendation from OT. Just because suddenly OT is "bad" for gaming doesn't warrant a total deletion.

Also, I feel that anonymous moderation doesn't help the conversation. I have never felt that I was treated unfairly by the moderators, not even once. More like if there was a thread were a moderator was also a active poster I felt that the conversations were more interesting and in-depth.

I feel like Gaf is a empty husk of its old self. When Gaf came back up the posts that I saw were really strange and not something I would expect to see in Gaf (and I'm not speaking of the account suicide posts / threads). I don't really know what future holds for Gaf or will I keep reading the forum in the future. The way that some posters say this will only make things better I have hard time believing. Logging back to neogaf after the whole incident has been like walking to your home after a burglary. It is your home, sure, but some of you belongings are not were they were supposed to be and some have been lost forever. Neogaf was a community with ups and downs but some of my favourite gaming related memories came from gaf and for that thinking that there might not be a memories like those makes me sad.

I do feel embarrassed that I had completely no clue about the earlier incidents before this or the whole Amir0x thing. Those I heard from the latest Waypoint podcast. As a member of this forum I should have known better and for that I apologize.

 

[SuperBanana]

Someone just got banned for posting resources for abused women, wew

The alt-right is in fully force.

 

[psychowave]

Sorry man, but what you posted is clearly how things are, but I was simply answering a question, not trying to say my wifes opponion matters more than the other womans or something like that. But yeah sorry about the attack.

It's all good. I just kinda get tired of the "well MY girlfriend/wife thinks it's okay, sooooo" kinda comments that always pop up when a woman speaks out about sexual harassment. Sorry if that wasn't your intention.

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

Alright, let's go back to the question I've asked you before, shall we? What are you still doing here?

Interested in my answer? Right know, I don't care...I have no business with this man in rl. I'm just a visitor to his website. I don't even agree to the philosophy of this site as a whole (the censorship). I like certain parts very much, and ignore the parts I don't like and try to play by the rules. How about you?

You can either be me (head in the sand, because how will I know what's true at this point) or be team account sepukku. Anything in between is hypocrisy or at least a little bit naive imo.

I'm here because im sick and tired of this victim blaming, hand waving bullshit. By all means keep your head in the sand and pull the "but the rest of the world" card out when people put up a fight. It's clearly working out well for you

 

[vonStirlitz]

[Redacted as the member no longer wishes to be associated with this website, and the reputational damage and distress caused by association with this website. In addition, the user considers that the action of the management, and the nature of the site and members of its community, renders the original terms and conditions of this site void, and it unconscionable for either side to be bound to them. The user reasserts their IP rights in all content and does not give any authority for its continued usage on this website. Despite requesting that the user's account be deleted, in accordance with data protection rules which apply to this website over multiple jurisdictions, the admin team have failed to delete this account, requiring the user to take its own steps to ensure the valid deletion of data.]

 

[Lyng]

You're answering your own god damn question by bringing up alcohol. She wasn't feeling and inebriated, so shame on her for not closing the door all the way.

So you want me to go out and publicly shame my former friends for missreading my signals. Even though they accepted my no?

 

[Zen Aku]

.

 

[dpunk3]

Not sure. Maybe you should follow the quote chain up-thread by a few clicks.

Hurrrrr

Then you're contradicting yourself. Either he didn't do anything wrong and she is unstable as I've seen you argue before, or neither of them are unstable and it's fucked up to suggest that from either of them, at which point he is still accused of sexual assault from a sane, normal person with no reason to doubt her claim as she gets nothing from it.

Pick a side and stick to it.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

I've been here since 2005. I've lurked here long before that. I guess GAF was sort of my safe space and I used it as a crutch in some ways too. Sorry to disappoint some people, but I'm not going anywhere.

GAF is GAF's users, and if the site can take a turn for the better then that's great and I'm all for it. I'll try to be a part of that change.

I'm also pretty ignorant, it takes me a while to figure stuff out. So as of now I'm riding this storm out for a bit to see what happens. I'm simply not going to knee jerk react to this ordeal. A portion of my life was invested here. If you feel betrayed or hurt by what has happened, and leaving is your next step, then you have my sympathy. I'm concerned, confused, a little torn, and anxious myself. I have my own thoughts, and beliefs until proven otherwise, on the matter.

In my opinion, If the majority here truly feel the owner isn't the right person to run the site, instead of shutting it down or jumping ship, why not demand a new owner? Or maybe an appointed overseer or something? I just find it odd so many people want to see gaf nuked over allegations that are just that, allegations.

 

[Jacce]

Again the point I find baffling so few are mentioning is the history. This is just one of many incidents.

His history of grabbing women at bars against their wills (we have had multiple GAF members in the past state they witnessed this), him posting revenge porn against a ex.

It creates a pattern that makes one unlikely to trust him on this.

In my opinion, If the majority here truly feel the owner isn't the right person to run the site, instead of shutting it down or jumping ship, why not demand a new owner? Or maybe an appointed overseer or something? I just find it odd so many people want to see gaf nuked over allegations that are just that, allegations.

Almost everyone would come back if EL stepped down.

 

[Kyzer]

So you want me to go out and publicly shame my former friends for missreading my signals. Even though they accepted my no?

How did you go from misreading signals to trying it out by shedding your clothes and joining that person for a shower


This is unacceptable. Even trying for a kiss without really knowing for sure is awkward, not sure where you grew up but just getting butt naked is not how you test a signal

 

[TarpitCarnivore]

Someone just got banned for posting resources for abused women, wew

where?

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

It creates a pattern that makes one unlikely to trust him on this.

You shouldn't trust anyone involved.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

Then you're contradicting yourself. Either he didn't do anything wrong and she is unstable as I've seen you argue before, or neither of them are unstable and it's fucked up to suggest that from either of them, at which point he is still accused of sexual assault from a sane, normal person with no reason to doubt her claim as she gets nothing from it.

Pick a side and stick to it.

Citation needed.

 

[MrKaepora]

Are you volunteering to mod thousands of posts? You're being very unreasonable here

What's the difference between moderating OT and gaming side? Or is the gaming side full of angels?
And why is it that we have no mods?

Another person pretending I'm saying something again in order to win an argument and look good? Is this the only tactic some of you guys have when there's no argument left to be had?

Then what are you saying.

The Hitler and Stalin was just a methafor but if you wish to test someone's moral, give him power.