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Was Dr. Halsey justified, ultimately, in creating the Spartan-II program in Halo?
- Thread starter T'Zariah
- Start date
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Didn't the Spartan II program only have something like 150 initial test subjects?
Even if only 0.001% of people agreed to give their kid up to the program, out of a population of 40 billion humans, that's still 40,000 candidates.
How many of those were qualified subjects though?
SicSemperTyrannis
Member
These were actions of a war criminal that had unquestioned freedom from ONI at the time to do whatever she wanted. ONI wanted the rebels dealt with and she offered a solution. The fact that humanity was saved by them in end matters little, those ungrateful colonists should have been glad to be giving sustenance to the inner colonies with little or no reward.
Honestly though, from the sounds of it, the out colonists had rough going when they were in the inner colonies. Why shouldn't they be glad to be free and have work during a time that our species was expanding further into the stars? People should have been thinking about the greater good instead of only caring about their own interests. Maybe if they didn't leave themselves with no choice but to go to the outer colonies thing could have been different.
Ultimately they brought it on themselves. ONI, and to put a face to the project: Halsey tried to replace the children. She did know that flash clones would die horrible deaths, but she also didn't want the parents to suffer wondering where their stolen children had gone. These youth were chosen because of unique DNA characteristics and inherent physical and mental abilities to become Spartans. If there were only 150 chosen (with it reduced to 75 due to finacial constraints) with limitations such a DNA/physical/mental profile then imagine what that number would have been if they asked politely...single digits if they were lucky.
No matter the cost, humanity should be saved. Sometimes I wish someone would realize that about our current path and where humanity is heading now. If you've seen the film Idiocracy you have seen into this planets future and it is fear inducing.
don't make me buy an xbox one you bastard
The Spartans were originally created to fight humans, and there was some espionage involved in The Fall of Reach. Robots stick out a lot more than humans, I guess. Human ingenuity is also sort of a key thing, isn't it? A robot that detects Covenant, swivels, and shoots at them is one thing, but a thinking, creative individual is a lot more effective against an opponent that is vastly more advanced and numerous than you. Almost all of the success that the Spartans achieved came from their ability to outwit their enemy - they were resourceful and masterful tacticians, which at the end of the day was a lot more powerful than a suit of armor and super strength.
I suppose you could make the argument for the robots to be controlled directly by humans, sort of like how drones are now, but the Spartans were deployed across all sectors of the galaxy light-years apart, usually in incredible hostile and dangerous territory. I don't know how wifi and latency works in space, but, you know, you probably don't want that.
On top of all that, it's worth considering how vitriolically people in the Halo universe responded to Halsey's creation of the Spartans after the Covenant war. If they can't handle cyborg children, I can't imagine that anyone would be cool with an army of robots. If anything, it would only have instigated even more rebellion, which of course was the very thing the UNSC was desperately struggling to combat. And now? Prometheans, yo. No one is going to be down with creating a robot army after that shit.
Anyway, I'm not trying to argue that there isn't a lot of dumb nonsense in Halo. There is. There's a lot. I just don't consider the Spartans to be the dumbest, or even really that dumb. There's way dumber shit in way better sci-fi than Halo, let the Spartans be the least of your concerns.
The UNSC was having a rather difficult time in dealing with the insurrectionist on the outer colonies, thus the main reason in green lighting the spartan-II program.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Sounds like realistic military shooter not sci-fi, I'd recommend COD for you
Reading all that you should make a Honest Trailer version of Halo. Seriously if you applied this logic to any book, game or movie you'd far more often than not be damning the protagonists, antagonists and suspension of disbelief etc. Killjoy (meant in a light hearted way).Maybe it's because I didn't become really familiar with Halo until like 2010, but when I first read up on the first game's story, I just assumed the UNSC government was some kind of totalitarian government that didn't give a fuck, so I was shocked when they actually arrested Halsey for the SPARTAN-II program.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
This thread isn't about those other things though.
As far as espionage is concerned, I'm not sure that a 7 foot cyborg superman is really the best for subtle infiltration and espionage either. Spartan mental prowess and tactical thinking does not require other modifications or putting them in combat. In fact, I would argue that putting super-generals on the front line as infantry is a bad move when they could just be commanding troops. The mental enhancements were one small component of the program.
Of course I would argue that a superhuman AI is better than a human at everything anyway, so they're the ones that should be calling the shots tactically and strategically, but I'm sure that if asked the writers will come up with some nonsense about the human spirit and creativity that has no real basis in science.
StUnNeR H2K
Member
What would have happened had she not followed through with the program? No John would mean the events of Halo would be very different. Though the games don't recognize the other Spartan-II's John isn't the only Spartan-II that had big impacts in the war.
Would love to see the other Spartan-II's make an appearance with John. Maybe an official reunion between him and other surviving Spartan-II's. I've always been interested in seeing Fred-104 in a game.
Would love to see the other Spartan-II's make an appearance with John. Maybe an official reunion between him and other surviving Spartan-II's. I've always been interested in seeing Fred-104 in a game.
But is humanity worth saving?
This thread isn't about whether or not the Spartan program is dumb either.
ONI and the UNSC wanted really smart and really powerful individuals to combat Insurrectionists. Super generals and sheer firepower weren't cutting it, so they made cyborgs. Make of that what you will. The ones that weren't physically capable of shooting dudes actually did become super-generals and commanders you're talking about.
They are. http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Assembly_(group)
It's a really half-baked concept that hasn't been explored or even explained at all outside of the Reach terminals, so weigh that however much you like.
From a "pure science perspective" everything about strong AI is dumb. It's like nitpicking over how magic missile works. Might as well suspend disbelief and go 'sure, strong AI goes crazy. why not?'
Prinz Eugn
Member
Well if it's supposed to be the perspective of just some characters that Halsey is a bad, bad lady and should be punished as a war criminal, you guys sure did a terrible job making that apparent. The 343i canon has been pretty unambigiously anti-Halsey so far from a fan perspective regardless of what you guys intended. The ending of Spartan Ops doesn't even try to give any indication that her "revenge!!!!" line wasn't sincere, so we're left to assume that she is and will from now on be working against the protagonists (SIVs, Lasky, et al) later.
Without the Spartans holding off the Covenant long enough to capture Engineers and then Onyx/Requiem itself, this doesn't happen. We assume Jackals have the remaining Covenant capital ships after the war and they aren't sharing. That makes the Infinity the biggest stick in the universe.
Without the use of Requiem's Engineers humanity would NOT have an advantage.
not to mention being Reclaimers and all.....
This is a cool idea. I'd really love a team-based Halo game. A little like Reach, but with actual squad mechanics. If a character dies in one mission, they're out for the rest of the game.
Playing as an ODST again could be amazing.
They are also the cream of the crop of the human race. Most likely they would have done something great.
Atraveller
Banned
Yes, and the research of Spartan II paved the way for Spartan III and IV, and they helped immensely.
Metalingus5150
Member
Yes. The end result saved the human race form extinction.
ProfessorMoran
Member
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Really? IMO it's clear as day that Halsey has time and time again had to deal with issues at hand and present a certain perception while progressing towards her "real goals". She's just using her arm weakness as a deceptive revenge strength while she's Jul's captive and he has the other half of the Janus key.
When the moment comes she'll enable the recapture of that half of key and move back to Spartan protection or UNSC present climate or escape solo.
Maybe I'm too pro-Halsey?
Sounds like a fun game to play.
That would be cool.
Of course your character would have to survive, but it would be cool to be in a group with fire emblem -esque permadeth, and it effects the rest of them. And then you could go to differen't places and do different missions and would could talk to people in different ways with dialog...
Someone Make Halo Effect :Awakening the walking Dead right now.
God, I'd love that. One woman would be great at crawling through small spaces. If she's killed, certain areas must be played through differently. Maybe one guy is a great mechanic, and as long as he's alive the player-controlled ODST can hijack Covenant vehicles.
DragonSworne
Banned
No, she was not justified.
Spartan II program was a solution to the problem and threat, but not the only solution.
Humanity would have another solution, that is what makes us human.
Spartan II program was a solution to the problem and threat, but not the only solution.
Humanity would have another solution, that is what makes us human.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I would say that as far as Spartans being unnecessary because a million Cortanas could be made and put into millions of sensibly designed combat robots... the last I read of the lore, AIs like Cortana are not mass produced in the Halo universe. They're still rare and have limitations, such as having to be created from components of an individual human mind. Also expensive and with limited lifespans for all their cost.
There would also be the ethical issue of rubber stamping millions of AIs destined only for combat to be used as cannon fodder. In order to get the benefits of something at least as smart as a human being, it will have to be sentient. Then you get into the Cylon problem: let's build a slave race of intelligent machines, use them to do our bloody dirty work and treat them like shit. What could possibly go wrong?
There would also be the ethical issue of rubber stamping millions of AIs destined only for combat to be used as cannon fodder. In order to get the benefits of something at least as smart as a human being, it will have to be sentient. Then you get into the Cylon problem: let's build a slave race of intelligent machines, use them to do our bloody dirty work and treat them like shit. What could possibly go wrong?
TacticalFox88
Banned
And that would also make us dead.
I was thinking spartan program, since they reinstated and all. Plus you get the cool armor, but cool ideas yeah,
Karak
Member
Love these kinds of threads and for some reason I have felt they have been lacking lately.
A good simple question with so many unique answers.
Mine is along the same as others though. When she started? No. But it turned out to be a military boon. Somewhat like many nations decisions in our own past.
A good simple question with so many unique answers.
Mine is along the same as others though. When she started? No. But it turned out to be a military boon. Somewhat like many nations decisions in our own past.
Prinz Eugn
Member
Watch the scene, it's not clear at all. We can infer that she's manipulating Jul somehow, but there's no reason given to think the revenge thing isn't sincere and isn't one of her "real goals". She's into self-preservation and the UNSC is officially trying to kill her, so going back to them makes no sense, but working against them does. Since the UNSC and even ONI forces are set up as the protagonists (esp. Osman & crew) in the Traviss books and Halo 4/Spartan Ops, that sure makes it look like she's set up to be the bad guy.
She was justified. It is a very sad story, the kidnapped children were cloned and those clones were sent back to the parents, who had to take care of a child in a vegetative state. Most of the children also died during the surgical and augmentation procedures, when they were around 10-13? They also underwent brutal training that would cripple gown men.
I think other than the fact that she basically saved the universe in creating the Spartans (and the Master Chief), she also cared for them like children. She didn't think of them as tools of war, she regretted every dead/MIA spartan and she committed crimes to try and save them. Sad, but necessary were her actions. I still haven't read the books that explain why she appears in Halo 4, I think I read the first 5.
Ghosts of Onyx is legitimately one of the best books I have ever read. Wow. Making a game based on that book could be a game of the generation candidate. Amazing.
I think other than the fact that she basically saved the universe in creating the Spartans (and the Master Chief), she also cared for them like children. She didn't think of them as tools of war, she regretted every dead/MIA spartan and she committed crimes to try and save them. Sad, but necessary were her actions. I still haven't read the books that explain why she appears in Halo 4, I think I read the first 5.
Ghosts of Onyx is legitimately one of the best books I have ever read. Wow. Making a game based on that book could be a game of the generation candidate. Amazing.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Omg the emoshuns.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
I would disagree, she created the Spartans/AIs plus more and in the final Spartan Ops scenes she even trusted Thorne with her half of the Janus Key. She knows ONI has been gunning for her and would easily assess the shots on her as that. Of course they want an ambiguous cliff-hanger with the revenge line.
The revenge is a means to an end, that was clear as day. She'll avoid/battle ONI, semi-trust UNSC and 100% trust/guide her SIIs with some SIIIs now it seems. Halsey and these relationships have been well established for years and years. We're just seeing some interesting cross factions, dramatics and interplay now.
I'd still say she was later vindicated in her creation of the SIIs and her position and actions throughout her presence in the lore has remained unchanged even given her revenge line/scenario.
Caayn
Member
To everyone saying that they should just have used volunteers for the SII program. That wouldn't have worked. For a few obvious reasons.
1. No one is going to give away their child for that.
2. The number of people who met the requirements of the SII program were far and few between. Even with a population of tens of billions Halsey had trouble to find candidates for a second of wave of the SII program.
3. Secrecy, ONI killed their own employees who refused to work on the SII program to maintain secrecy.
It's crazy that the people behind the SIII program, which was much less humane knowing the reason why the SIIIs were created, don't get any flack. While Halsey gets the entire shit collection of ONI and the UNSC.
1. No one is going to give away their child for that.
2. The number of people who met the requirements of the SII program were far and few between. Even with a population of tens of billions Halsey had trouble to find candidates for a second of wave of the SII program.
3. Secrecy, ONI killed their own employees who refused to work on the SII program to maintain secrecy.
It's crazy that the people behind the SIII program, which was much less humane knowing the reason why the SIIIs were created, don't get any flack. While Halsey gets the entire shit collection of ONI and the UNSC.
The alternative would've been the extinction of the human race. There simply are no alternatives. Sure the Spartans weren't created with fighting the covenant in mind. But they've shown that we wouldn't have survived without them.
Definitely.
Even if the original purpose was to make super soldiers to fight off the Insurrectionists (rebelling humans), the Spartans ended up serving a greater purpose once the Covenant hit.
I think the question of whether or not the Spartan-II program would be worth it or not would be a lot more interesting had the Covenant not entered the picture at all. Or if they decided to start up the program once the Covenant had already hit or well into the war.
Right or wrong, good or bad, Halsey really can't do wrong by me (not yet, anyways). She's easily the most interesting characters in the entire franchise.
Even if the original purpose was to make super soldiers to fight off the Insurrectionists (rebelling humans), the Spartans ended up serving a greater purpose once the Covenant hit.
I think the question of whether or not the Spartan-II program would be worth it or not would be a lot more interesting had the Covenant not entered the picture at all. Or if they decided to start up the program once the Covenant had already hit or well into the war.
Right or wrong, good or bad, Halsey really can't do wrong by me (not yet, anyways). She's easily the most interesting characters in the entire franchise.
And if not, at least we would have been dead.
I wonder how much of the Iron Lady was injected into Halsey by the author. A tough female in a vital role who is willing to sacrifice her personal identity for the greater good of what "must be done", etc, etc. Even if it makes her look bad in the eyes of history, it was still done for the good of the empire, and trying to force the reader to "reconcile" all of that. I think it's lame too.
Breakfast at Noon
Member
the original motive was wrong but in the end it was worth it.
but the end does not justify the begining.
but the end does not justify the begining.
Twin Tails
Member
How does that still justify ONI backstabbing the Elites? Now of course no one expected them to sing kumbaya, but considering the Arbiter contributed just as much, if not more so from a certain POV, as the Chief did in saving humanity, it seems kind of really shitty.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
The Arbiter saved humanity IMO. MC was just fixated on his love for Cortana, but had Arbiter not convinced the Elites to switch sides, humanity would've been doomed.
I agree in general, but I think "prevented the extinction of the human race" is among the exceptions I'd allow. What really damns Halsey is that wasn't her original objective. Her atrocities were mostly in place before the Covenant showed up. Her legacy was (at least partly) saved by the war.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Halsey's contribution to the preservation of humanity goes beyond her initial creation of the Spartan 2 program. Even with it not being her initial objective, her actions once the Covenant entered the picture were also of immense value to humanity. Mjolnir, for example, really blossomed and came into its own as a valuable weapon against the Covenant, even incorporating Covenant shield technology that I believe was acquired during a Spartan mission in space where they encountered some jackals. Then there was the innovation of the suit being able to house an AI at Cortana's level, which could also be used to increase the abilities of the Spartan. She also played a crucial role in the discovery of the coordinates for the first Halo modern humanity encountered. She did some questionable things, no doubt, and they had their consequences, but she has displayed herself to be a far better person compared to how she's being portrayed. For example, if Halsey were the person that people wanted to believe she was, she would've instantly threw Sgt. Johnson under the bus by providing ONI with her entire report about how Johnson was attacked by the flood, but somehow still managed to avoid being infected. If Halsey was a monster, she would've allowed ONI to chop up and dissect Johnson until they found out everything there was to know about what exactly made him undesirable as a host for flood infection. Halsey helped humanity create weapons in the Spartans that were initially meant to be used against humanity, but I imagine quite a bit of the arsenal at humanity's disposal was created with the explicit purpose of being used against other humans. People were then trained to use those weapons of destruction for the purpose of killing other members of the human race. So, as far as I see it, the biggest issues with Halsey's actions were the act of kidnapping kids from their families and then performing experiments on them, some of which led to those same kids being horribly disfigured or even ending up dead as a result of the augmentation process. Nothing pretty about that, but regardless of her initial reasons, I think the heart of the individual matters, as well as the actions that follow. Halsey has never struck me as a particularly heartless or cruel individual, not even close actually. There's a reason that so many of the Spartan IIs worship the very ground she walks on. It wasn't fear of the woman or harsh treatment that forced them to think that, either.
Sure, you have your bitter Spartan drop outs such as Osman, but, hey, everybody can't be perfect. Shit, that reminds me, I need to complete Thursday War.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Yup. If Halo 5 has us working alongside Elites, in-game, vs Jul'Mdama's forces, I'll be there day goddamn zero.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
If Master Chief didn't do the things that he did, effectively fighting off Covenant actions wherever and whenever he could, the Arbiter and the rest of the Elites would have destroyed not only humanity, but themselves along with the rest of sentient life in the galaxy.
Master Chief's actions kept the elites alive long enough to actually have a choice on which path they would take. Prior to the Master Chief, they were all too happy to go on their "great journey."