Mainly due to 1080/720p? 30fps, they took this hit and made good graphics and a dynamic lighting engine. To even get decent visuals out of F5 running on a not so well known box, they probably didn't have enough headroom for improved visuals and dynamic lighting. Not saying it's acceptable, but that's probably why.
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Turn 10: Nighttime racing & weather "isn't a minor thing" to add in Forza
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
Mainly due to 1080/720p? 30fps, they took this hit and made good graphics and a dynamic lighting engine. To even get decent visuals out of F5 running on a not so well known box, they probably didn't have enough headroom for improved visuals and dynamic lighting. Not saying it's acceptable, but that's probably why.
Diablohead
Member
At this point we will go into the next-next generation and have more things cut out.
It might not be perfect but having a track with a lower brightness and car headlights on is all we are asking for turn10, i'm sure some tracks can fall under that.
Bizarre Creations did it well enough in PGR 4, just look at what they did with existing tracks to apply weather.
Horizon was a technical marvel. It was indeed 720p/30FPS, but it had 4xMSAA and added FXAA when the game could spare it. It also had zero screen tear and zero FPS drops, plus the open world nature and day/night cycles, I think it is one of the most technically outstanding games on console. What i tame from this is that either Playground studios (Forza Horizon) are better developers than Turn 10 on the technical side, or that the physics calculations in the Forza sim series is really that much harder to do.
In either case, it does not explain how they still do not have night racing or weather effects in Forza 5. It really makes you appreciate Gran Turismo that much more. For all the shit Polyphony get for being 'lazy', at least they gave us night and weather as apparently it is super hard to do (I don't buy that shit, they are a AAA developer and should fucking look like it. As far as I'm concerned the best games technically on the 360 are not ones made by T10).
I actually agree with you. I also disagree that F1 is the "highest" motorsport any more. It's a glorified spec series. All of the innovation now happens in endurance racing. Le Mans and the Nurburgring 24 hour races are the kings.
Diablohead
Member
Back when forza 2 and 3 were being made their excuse was not enough power to do everything, now that we are in a new generation they now say it's too much overhead or takes too long.
It's going to be a never ending cycle of excuses.
Night racing doesn't need to be pitch black, give us 5am races or 9pm races where the sky is dark blue and the track needs that extra light from the headlights, forza 4 kind of goes there with one of it's tracks being at early dawn, but that's it.
It's going to be a never ending cycle of excuses.
Night racing doesn't need to be pitch black, give us 5am races or 9pm races where the sky is dark blue and the track needs that extra light from the headlights, forza 4 kind of goes there with one of it's tracks being at early dawn, but that's it.
Lazy Jones
Member
F1 definitely has the most prestige but DTM has the most fun racing in my opinion.
Diablohead
Member
FM1 was way too ahead of it's time it seems with Tokyo, the docks and the speedway all having night time racing with multiple car shadows going on as you play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPHITmDSm5g
FM1 also had your car paint left on walls if you crashed into them, in online races you could tell by about lap 3 which corners everyone would crash in to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPHITmDSm5g
FM1 also had your car paint left on walls if you crashed into them, in online races you could tell by about lap 3 which corners everyone would crash in to.
aspiegamer
Member
It's a YMMV thing. Both are more challenging for different reasons. Implementing them in games must be a curious matter-- "Most" of the tracks in GT6 have day/night and "most" have variable weather but not all the same ones have both and some only have one or the other. Then some neither, of course. Determining the list for each must have some interesting factors.
Variable and responsive temperatures would be the next step, though. Air and track. Surface wind, too. Hell, why not elevation while we're at it? If they can adaptively screw with lighting and friction coefficients for wet, adding an extra variable at the end of the formula for temperature shouldn't be that hard. Air temp and elevation would be easy to apply as a modifier to max power. The current F1 game series handles this well.
Dynamic winds I can see being a huge challenge, though. I'd never expect a game to go that far.
on average, a new forza game comes out ever two years.
2.
multiply that by the frames per second forza 5 runs at which is sixty.
60.
gran turismo is having its fifteenth anniversary.
15.
my penis is 7.3" in length according to my latest measurements.
7.3.
so that leads to: TWO years x SIXTY frames per second x 15 years of gran turismo x SEVEN POINT THREE INCHES OF CIRCUMSISED COCK = 13140 days.
13140 / 365 years means it will take turn 10 THIRTY SIX YEARS to finally implement weather and and day/night transitions ACCURATELY and with great SCIENTIFIC precision.
there are approximately ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND MILLION stars in our galaxy.
the milky way is only one of MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of galaxies.
so we take those THIRTY SIX YEARS and we multiply them by... ONE MILLION which means that if japan is very serious about honour they will give me thirty six million dollars and a glass of milk or i will be deeply upset
2.
multiply that by the frames per second forza 5 runs at which is sixty.
60.
gran turismo is having its fifteenth anniversary.
15.
my penis is 7.3" in length according to my latest measurements.
7.3.
so that leads to: TWO years x SIXTY frames per second x 15 years of gran turismo x SEVEN POINT THREE INCHES OF CIRCUMSISED COCK = 13140 days.
13140 / 365 years means it will take turn 10 THIRTY SIX YEARS to finally implement weather and and day/night transitions ACCURATELY and with great SCIENTIFIC precision.
there are approximately ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND MILLION stars in our galaxy.
the milky way is only one of MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of galaxies.
so we take those THIRTY SIX YEARS and we multiply them by... ONE MILLION which means that if japan is very serious about honour they will give me thirty six million dollars and a glass of milk or i will be deeply upset
UberTag
Member
One of my all-time favorite racing games delivered night racing and dynamic weather effects... over 13 years ago.
Then again, Turn 10 can't even deliver realistic looking race spectators so I suppose we shouldn't be asking for much.
EmptySpace
Banned
1080p over weather and night racing?
meanwhile, gt6 is doing 1440x1080 with dynamic time and weather on the ps3, worked on by only 140 people.
let's just put that into perspective, dan.
I haven't picked up GT6 [yet], but from what I've read the 1440x1080 is prone to noticeably dip below 60 when you kick up dirt on the side of the track, for instance. At 720p it's reportedly not an issue.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
Warm Machine
Member
I like how MS is the bad guy when Bizarre was an independent developer and MS paid them to dev 4 games, yet Activision was the one who bought and later closed them.
Besides does Playground not have a substantial Bizarre crew on its roster?
Wolfgang Jr
Banned
Except that I just found out last night that FH doesn't have 2-player couch split-screen :'(
lol, Jesus. The game is a lot of fun. I have yet to buy a single credit or token yet I have over 20 cars including the McLaren P1. Races are fun, driving feels great, and the cars and tracks look beautiful. Quit over exaggerating.
Slayer-33
Liverpool-2
Tell me about it, people blow shit out of proportion..
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
I'm honestly just kind of at a loss that Nighttime/weather isn't already in this game. Like... those feel like things that have evolved beyond special, box blurb kind of features and more like a staple of the genre.. especially in this next gen.
Fucking GT6 running circles around your realism on a PS3 is not exactly a great way to roll into your first next gen racer eh?
Fucking GT6 running circles around your realism on a PS3 is not exactly a great way to roll into your first next gen racer eh?
TheFLYINGManga_Ka
Member
Seriously, I'll be honest here, but it's disappointing that after 4 Forza games, five counting Horizon, four of them on the 360, and now we finally have a next generation Forza on XBone and still no weather?
Disappointing.
Disappointing.
MikeOfTheLivingDead
Grapetastic!
I wish he would stop using the word "bespoke". It so fucking pretentious. Everything everyone makes for every game is "bespoke". They supposedly rebuilt everything from the ground up, they could have implemented all this but they didn't think it was important enough to invest in. Now it's bitting them is the ass and they've painted themselves into a technological corner and can't do anything about it.
Yeah, until you get rear ended on the last lap or something.
Until Forza introduced it to me, racing games in general were missing checkpoints. I welcome the rewind function.
PGR2 night races were awesome as well. Chicago, Washington DC, Edinburgh, Moscow! Damn I miss those track layouts. Night racing reduces the number of tracks necessary to maintain variety in a game IMO. You could set up races online races with rain as well. It took getting used to, but it was fun.
Pretty much how I feel about it. I still think FM1 was their best and most honest effort.
That's why I'd rather have night racing. It would be easier to do. I could see where doing weather would be a lot more complicated. Not just only visuals, but the handling as well.
You see? It's all about compromises:
-60 fps
-tire flex
-16 cars for every race
-extensive visual and mechanical damage
but
-no weather changes and wet driving conditions simulated (based on factors like temperature, pressure and humidity, all in real time) which affect the appearance of the track and how cars handle on it
-no time transitions
-no races on snow/gravel/dirt(Horizon is an exception), with specific tires to choose.
-visually speaking, add body/tires collecting grass/dust/snow and smoke dispersion (in Forza all I see are little clouds)
Also combine weather and time transitions on the same race: it's A LOT of work. Those are important factors in a simulator, and in real life of course.
I like forza, I played FM3 and 4 religiously, offline and online, but fanboys must stop praising it like it's always superior. The Holy Grail. It's not.
Compromises. It's the same story for all games on console. There are time and hardware limitations.
EDIT:
With all the power the xbone has, I can't believe they still didn't add what Polyphony achieved 3-4 years ago on an old gen console.
Instead of adding stuff, they removed.
Rush everything to sell a Day 1 game: Must.Get.Monnnneeeey.
-60 fps
-tire flex
-16 cars for every race
-extensive visual and mechanical damage
but
-no weather changes and wet driving conditions simulated (based on factors like temperature, pressure and humidity, all in real time) which affect the appearance of the track and how cars handle on it
-no time transitions
-no races on snow/gravel/dirt(Horizon is an exception), with specific tires to choose.
-visually speaking, add body/tires collecting grass/dust/snow and smoke dispersion (in Forza all I see are little clouds)
Also combine weather and time transitions on the same race: it's A LOT of work. Those are important factors in a simulator, and in real life of course.
I like forza, I played FM3 and 4 religiously, offline and online, but fanboys must stop praising it like it's always superior. The Holy Grail. It's not.
Compromises. It's the same story for all games on console. There are time and hardware limitations.
EDIT:
This.
With all the power the xbone has, I can't believe they still didn't add what Polyphony achieved 3-4 years ago on an old gen console.
Instead of adding stuff, they removed.
Rush everything to sell a Day 1 game: Must.Get.Monnnneeeey.
To be fair, I think the graphical arms race (which graphics whores a very adamant about) and limited console hardware is probably what makes it hard. I'm glad the game is 1080p/60fps but I would settle for 900p/60fps and night racing.
phosphor112
Banned
GT6 is 1440 x 1080 with weather and night racing... on a PS3 with some dips. Turn 10 has no excuses.
NoPiece
Member
It means custom made, and if you have to custom make something, it is new.
I don't think we are ever going to see weather or night in Forza. It seems Greenawalt is just downright against the idea for some reason.
Driving around during the daytime year after year, track after track has become monotonous to say the least.
Variation is the key here and what better way than the hallowed variables of darkness and water?
Driving around during the daytime year after year, track after track has become monotonous to say the least.
Variation is the key here and what better way than the hallowed variables of darkness and water?
He aimed the comment at both consoles and so was I. But hey, I hear GT6 has great damage modeling. ;-)
That and the lack of tracks really hurts the series IMO and I'm a huge fan of Forza Motorsport. The series has a lot going for it really, but the lack of track locations really bothers me.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
The day you watch SuperGt race you will abandon DTM, some of the finest racing goes on in that series.
SneakyStephan
Banned
Well maybe if the xbone hardware wasn't so shitty they wouldn't have had to go with prebaked lighting and shadows and then people could have had day and night cycles instead of microtransactions
I don't think it's because of the Xbox One having poor hardware. It can't be that, seeing as GT6 has them both on PS3. I don't see any other reason than that the developers were lazy.
It seems they can't be fucked changing their engine significantly. Microsoft threw money at 343i, and they made Halo 4 look too good for a current-gen game, but Forza even on next-gen has not accomplished shit. I am not saying weather (lol) the game is good or not, but it certainly isn't pushing boundaries. If Microsoft gave them half as much money as they threw at 343i to make a new engine, Forza might seriously be amazing again. Such a shame, as if you add night racing to every track, it basically doubles the track count IMO and makes the game look and feel infinitely better. I'm surprised they want to try and look 'amazing' graphically, but don't have night racing. You can have a game running on much weaker hardware but look so much better with it.
His words are all bullshit IMO, it seems he'd rather lie to us about MTAs and try to justify them than give us a straight yes or no answer for night and weather. Seriously, if I was a reviewer I'd be docking those points like a motherfucker for Forza 5 and inevitably Forza 6 for not having night and weather racing. It isn't a 'cool little feature' like that useless fucking 'Forzavista' shit that I'm sure most of us used for an hour or two tops, it is a damn necessity. I'm not saying the Forza games are bad (I love the ones on 360), but now they need to do something else or die.
Forza Horizon looks like the only Forza series I'll play now.
His words are all bullshit IMO, it seems he'd rather lie to us about MTAs and try to justify them than give us a straight yes or no answer for night and weather. Seriously, if I was a reviewer I'd be docking those points like a motherfucker for Forza 5 and inevitably Forza 6 for not having night and weather racing. It isn't a 'cool little feature' like that useless fucking 'Forzavista' shit that I'm sure most of us used for an hour or two tops, it is a damn necessity. I'm not saying the Forza games are bad (I love the ones on 360), but now they need to do something else or die.
Forza Horizon looks like the only Forza series I'll play now.
One of my all-time favorite racing games delivered night racing and dynamic weather effects... over 13 years ago.
Then again, Turn 10 can't even deliver realistic looking race spectators so I suppose we shouldn't be asking for much.
I remember playing Gran Turismo 1 on the PS1 and it had night racing (I think on at least one map, a city or Tokyo one). I never played Forza 1 (didn't have an Xbox....but I could play it on my 360 as I think my brother might have it...) but it had night racing apparently....so I don't know why'd they'd go backwards for an entire generation and now what looks to be a second generation. If Forza 6 has no weather or night racing (has to have at least night racing IMO then weather) or any other revolutionary feature (highly doubtful), I hope reviewers destroy it and give it a 6 tops.
Motherfucking Melbourne House. It'll come to a bit of a shock if you fire it up now, but it's still every bit as fun as it was in it's heyday.One of my all-time favorite racing games delivered night racing and dynamic weather effects... over 13 years ago.
Then again, Turn 10 can't even deliver realistic looking race spectators so I suppose we shouldn't be asking for much.
dragonelite
Member
How realistic is weather in GT5 and 6 or is more an visual effect with traction -30?
I for Forza 6 i expect at least time of day transition time to dump the baked lighting i rather take an hit on the lighting quality so it can be dynamic. And give players the option to set time of day for tracks online matches.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
My favourite racing moment this gen was the racing in Nurburgring and Le Mans from sunrise to sunset in GT5. So amazing. I don't know why its taking them so long since this question has been going since FM3 especially considering the size of their team in comparison to PD's.
Marky Mark
Member
Marky Mark
Member
Oh wow, I love this.
Dan, get some of the old PGR4 team on the phone, surely they are bumming around at microsoft studios somewhere. Those guys did weather soooo right!