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Tomb Raider PS4 Pro version vs PC Maxed out 4k screenshot comparison
- Thread starter Wishmaster92
- Start date
Rotch Crot
Banned
This is not the case. Upscaling 1080p to 4k means taking 1 square pixel and dividing it perfectly into 4 squares. It just cuts a horizontal and vertical line through. The square keeps its exact square shape.
Now imagine taking 1 square and evenly cutting it into 3 smaller squares. You cant. There has to be some color bleed or nearest neighbor type scaling going on that results in a blurred image.
It depends on the technique. Not all use temporal sampling.
If temporal sampling is being used, it can be argued the final frame has more than ~4m pixels worth of 'unique' valid info contributing, to some greater or lesser extent. How much more is rather dependent on various factors.
GhostTrick
Banned
Yes. And everything is being called out for being a native technique or not. That's what we have terms like "real time shadows" "pre baked lighting". Because in 3D rendering, there's a distinction between things being done the native or real time way and others achieved with tricks. 4kinda or checkerboard isn't native 4k. Case closed.
So if I use UE4 TAA at 4k, I'm rendering 132710400 pixels per frame?
Don't be silly.
See above.
It depends on the implementation. 1080p, 2 million pixels. Using doubling the frame up to a framebuffer equaling x2 1080p is 4 million. Fill in the rest with other frames for a final re-projection.
I'm not arguing in favor of OnQ's point, just making it clear that the technique will give results different from a 4 million pixel frame because its being reprojected with other frames.
I don't actually think there is an actual fixed 'resolution' we can point to for this technique, its just a blend of a lot of different pixels from various frames to form a base image.
This technique has nothing to do with upscaling.
You simply have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
The "final buffer" is 4k if the Xbox one S upscales a sub-1080p image just as much as it is 4k if my PC downsamples a 6k image to 4k.
The number of pixels in the final buffer is completely irrelevant.
Rotch Crot
Banned
Maybe we should use the terms internal and external resolution.
GhostTrick
Banned
Who was arguing about how it is a more efficient way to render to 4k ? Yeah, lol indeed.
Mine wasn't a comment on how many samples are being shaded per frame, but how many valid and individually calculated samples (in this frame, previous, previous to previous!), may be usable toward the current final frame. In that one frame it's 4m pixels of new information in this case, but the total information contribution to the final frame may be more with temporal sampling. It's worth mentioning and worth the distinction, the contribution of prior information that is still valid can be non-negligible to the quality of the final resolve as you know. Obviously though, this is a rising tide that lifts all boats, and not just sub-native games trying to appear better.
Sad Affleck
Member
Are you seriously trying to argue about graphics technology and rendering with Durante? Why?
Rotch Crot
Banned
They have in common the defense of the final number of pixels on the screen regardless of how much useful information there in that amount of pixels.
Lanrutcon
Member
This thread delivers.
GhostTrick
Banned
Nah, it's like checkerboard, a name for a rendering technique which allows to render your games higher than you display resolution :")
How is the number of unique pixels in the final buffer completely irrelevant to the resolution?
Rotch Crot
Banned
Lol you guys suck for making fun of my autocorrect mistake.
That LOL wasn't even a reply to him it was to people trying to tell me that it's not the same as native 4K when I never said it was & I used a old reply because people keep saying the same thing.
I'm all for clarifying our use of terms, but I think the best way to do that is to move closer to what is actually happening. For example, we can discuss the
- Number of samples shaded per frame,
- How they are distributed
- If temporal accumulation happens, and how
- Whether there is a spatial morphological component
Because when you disregard how those final pixels are produced there is no difference between a native image, an upsampled image, a downsampled image, or a temporal reconstruction.
Rotch Crot
Banned
This where I will see myself out. I don't give even have half the amount of fucks to learn what any of that means.
That's the thing I'm not saying that this is the same thing as Immediate 4K & I have explained that over & over again.
GhostTrick
Banned
Dictator93
Member
Are you making up words as you go along?
dr_rus
Member
What's "Immediate 4K"? Is it nowrendering?
Checkerboard rendering is not 4K rendering, up or down, because it doesn't actually render 3840x2160 pixels, it renders half that and then reconstructs the rest from either the rendered pixels or using previous/next frame as a source of additional information for pixels which weren't rendered.
Otherwise you can render one pixel in the center of 3840x2160 buffer, fill the rest with zeroes - and you've got yourself 4K rendering, mate.
You mean, mandate all games to run at 1080p60fps? That would not work. A lot of engines dont even support going above 30fps, like Horizon's engine. And the CPU of the console generally speaking is not strong enough to enforce such an overbearing standard.
Chaplain
Member
Do we know if Sony has stated that if a game is upscaled to 4k, that the game has to run 30fps without drops? I ask because I won't be choosing 4k on any game if games aren't guaranteed to run at 30fps. For the amount of money they are requiring for their new hardware, frame rate performance is just as important as image quality to me.
MisterXDTV
Member
Technically the game must have at least the same frame-rate of the original PS4.
As you said if frame-rate won't be stable enough at 2160p, you can force 1080p output and you will resolve the issue.
But I think 30fps will be locked in most cases. This is not native 2160p
Chaplain
Member
Will the built-in upscaling on 4k TVs match how the Pro upscales to 4k in any/similar ways?
dr_rus
Member
Impossible to answer as the way a game reach 4K output on the Pro is completely game dependent. There are games already (TESO for example) which will actually render in 4K on the Pro.
Maybe the not the best analogy, but the best I could think of. IE the 720p/1080p (lastgen) vs 1080p/4K (thisgen) Not the same in scaling or "standards", was just trying to get a point across that 1080p handled sub-1080p fine/better then a 720p-"compatible" set would. (And did not hear anything of the sort then)
There is where the "misconception" part kick in. People seems to think it's 1080p or 4K or bust. If scaling was that simple (or that in-advanced) you might be right, there is more going on then just adding one pixel horizontal&vertical. You have to remember, even if it's technically scales "better" from 1080p, is still scaling from a image with twice as less detail as 1440p. That is, even if 1440p scales less "ideal" then 1080p, is still scales from a image with twice the detail.
The exception could be pixel art (as someone mentions earlier), as increasing resolution does not add more detail, unlike 3d rendering.
As said, not an expert, maybe wrong, just using common(?) sense
Chaplain
Member
How different do you think just upscaling a Pro game with the built-in scaler on a 4k TV look compared to the rendering the game on the Pro in 4k? I apologize is I am being redundant in my question.
Your 4K TV upscaling the image is completely different from the checkerboard rendering of the internal framebuffer of the game, or 4K native rendering, or even upscaling of the console done with 4K output support.
They are completely different things, all of them
Rotch Crot
Banned
Maybe the not the best analogy, but the best I could think of. IE the 720p/1080p (lastgen) vs 1080p/4K (thisgen) Not the same in scaling or "standards", was just trying to get a point across that 1080p handled sub-1080p fine/better then a 720p-"compatible" set would. (And did not hear anything of the sort then)
There is where the "misconception" part kick in. People seems to think it's 1080p or 4K or bust. If scaling was that simple (or that in-advanced) you might be right, there is more going on then just adding one pixel horizontal&vertical. You have to remember, even if it's technically scales "better" from 1080p, is still scaling from a image with twice as less detail as 1440p. That is, even if 1440p scales less "ideal" then 1080p, is still scales from a image with twice the detail.
The exception could be pixel art (as someone mentions earlier), as increasing resolution does not add more detail, unlike 3d rendering.
As said, not an expert, maybe wrong, just using common(?) sense
Then why does 1440p look considerably worse than 1080p on KY 4k?
Chaplain
Member
Thank you. Understood.
These are the types of questions that the average consumer might have. It would be beneficial for Sony to answer all of these types of questions before the PRO is released. If people like myself are somewhat confused, I can't image how the average consumer will view it.
dr_rus
Member
Anywhere from not different at all (for games which will for some reason render in 1080p and upscale to 4K with simple bicubic or lanczos) to very different (for games which will use some resolution reconstruction tech or actually render in 4K).
My experience is quite the opposite. That is 1440p looks considerably better then 1080p on my 4k tv, at least in my personal opinion.
Chaplain
Member
Thank you.
ethomaz
Banned
That is not true at all unless the upscaled algorithm is better with 1080p than 1440p but I really think it is hard to happen.
1440p will look sharper than 1080p in a 4k display.
lowhighkang_LHK
Member
Also isn't the PS4 natively rendering on games like Horizon/Days Gone a custom resolution somewhere in between 1440p and 2160p? I think Digital Foundry said it was around 1800p?
ethomaz
Banned
Yeap... it is over than 2x1080p that means over 4.1 million pixels.
For example, the PS4 Pro 4K upscaler(what happens when you select "4K" in the menu's)alone will provide a notably clearer image than the original PS4 at 1080p output on a 4K television.
Because the original PS4's highest supported output resolution is 1080p, what will happen is the 4K television will attempt to upscale the native 1080p image to its $K pixel ratio. But PS4, since the only supported output is 1080p, the image will automatically be downsized again to the 1080p resolution.
Scaling the game twice will introduce a lot of detail lost, and scaling artifacts, than if you simply scaled the image once, from the original 1080p image to the 4K output of the screen. Your taking away one an entire scaling step.
Its not natively rendering, its reprojection.
Its not 1800p. The image is double pixel count of 1080p(or slightly above 1440p), which is then filled in with additional pixel information from other frames.
That 2nd scaling doesn't make sense to me, like why.
Because the output of the PS4 is 1080p. There is no 4K output on game consoles prior to Xbox One S. The TV has to recognize that the console is properly scaling with the TV, or else it will further use the console's internal scaler to downscale a second time.
I still don't even
Okay so we have a PS4 and a 4k tv.
The ps4 outputs 1080p, my tv upscales it once to 4k.
Where is this scenario is this 2nd scale happening?
It doesn't. I am not sure what he is trying to say.
I'm guessing that he/she is talking about games that are not 1080P on PS4 being scaled to 1080P by the console then scaled to 4K by the TV.