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[NeoGash]

Why wait for Forza 6?

http://www.xboxworld.com.au/home/2013/12/01/forza-motorsport-5-review/

Ouch, from an xbox magazine as well....

Yeah, Forza 5 didn't get as good reviews as the other Forza's, though it did get in the range of Horizon, which is f'ing insulting given Horizon was impeccable and Forza 5 was a stripped down weaksauce game. It's tough love IMO, and I'd rather give a low score like a 5/10 or 6/10 than a 9/10 for being more of the same. More of the same isn't good enough, it needs to really evolve. What Forza does it does very well, but unfortunately it doesn't do enough IMO. Turn 10 seem arrogant, as they were rated top racer since they came out basically, and now people are getting sick of it finally.

I was hoping Forza 5 would blow us all away, but it ended up being a big disappointment for me. Sure, I haven't played it, but I was only really excited for it because I thought it would have night and weather, as well as much less aliasing. CoD MW3 is no doubt a good game, but I'm not going to buy it when I can get the same experience from MW1 and MW2.

I was also hoping Forza 6 would finally break this crappy cycle T10 have been following, where they make excuses and somehow that is alright. Going by Dan's words, it seems we aren't getting night/weather ever. Maybe that's why they (Playground) made Horizon..... I hope he is just making us pissed off and extremely disappointed so that when they do reveal Forza 6 with all this awesome shit, we are blown the hell away. I'm not that optimistic though, especially given their track record.

 

[Pwn]

...But have you seen GT5, a year 2010 game with daynight circle, weather and 1080p@60fps?

 

[NeoGash]

...But have you seen GT5, a year 2011 game with daynight circle, weather and 1080p@60fps?

Even more embarrassing, it was from 2010. It wasn't full HD 1080p, but impressive nonetheless. Polyphony have always been technical wizards, bit I fear the equivalent of them on the Xbox aren't working at Turn 10 sadly They are working at Playground Games, who are made up of ex Bizzare employees (Project Gotham Racing). Polyphony would probably make a better looking GT on the XB1 than T10 would with Forza on the PS4.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

One of my all-time favorite racing games delivered night racing and dynamic weather effects... over 13 years ago.

Man that game was awesome. I bought a Madcatz racing wheel to play it.
Dynamic weather & time of day. Simulated 24-hour race.
So much fun; challenging and rewarding.

I guess it's excusable for a new racing sim to not have these features, but certainly not one in its 5th release version.

 

[rjcc]

Hanging on every lightly written interview for hints of rain / night is a bizarre behavior.

On their list of things to do, they didn't think that lacking (insert feature) would impact sales enough to invest the time to make it happen.

Unfortunately, I think they're mostly right, my 3rd, 4th and 5th questions about a new racing game aren't "CAN I RACE IN THE RAIN / AT NIGHT??"


*shrug*

 

[NeoGash]

Hanging on every lightly written interview for hints of rain / night is a bizarre behavior.

On their list of things to do, they didn't think that lacking (insert feature) would impact sales enough to invest the time to make it happen.

Unfortunately, I think they're mostly right, my 3rd, 4th and 5th questions about a new racing game aren't "CAN I RACE IN THE RAIN / AT NIGHT??"


*shrug*

Eye C wot U did thar

 

[R1CHO]

I'll gladly admit my ignorance as to why night racing requires a different physics model. Can you enlighten me?

It doesn't require a different model, just a change of variables.

 

[Jabba]

One of my all-time favorite racing games delivered night racing and dynamic weather effects... over 13 years ago.

Then again, Turn 10 can't even deliver realistic looking race spectators so I suppose we shouldn't be asking for much.

That game was fantastic. Not only did it have dynamic time/weather, it was also, full fucking grid. Not 8 or 16 cars. The full 24 cars.

VGA resolution at 60fps.

On a side note, I'm not a great GT fan but graphically/technically, it can impress. No doubt.
I've seen slowdon once during a race and sometimes the pre-race sputters some.

Don't forget, it's also doing adaptive tesselation.


You could be right. I could be mixing it up with Sega GT or my recall is bad. Probably the last one. lol


I played the hell out of it too. The first 24 hour race I did 19 hours straight, then napped for 2 hours and finished.

 

[TAJ]

That game was fantastic. Not only did it have dynamic time/weather, it was also, full fucking grid. Not 8 or 16 cars. The full 24 cars.

VGA resolution at 60fps.

It was a technical marvel and I also played the shit out of it.
But I'm pretty sure it was 30fps. My Dreamcast is currently non-functional, so I can't check.
I think it was the first console game with aniso.

 

[ionicbluebird]

T10's problem is they didn't really think ahead when designing their engine.
OR the 2 years cycle doesn't give them the time to completely redo their engine between chapters.

As far as driving AND racing go, FM5 is probably the best racer available on consoles, but the engine is holding them back.

How is FM5 a better racer than GT?

 

[EGOMON]

First thing come to mind when i read the title:
"DRM isn't a switch we can just flip"

lol T10 riding on Forza 4 success and forgot what matter in sim-racers

 

[dragonelite]

First thing come to mind when i read the title:
"DRM isn't a switch we can just flip"

lol T10 riding on Forza 4 success and forgot what matter in sim-racers

The driving or weather and day and night transition?

 

[NeoGash]

The driving or weather and day and night transition?

'ForzaVista' and micro-transaction galore or weather and day and night transition?

 

[Fried Food]

Poor showing on MSs part. They should have pumped the necessary resources into this to ensure the expected features were present

 

[EGOMON]

The driving or weather and day and night transition?

Driving physics and environment.
I don't care how good looking a car in garage mode when they drive like an arcade racing game on a static boring world

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

This just makes me think there are a lot of smoke and mirrors to make tracks look decent this time.

I'm sure you could pretty easily take some flat empty field and quickly make a time of day and weather change simulator. There could be a lot of fudging in the track lighting that frees up bandwidth for car detail and lighting.

I also alway wondered how much the performance of these cars are simulated, and how much they might be handcrafted to "feel" like a Porsche. Maybe adding rain doesn't mean adjusting a slider that applies to all cars, and maybe it means fine tuning the performance of every car in the rain.

 

[Metalmurphy]

...But have you seen GT5, a year 2010 game with daynight circle, weather and 1080p@60fps?

No we haven't actually. It wasn't either 1080p or a stable 60fps. But yeah you still have a point.

 

[eso76]

How is FM5 a better racer than GT?

how ? Because you actually race against opponents and not with drones moving along the track.
Because collision physics are actually simulated.
Physics themselves are better in some cases (worse in others).
But there's another thread for that

 

[ShapeGSX]

Even more embarrassing, it was from 2010. It wasn't full HD 1080p, but impressive nonetheless. Polyphony have always been technical wizards, bit I fear the equivalent of them on the Xbox aren't working at Turn 10 sadly They are working at Playground Games, who are made up of ex Bizzare employees (Project Gotham Racing). Polyphony would probably make a better looking GT on the XB1 than T10 would with Forza on the PS4.

It also wasn't 60fps.

 

[Xanadu]

Yeah, until you get rear ended on the last lap or something.

Until Forza introduced it to me, racing games in general were missing checkpoints. I welcome the rewind function.

i think its good for arcade racers, but sims? no thanks

 

[transformer]

How is FM5 a better racer than GT?

The graphics, sound, and AI are all vastly superior. In particular, playing against the AI feels like actual racing and the AI abide by the same physics as the player. So no rubber banding or wonky collisions. Additionally damage modeling is actually realistic. You can damage aero, drivetrain components, etc. that all affect performance. You can have standing starts. The clutch actually behaves like a clutch. Those are a few things of the top of my head that make forza a better racer.

 

[EvaristeG]

meanwhile, gt6 is doing 1440x1080 with dynamic time and weather on the ps3, worked on by only 140 people.

let's just put that into perspective, dan.

... with half PS2 graphics, bad framerate and PS1 era sounds. No thanks.

 

[brotkasten]

Dan did a pretty honest interview before or around E3, where he answered some of the harder questions and that showed that they just don't have the priority to be a simulation that caters to the sim-crowd. All I read into that interview is that they basically want to make big and pretty car games. And I guess it shows. The Forza games seem to be more car simulators than racing simulators and if that's their ambition, then more power to them.

... with half PS2 graphics, bad framerate and PS1 era sounds. No thanks.

You can blame the framerate and sounds, but the physics in GT6 are pretty good.

 

[EvaristeG]

Dan did a pretty honest interview before or around E3, where he answered some of the harder questions and that showed that they just don't have the priority to be a simulation that caters to the sim-crowd. All I read into that interview is that they basically want to make big and pretty car games. And I guess it shows. The Forza games seem to be more car simulators than racing simulators and if that's their ambition, then more power to them.



You can blame the framerate and sounds, but the physics in GT6 are pretty good.

He was talking about the presentation. GT5/6 have this half old gen feel to them, you can't deny it. It's like a PS3.5 game and a PS2 game at the same time.

 

[phosphor112]

He aimed the comment at both consoles and so was I. But hey, I hear GT6 has great damage modeling. ;-)

Completely relevant to the topic. Smh. Clearly PD isn't excused from their shit sound and damage, but go ahead and try to make it sound like it is.

 

[Anion]

Forza 5 is not even a Forza game let alone a next gen title. It sad that, they think everything is ok. Forza 6 will just be forza 5 with some of the missing cars and tracks from forza 4. It am shocked every time I go an look to buy a car in forza 5 that the veyron is dlc. It make me feel like I got jacked out of my 60 bucks. Ohh you want to check out the world's fastest street car in a game you just paid for? Ohh that will be another 10 bucks!

Um...uh. Have you played any Forza game? Cause it's obviously a Forza game. And it looks certainly more impressive than F4. Like I can tell which tracks are redone.

I'm pretty sure if T10 did not have to make a launch game, F5 would be even better. Actually, it is one of those games I could have waited like Driveclub, just so it could be improved.

 

[Metalmurphy]

... with half PS2 graphics, bad framerate and PS1 era sounds. No thanks.

You can have a day/night cycle + weather race with a full grid of 16 premium cars if you want... We did it all the time on the NRL. And the framerate isn't "bad", it's just isn't a stable 60fps 100% of the time. During online races it's basically the first 10-20 seconds of the start of the race and thats it.

 

[Red Chocobo]

One of my all-time favorite racing games delivered night racing and dynamic weather effects... over 13 years ago.

Rad Racer released in 1987.

It had night racing and even a 3D mode!

 

[anchorman128]

Turn 10: Nighttime racing & weather "isn't a minor thing" to add in Forza

Well, shoot I could have told you that. That's why it wasn't a minor thing to exclude from your game either T10.

 

[vvise]

night time physics =\

 

[Principate]

'ForzaVista' and micro-transaction galore or weather and day and night transition?

Don't you get it's a perfect sim, now you can simulate the feeling of not being able to afford a car. Other models can't compete.

 

[runnin_blue]

Everything they publicly say about this game seems to be bullshit. Just saying.

 

[HokieJoe]

Driving physics and environment.
I don't care how good looking a car in garage mode when they drive like an arcade racing game on a static boring world

Forza doesn't drive like an arcade racer.

 

[HokieJoe]

Completely relevant to the topic. Smh. Clearly PD isn't excused from their shit sound and damage, but go ahead and try to make it sound like it is.

GT6 is the culmination of many years on the same hardware and it's an impressive looking game. I already knew that GT6 had night and weather racing. My only reason for posting in this thread is to learn what the issues are with Turn10/Forza- not comparisons with GT and the inevitable BS that always brings to threads.

 

[Natureboy99]

Lazy devs,

Gt6, on 7-8yr old hardware knocking out 1440x1080 @ near 60fps with dynamic weather, dynamic lighting and day/night cycles.

This. GT5 had it too. PD are just better developers, and from the simulation stands point GT has always been the better franchise.

 

[HokieJoe]

Oh no...



Are people seriously asking for it to be patched in? It is such a clear huge step forward. Even for a new iteration, I think they would need more than 2 years to do something like that well without sacrificing other aspects of their games.

I don't know actually. I was just clarifying my expectations.

 

[HokieJoe]

Another example.

Here's another good example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhNjFvfMvC4

 

[HokieJoe]

This. GT5 had it too. PD are just better developers, and from the simulation stands point GT has always been the better franchise.

I realize you have an opinion and I'm all for adding context to discussions, but Forza/GT comparo's can crater a thread in no time flat. So please, stick to the topic of this thread, okay?

 

[phosphor112]

GT6 is the culmination of many years on the same hardware and it's an impressive looking game. I already knew that GT6 had night and weather racing. My only reason for posting in this thread is to learn what the issues are with Turn10/Forza- not comparisons with GT and the inevitable BS that always brings to threads.

The point is, is Dan keeps making bullshit excuses. For FM3 and 4, they said power (which is bullshit because PS3 can do it). For FM5 they said it "isn't a minor thing" to add. It's clear they just aren't invested in it. If they were, they could have been building an engine to accommodate it when they hit the Xbox One. Instead, they're putting all their resources into wasting polygons and cutting the track and car counts in half.

 

[CozMick]

I haven't picked up GT6 [yet], but from what I've read the 1440x1080 is prone to noticeably dip below 60 when you kick up dirt on the side of the track, for instance. At 720p it's reportedly not an issue.

On 8 year old hardware.

 

[Hoo-doo]

For some amazing semi-nighttime racing, go and do a time trial on Matterhorn at dusk in GT6.

It blew me away with how amazing that looked. The sun barely peeking over the mountaintops with the fantastic coloured skies, it's lovely.

 

[brotkasten]

On 8 year old hardware.

I'm sure other competent developers could've pushed their games to silly resolutions by sacrificing a stable framerate. The 1080p mode in GT is stupid nonsense.

 

[AlanzTalon]

On 8 year old hardware.

On hardware they have had 8 years to learn, revise, and master. Let's see where Forza is 8 years and 2 releases from now.

 

[phosphor112]

I'm sure other competent developers could've pushed their games to silly resolutions by sacrificing a stable framerate. The 1080p mode in GT is stupid nonsense.

Yep.

On hardware they have had 8 years to learn, revise, and master. Let's see where Forza is 8 years and 2 releases from now.

Wait... so what's the excuse for Forza 4? And the fact that the Xbox One is "X time faster" than the Xbox 360 means nothing to you?

Just shit excuses is all I hear.

 

[transformer]

This. GT5 had it too. PD are just better developers, and from the simulation stands point GT has always been the better franchise.

So long as you are not worried about simulating the sound of cars, AI of other drivers, standing starts, damage to cars, aerodynamics, or a properly working clutch, GT has it in spades. Okay, I was exaggerating a bit there. In all seriousness, GT is quite fantastic in many regards and a top tier sim, but there are other franchises that do simulation of the aforementioned items much better.

 

[Metalmurphy]

So long as you are not worried about simulating the sound of cars, AI of other drivers, standing starts, damage to cars, aerodynamics, or a properly working clutch, GT has it in spades. Okay, I was exaggerating a bit there. In all seriousness, GT is quite fantastic in many regards and a top tier sim, but there are other franchises that do simulation of the aforementioned items much better.

What's wrong with the aerodynamics simulation in GT6?

Also, big lol at standing starts. That sure takes alot of "simulating". Stick to online races if you want them that much.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

I find Forza 5 quite depressing.

God forbid all devs took the approach that was taken to this game for their next-gen games. The fundamental problem is that it plays exactly like the older versions but in a higher res. The slap in the face is the stripped out features.

But of more concern is the unwillingness by the devs to push stuff that should be in big-budget racing games on powerful new hardware.

Like day-night cycles, weather. And why are the cars still driving through tiny, stereoscopic stages. DriveClub next to this is like night and day. Excuse the pun.

 

[transformer]

What's wrong with the aerodynamics simulation in GT6?

Also, big lol at standing starts. That sure takes alot of "simulating". Stick to online races if you want them that much.

Drafting and tuning the aero in GT allows for grossly unrealistic speeds. There is something wrong with the simulation. Additionally if you try to drag race or have standing starts in GT you will quickly see the car will launch very straight regardless of wheel spin or surface. I actually redlined and dumped the clutch in GT with one tire on the asphalt and one on the grass. The car went straight...

 

[brotkasten]

Also, big lol at standing starts. That sure takes alot of "simulating". Stick to online races if you want them that much.

Apparently it does take a lot of simulating, because, like you said, they sucked in GT5 and there was no reason for them to be that bad. Whenever this gets mentioned, half of the people always say "well yeah, but standing starts suck anyway, because you'll be first by the first corner". Then why not try to improve the AI and make it start and defend right after the start, instead of basically calling defeat, giving up and removing it altogether?

 

[anthonyOA]

It's frustrating hearing Dan talk like this (being a forza fan).

If a motorstorm guys can do it on their first sitting Turn 10 should be driven to better that. Fans and critics have really done them a favour sticking by them. It's time to pay back that faith.

Forza is a franchise with so much potential that fans are justifiably upset when the opportunity to put the fans' desires first is squandered due to trying to scheduling (trying to meet launch).

Forza 6 has no excuses basically.