The Nature Roy
Member
Just like armed drones. And yet when you have an effective, 'sanitary' weapon, it's awfully tempting to use when you otherwise wouldn't do anything.
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Was Dr. Halsey justified, ultimately, in creating the Spartan-II program in Halo?
- Thread starter T'Zariah
- Start date
Just like armed drones. And yet when you have an effective, 'sanitary' weapon, it's awfully tempting to use when you otherwise wouldn't do anything.
Ran Echelon
Neo Member
Yes
whateverittakes
Americans nuked 2 Japanese cities to save both nations from the far greater costs (human & material) of the full-on invasion on Japan. Nuclear bombs have not been used in warfare ever since.
Monocle
Member
Halo 4 is pretty firmly meshed with Karen Traviss's book trilogy (the first two parts, at least. The next book is out this month). What I consider the decline of the character started with Traviss's portrayal. Halo 4 kept her on that trajectory. She showed up briefly in the campaign cutscenes, and was a key figure in the Spartan Ops plot.
That seemed like a very human thing for her to do. I took it as a sign that she was growing as a character when she sidelined her utilitarian values to act on a maternal urge to take care of the people closest to her (who also happen to be the grown up kids whose lives she ruined. Even though they are now paragons of human potential and some of them are grateful. Stockholm syndrome, or something nicer? This is the juicy intrigue I savor.) It was more than a bit twisted and self-serving, but also sympathetic and indicative of the crisis of conscience that emerged as her most important struggle.
Like many of my favorite characters, Halsey was a person of vivid opposites. That's interesting to me. When she's portrayed as a one-dimensional war criminal (a Dr. Mengele, if you will...*cough*), the engaging part, the ambivalence, is gone.
If it happens, I'll be there!
I agree 100 percent. I hate how she is being portrayed. And now after the end of spartan ops wtf. I love the Eric nyland books. 343 and Karen Travis has ruined dr Halsey IMO. It makes me sad. I loved halo 4 still.
V AA D E R
Neo Member
One of those cases where the end justifies the means. She was definitely in the right.
1. Yes.
2. Dr. Halsey is just as liable for the creation of the SPARTAN program as everyone else involved at ONI, and in fact Margaret Parangosky should be the one held most accountable. Parangosky was the head of ONI at the time, everything that Halsey did with the SPARTAN II program was done with her consent. Halsey is a scapegoat, no matter how much Karen Traviss wants us to believe that she's evil.
2. Dr. Halsey is just as liable for the creation of the SPARTAN program as everyone else involved at ONI, and in fact Margaret Parangosky should be the one held most accountable. Parangosky was the head of ONI at the time, everything that Halsey did with the SPARTAN II program was done with her consent. Halsey is a scapegoat, no matter how much Karen Traviss wants us to believe that she's evil.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
So the Spartans were like Kurt Russel in that movie SOLDIER?
soulassssns
Banned
Yes indeed
If you buy the mumbo-jumbo the Librarian was spewing in Halo 4, Halsey's actions were merely the result of genetic tampering by the Forerunner, designed to inevitably produce John 117. So big picture across the whole Halo universe, it was inevitable and Halsey just ended up being the one responsible.
I still say Halo 4 should have ended with Cortana discovering Halsey had been executed for her 'crimes', which drives her into full-on Vengeful Bitch Rampancy, hacking the Prometheans, turning them on the Didact (would have been a better way for him to go than a QTE, that's for sure) and hijacking Requiem and heading straight to earth.
I still say Halo 4 should have ended with Cortana discovering Halsey had been executed for her 'crimes', which drives her into full-on Vengeful Bitch Rampancy, hacking the Prometheans, turning them on the Didact (would have been a better way for him to go than a QTE, that's for sure) and hijacking Requiem and heading straight to earth.
I dunno, if a serial killer killed Hitler as a boy, would he be justified?
It's hard to say "the ends justify the means" when those ends weren't intentional. It was a happy accident that John-117 saved the human species and it would be a happy accident if a serial killer had offed kid Hitler in his line of work.
So no, I don't think any of the people who created the Spartans were justified. I'm just confused why Halsey is the center of this when it was clear in the Fall of Reach that the Spartans project was headed by more than one person.
It's hard to say "the ends justify the means" when those ends weren't intentional. It was a happy accident that John-117 saved the human species and it would be a happy accident if a serial killer had offed kid Hitler in his line of work.
So no, I don't think any of the people who created the Spartans were justified. I'm just confused why Halsey is the center of this when it was clear in the Fall of Reach that the Spartans project was headed by more than one person.
User 73706
Banned
In the Bungie verse: Yes.
In the 343 verse: No. The SPARTAN program would debatably be superfluous in 343's universe because of the random levels of power creep during peacetime. The UNSC goes from being a war-torn, singular race at the bad end of a galactic conflict to a nearly-or-above Covenant-level hyperpower in just a matter of... what is it, two years?
In the 343 verse: No. The SPARTAN program would debatably be superfluous in 343's universe because of the random levels of power creep during peacetime. The UNSC goes from being a war-torn, singular race at the bad end of a galactic conflict to a nearly-or-above Covenant-level hyperpower in just a matter of... what is it, two years?
One of the best Star Trek short stories that I ever read from the "Strange New Worlds" annual contest was a glimpse into an alternate timeline where Khan wasn't a villain, but the savior of the human race. The Xindi had destroyed humanity, and the remnants happened upon Khan and his superhumans. He single-handedly brought humanity back, went onto Kronos and convinced the Klingons to help, and saved the world. It was like this reality was the reason Khan ever existed.
And then in true God-level hubris of character that he's known for, he decided that saving humanity wasn't enough. He wanted to prevent their downfall in the first place. So he started messing with the timeline, sending a shuttle each time that had the power to undo whatever changes they did. They'd make a change, send the shuttle to see if things were better and if not, set it back, etc., etc. And eventually, they happened upon the Star Trek timeline of a unified humanity exploring the cosmos and the crux of a galactic Federation of Planets. In this reality, the shuttle sent to see how things were, found out the history of how it went with Khan in this timeline. How he was left to die on a planet thrown out of orbit and eventually killed while trying to seek revenge against the man who unknowingly put him in that harm's way. It was terrible to see the man that had single-handedly saved humanity in his timeline declared a criminal worthy of death in this new one that Khan's leadership itself had helped create. But they left it that way, because saving humanity was their goal, even if Khan's legacy was destroyed as a result.
That's Halsey here. In almost any other chain of events, she's a villain. Despised. Worthy of jail or worse. But in this one time, in this one situation, her God-level hubris of using children to make the perfect soldiers saved humanity.
And like Khan, I'd say that she'd be okay with whatever label history sees fit to give her, because she would've given humanity a future and that was more important to her.
Note:
I haven't played Halo 4, yet, so this is looking at it from the perspective of a Halo 1-3+Reach only user.
And then in true God-level hubris of character that he's known for, he decided that saving humanity wasn't enough. He wanted to prevent their downfall in the first place. So he started messing with the timeline, sending a shuttle each time that had the power to undo whatever changes they did. They'd make a change, send the shuttle to see if things were better and if not, set it back, etc., etc. And eventually, they happened upon the Star Trek timeline of a unified humanity exploring the cosmos and the crux of a galactic Federation of Planets. In this reality, the shuttle sent to see how things were, found out the history of how it went with Khan in this timeline. How he was left to die on a planet thrown out of orbit and eventually killed while trying to seek revenge against the man who unknowingly put him in that harm's way. It was terrible to see the man that had single-handedly saved humanity in his timeline declared a criminal worthy of death in this new one that Khan's leadership itself had helped create. But they left it that way, because saving humanity was their goal, even if Khan's legacy was destroyed as a result.
That's Halsey here. In almost any other chain of events, she's a villain. Despised. Worthy of jail or worse. But in this one time, in this one situation, her God-level hubris of using children to make the perfect soldiers saved humanity.
And like Khan, I'd say that she'd be okay with whatever label history sees fit to give her, because she would've given humanity a future and that was more important to her.
Note:
I haven't played Halo 4, yet, so this is looking at it from the perspective of a Halo 1-3+Reach only user.
Maybe I'm not exactly sure really. I mean thier's the S3 program that was Ackerson(?) that is arguably much worse as they were expendable and most of them are dead.
As for the S2's I'd say it was justified to an extent that it was humanities last hope. (wasn't it made to fight insurrectionist's?)
As for the S2's I'd say it was justified to an extent that it was humanities last hope. (wasn't it made to fight insurrectionist's?)
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Trust us.
Not sure where you got that from. They are in no way a hyper-power. They have just built a really big ship. Also it's 4 years, not 2.
That's kind of the point but Parangosky isn't interesting enough a character in her own right to really carry the plot point.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
So why not make her into a legitimate character with some more depth? Look at what they're trying to do with Palmer, and she threw around stupid phrases like "Eggheads!"
ThatChairMan
Member
I'd argue that if the S-IIs were justified, so were the S-IIIs.
pulga
Banned
Nope, there's no way to morally justify kidnapping children, indoctrinating them and pumping them full of steroids whilst making their parents believe they had melted into jelly. Plus, she was making them to fight insurrectionists for fucks sake. Ultimately, yes they did save the world, but only because Earth had the "dumb luck" to be targeted by the Covenant. If the Covenant hadn't showed up, all those broken families would only be so because of a mad woman's desire to quell petty insurrections.
The woman is a mad scientist and should be hung for her crimes.
The woman is a mad scientist and should be hung for her crimes.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Retroactively it turned out well because she somehow granted Master Chief the ability to save and reload any time his fights went bad as well as the power to never be in a battle where his transport was blown up or he faced down more than a platoon level enemy force scattered over a large area, one squad at a time. All the rest of the Spartans that lacked Plot Armor were wiped out by the Covenant, and by all rights MC should have been too. Since it's full of standard action SF movie and videogame tropes the main character can somehow make a huge difference in an interplanetary war fought between tens of billions of people one one side and hundreds of billions / trillions on the other. A war that the Covenant should have been able to win with their eyes closed in about 2 years, given that their ships are individually more powerful, far more numerous and have a strategic advantage caused by being able to fly literally hundreds of times faster than the human ships can through interstellar space. Yet according to lore it dragged on for 30 years.
The Spartan program was dumb, though. This is a civilization capable of building superhuman AI into a chip the size of a micro-SD card, they honestly should have been building huge armies of robots 50x more combat effective than a regular marine. They don't need expensive microfusion reactors, they don't need shields, they just need big guns strapped to a robot body. I guarantee you that a computer can react faster than any human can, even one with enhanced reflexes. You know what would run as fast as a Spartan? The suit of fucking armor by itself, without a human inside. It's already doing all of the work for the Spartan anyway, now you can just strap extra batteries and thicker armor on instead of having a human. Oh, and instead of a stupid human shape, you can make it mostly square to be more efficient. In fact there is no reason for it to look anything like a human, or to even have legs most of the time. You can have some of them with legs in case you need to navigate that kind of terrain, but honestly most of the time it's not necessary.
In fact why am I even calling it an armor suit. It should just be an autonomous 4 wheeler with a fucking autocannon on top. Then you can have a smaller version with a beefy fucking HMG on top instead of an assault rifle that can go inside and ruin covenant infantry. The lore goes on about how damn expensive all of the Spartans, you could get thousands of these vehicles for the price of one spartan. Real wars can't be fought by a tiny number of supersoldiers, it's fictional nonsense. The Spartan program's efficacy is based solely on it being designed to be a 13 year old boy's power fantasy of being a demigod in superarmor.
The Spartan program was dumb, though. This is a civilization capable of building superhuman AI into a chip the size of a micro-SD card, they honestly should have been building huge armies of robots 50x more combat effective than a regular marine. They don't need expensive microfusion reactors, they don't need shields, they just need big guns strapped to a robot body. I guarantee you that a computer can react faster than any human can, even one with enhanced reflexes. You know what would run as fast as a Spartan? The suit of fucking armor by itself, without a human inside. It's already doing all of the work for the Spartan anyway, now you can just strap extra batteries and thicker armor on instead of having a human. Oh, and instead of a stupid human shape, you can make it mostly square to be more efficient. In fact there is no reason for it to look anything like a human, or to even have legs most of the time. You can have some of them with legs in case you need to navigate that kind of terrain, but honestly most of the time it's not necessary.
In fact why am I even calling it an armor suit. It should just be an autonomous 4 wheeler with a fucking autocannon on top. Then you can have a smaller version with a beefy fucking HMG on top instead of an assault rifle that can go inside and ruin covenant infantry. The lore goes on about how damn expensive all of the Spartans, you could get thousands of these vehicles for the price of one spartan. Real wars can't be fought by a tiny number of supersoldiers, it's fictional nonsense. The Spartan program's efficacy is based solely on it being designed to be a 13 year old boy's power fantasy of being a demigod in superarmor.
Zeouterlimits
Member
No. Yes, a serious and deadly rebellion was occurring. People were dying.
But conscripting and brainwashing kids? Of course not. We're not animals. Protecting the weak and being of a higher moral fibre is part of being "the good guys".
The Covenant attacking does not factor into it at all.
Halsey is/was a fan favourite because by being a mother to the Spartans, she's practically a mother figure to the player as well, as well as being Cortana for all intents and purposes.
Being a/the saviour of the human race, and boasting a clever and dry wit [see characters like Moffat's Sherlock] tends to endear one's self as well.
I find her relationship with Keyes one of the more odd things in the franchise as it's hard to imagine her really "switching off" in a lot of what we've seen. She certainly admired and respected him, but the sexy/sultry Halsey we see in Keyes' Gravemind digested memory is kind of incongruous with the Halsey we've normally seen.
I don't necessarily think this is a flaw with her portrayal, we really don't spend "that" much time with young Halsey.
However, I think they've always been cognizant and frank about that by how they've always joked about the UNSC reverting back to using regular projectile weapons closer to our modern day equivalents because "it was more fun".
But conscripting and brainwashing kids? Of course not. We're not animals. Protecting the weak and being of a higher moral fibre is part of being "the good guys".
The Covenant attacking does not factor into it at all.
However 343I have since introduced the Geass mechanic and plotline, so if they want they can give her an out.
Halsey is/was a fan favourite because by being a mother to the Spartans, she's practically a mother figure to the player as well, as well as being Cortana for all intents and purposes.
Being a/the saviour of the human race, and boasting a clever and dry wit [see characters like Moffat's Sherlock] tends to endear one's self as well.
I find her relationship with Keyes one of the more odd things in the franchise as it's hard to imagine her really "switching off" in a lot of what we've seen. She certainly admired and respected him, but the sexy/sultry Halsey we see in Keyes' Gravemind digested memory is kind of incongruous with the Halsey we've normally seen.
I don't necessarily think this is a flaw with her portrayal, we really don't spend "that" much time with young Halsey.
Of course it is, and as you clearly demonstrate, once you start pulling at threads you can easily unravel the whole Halo Universe.
However, I think they've always been cognizant and frank about that by how they've always joked about the UNSC reverting back to using regular projectile weapons closer to our modern day equivalents because "it was more fun".
pulga
Banned
But then you have the robots becoming sentient and buttfucking Earth from the inside out.
Except advanced AIs deteriorate and go fucking insane after a few years. It's probably not a good idea to give them machine guns.
Yeah, they were soldiers.
Lol awesome.
all that shit can be explained with one word
luck
its stated in the books that all other spartans were crazy good at something. one of them was fast the other could snipe like a mofo. all of them except john who had one trait. luck, cortana mentions this several times and if you look back at everything hes done most of it was really just luck
and not everyone of them got wiped out as you said it. pretty sure a handful of them are still alive and even were on the infinity at some point
She DOES know how to pick 'em
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Did they really have to kidnap the kids? I mean, the human population at that point is what, in the tens of billions? They couldn't find any physically/mentally superior kids whose parents would agree to give them up voluntarily?
User 73706
Banned
The difference is that the last time the UNSC threw some cash towards a high-powered experimental ship loaded with tons of prototype weaponry, it crash-landed and got its engines overloaded to make sure Alpha Halo got destroyed.
The Infinty not only survived its first major conflict, but survived and won a recon-gone-assault mission against the most powerful, non-eldritch faction in the 'verse. And on top of that, it was grounded with no visible landing gear on a Forerunner Shield World and still managed to escape.
The fact that it escaped near-completely intact is a testament to just how ridiculous the UNSC's potential is at this point. If they experienced severe financial and militaristic cutbacks because the Infinity didn't make it home, that'd be one thing. Now the UNSC's flagship warship has tenure, all the resources available to keep plowing through whatever Covenant Remnant or Promethean stragglers show up, or god knows what else the UNSC / ONI wants to do.
Additionally, keep in mind the last time a fleet, not a ship, of any kind attempted to screw with a Shield World (in this case Onyx), a large majority of the entire fleet got annihilated. The Infinity succeeded solo.
Why ask when you can take and get away with it?
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
They don't have to be advanced. We can build robots right now that are almost as good as what you would need. It doesn't need to be even close to Cortana's level, for example, to be able to detect enemy soldiers, then perform basic calculations to aim and fire the gun. They can be partially controlled by soldiers at a distance, or they can be fully automated. Since we don't have to worry about civilian casualties, the task is much easier than a robot would have in real life where it has to differentiate between combatants and non-combatants. It just needs IFF to figure out where the friendly robots are.
I mentioned their level of AI tech merely because it highlights how stupid it all is. It's like going back to read an Asimov novel where there are robots with "positronic brains" to achieve human-level intelligence, but then people use slide rules for astrogation and just eyeball it half the time. The disconnect between the level of technological accomplishment and the implications of what they could achieve with it, or even with a fraction of it.
As a side note, "AI rampancy" is one of the dumbest fictional concepts they thought up from a pure science perspective.
User 73706
Banned
It's mostly just lore baggage that came over from Marathon.
It's a universe with space faring humans who have 1970s level weapons. Gotta suspend some disbelief.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
That's not fair. In several ways, the 1970's Earth military forces were in fact quite superior to the UNSC.
AdmiralSnackbar
Member
The spartan program wasn't entirely about building super soldiers though. In the Reach data logs they explain that there's an AI illuminati that is trying to guide humanity to a singularity like the forerunner achieved. Master chief with all his cyborg enhancements and AI partner mimics the forrunners and is supposed to represent the next leap in evolution.
But it was also allot about building super soldiers just in case we meet aliens
Excuse me madam, would you mind if you gave us your children so that we can do medical experiments on them that will kill the majority of them while they are experiencing intense and torturous pain, and if they somehow survive, it's not guaranteed they wouldn't suffer other problems. After that, they'll likely train for the rest of their lives and be sent on suicide missions they won't likely survive.
Face it, no parent would willingly give up their kid for this. Remember, no one really knew about this secret Spartan program. It's not like it was just some regular military enlistment. They needed to get children who were genetically perfect, who could be trained. And so they kidnapped them, and created clones which would become sick and eventually die so parents would forget about them.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Yes, she most certainly was. Humanity would've been obliterated without the Spartans. Sure, the Spartan program was originally created to deal with Human insurrectionists, and not the Covenant threat, but considering how things ended up turning out, humanity should consider itself fortunate that Halsey did what she did. Yes, there are some serious moral implications regarding the actions taken during the Spartan program, but she wasn't exactly alone in all of that. She played a tremendous role in giving humanity a fighting chance, and that's something she shouldn't be crucified for. It's easy for some to get on their high horse and judge her, but she's not remotely close to being the monster she's portrayed as.
VisceralBowl
Member
Oh and you forgot the part where they offer the clone that will gradually "fall apart" over the next few years.
The Faceless Master
Member
i always thought "the end justifies the means" covered the end you planned to justify with the means you took, not some out of left field random ass lucky fucking ending that was completely unplanned for with your means.
of course Halsey wasn't justified. the people who authorized the project were just as guilty.
of course Halsey wasn't justified. the people who authorized the project were just as guilty.
Probably not at the rate and numbers the Spartan-II meatgrinder required.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Liquidsnake
Banned
When faced with extinction, there could be no sacrifice too big.
There are those of us that thought this day would never come what are they to say now?
Ahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaa MMMMMWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
There are those of us that thought this day would never come what are they to say now?
Ahhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaa MMMMMWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Man, I miss that shit.
Fixed. Normally I would have let it slide but that line was too good to be quoted wrong.