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"Why Are You So Angry?: A 6-Part Series On Angry Gamers"

Ty4on

Member
We apparently need a new law, like Godwin's or Lewis', something along the lines of "Any conversation on the internet at least tangentially related to Anita Sarkeesian will eventually result in someone posting unlabelled Thunderf00t videos in place of an actual argument."

Seriously, if you have a point, try making it without linking to some shitweasel's unhinged rants and polluting my history and recommendations with that crap without any kind of warning.
Without clicking any of those I know a certain Hitman video is probably one of them. It does make spotting them easier. The concern trolling breaks apart with a TF thumbnail.

I need to memorize the URL of that video though :p
WuR SaLZid (in) WN
Shouldn't be impossible. Wur just sounds strange and salzid is kinda like salsa. WN is the state
 

Veelk

Banned
There's a facet I've noticed of the angry jack that wasn't explored, and it's the idea of how it's more visible than ever than other people than straight white cis men are part of gaming culture, and how if the reasonable request that these others are given representation in video games, Jack fears that this means a loss of identity. Not just a question of "What if I'm wrong?" but also a more paranoid "What if I don't matter?"

Certainly not exclusive to game culture, I mean just look at what happened when people wanted a black spider-man and when Johnny Storm is now played by Michael B. Jordan

This is a good point. I don't think the two questions are necessarily separate, but it is linked to a power dynamic. Evidence of this is, if nothing else, the claims to powerlessness that a lot of arguments for prejudiced structures exist. The MRA is an movement that specifically motions to compensate for a 'lack' of support for men from feminism. People feel threatened, even though in reality, it's not a zero sum game. More presentation for women and other minorities will not equal less representation for men.
 

Harmen

Member
It is hilarious to see a shitloat of yt-commentators confirming some aspects of his videos, with them (probably) failing to realize that themselves. The people described in these video's are basically adding evidence to back the guy's notions.

About the vids, I thought they were well done. He raises some good points. I am not sure to what extent his notions apply (because, like posters here said before, people and cultures are varied), but I am convinced a significant portion of that gg stuff can be traced to some of this behaviour.
 
There's a facet I've noticed of the angry jack that wasn't explored, and it's the idea of how it's more visible than ever than other people than straight white cis men are part of gaming culture, and how if the reasonable request that these others are given representation in video games, Jack fears that this means a loss of identity. Not just a question of "What if I'm wrong?" but also a more paranoid "What if I don't matter?"

Certainly not exclusive to game culture, I mean just look at what happened when people wanted a black spider-man and when Johnny Storm is now played by Michael B. Jordan

This is a good point. I don't think the two questions are necessarily separate, but it is linked to a power dynamic. Evidence of this is, if nothing else, the claims to powerlessness that a lot of arguments for prejudiced structures exist. The MRA is an movement that specifically motions to compensate for a 'lack' of support for men from feminism. People feel threatened, even though in reality, it's not a zero sum game. More presentation for women and other minorities will not equal less representation for men.

That delusion is what fuels the persecution complex. Maybe the MRA movement making it out that men have it generally worse when it's not the case is a way of giving themselves the underdog status, which everyone roots for. When you're a victim, people give you pity and attention so they want in on that benefit that they've never received before.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
This is a good point. I don't think the two questions are necessarily separate, but it is linked to a power dynamic. Evidence of this is, if nothing else, the claims to powerlessness that a lot of arguments for prejudiced structures exist. The MRA is an movement that specifically motions to compensate for a 'lack' of support for men from feminism. People feel threatened, even though in reality, it's not a zero sum game. More presentation for women and other minorities will not equal less representation for men.

Is that really true, though? If you have more video games with female protagonists in most cases that essentially means fewer with male protagonists unless you have a constantly expanding market. That's not to excuse the lack of perspective complaining about 1 or 2 out of 10 titles catering to someone else betrays.

There's also the issue of actual numbers don't matter as much as perception, and what you're used to. On the positive side that means that for people who feel dejected by their lack of representation, even a single game or book or movie can have an outsize impact.
 

Terrell

Member
There's a facet I've noticed of the angry jack that wasn't explored, and it's the idea of how it's more visible than ever than other people than straight white cis men are part of gaming culture, and how if the reasonable request that these others are given representation in video games, Jack fears that this means a loss of identity. Not just a question of "What if I'm wrong?" but also a more paranoid "What if I don't matter?"

Certainly not exclusive to game culture, I mean just look at what happened when people wanted a black spider-man and when Johnny Storm is now played by Michael B. Jordan

Yeah, this is the important distinction, because some of these problems cause doubt on 2 different fronts, which only makes the reaction worse. And for "what if I don't matter?", the response internally typically amounts to "well, maybe I'm just not vocalizing how I matter as much as I should", which leads to the need to chime in, even when there's nothing gained from doing so. When combined with the reaction to "what if I'm wrong?", it becomes a deadly combination.

The problem is that they're asking this question from a very selfish place.

I think part of the reason that I'm an open-minded person is that, when confronted with "what if I'm wrong", I also ask "well, why can't they be right? Does what I think automatically invalidate them?" And, especially on the topic of diverse and less stereotypical representation, when confronted with "what if I don't matter?", I also think "well, why haven't THEY mattered? If they did, this wouldn't still be a talking point, right?"

Once you take your own personal selfishness out of the discussion, it becomes a way to reason out both parts to see where they match and where they don't.... y'know, forming a personalized opinion on the matter that can be debated upon into refinement through further open-mindedness.

Is that really true, though? If you have more video games with female protagonists in most cases that essentially means fewer with male protagonists unless you have a constantly expanding market. That's not to excuse the lack of perspective complaining about 1 or 2 out of 10 titles catering to someone else betrays.

There's also the issue of actual numbers don't matter as much as perception, and what you're used to. On the positive side that means that for people who feel dejected by their lack of representation, even a single game or book or movie can have an outsize impact.

The games market continues to expand at a rapid rate, so no, we haven't reached "peak game" yet in terms of a reduction happening through diversity. And when you add that many games have multiple playable characters, that further dilutes this "issue" into nothing.
 

Veelk

Banned
Is that really true, though? If you have more video games with female protagonists in most cases that essentially means fewer with male protagonists unless you have a constantly expanding market. That's not to excuse the lack of perspective complaining about 1 or 2 out of 10 titles catering to someone else betrays.

There's also the issue of actual numbers don't matter as much as perception, and what you're used to. On the positive side that means that for people who feel dejected by their lack of representation, even a single game or book or movie can have an outsize impact.

Hm...You can consider this from two perspectives.

From a consumerist, gamer perspective, yes, it really is true, because games are indeed an expanding market. Games don't stop existing except in special occasions, especially with digital distribution. If all developers made nothing female represented games for the next 10 years, female representation would still be considered extremely small collectively viewed. Viewed collectively, the representation for women and minorities is essentailly nonexistant in relation to the representaiton of white, straight cis males.

From a cultural perspective, where we'd be only considering our current zeitgiest, it's a little more complicated. Time and money and ability all limit the number of games developers can make at a given time. Culturally, only so many games can come out. But once representation reaches a certain point, it becomes redundant. If we're just considering being represented between men and women, then being 90% represented is not that much different than being 50%. Atfter a certain point, it becomes a matter of diminishing returns. The entire point of representation is that we can demonstrate "Hey, we are not all the same stereotype!" Lets say we get 100 games representing men. We depict a sufficient number of diverse men way before we ever hit game 100. If we got 50 games representing us instead, we'd still have sufficient number of representation. 40 is would still be good. 30 would be pushing it. If we only have 20 representing us, then at that point I'd argue we need more diversity in men.

So, for me atleast, yes, it'd be technically 'less' representation, but it wouldn't create actual effect of being less represented unless those numbers dropped way, WAY down.

Edit: Also keep in mind that it isn't a strict numbers game. Quality matters as much as quantity here. If we got 20 games where 17 of them are about a grizzled, hardcore, badass, emotionless marine shooting shit up, and then we got 10 games where each game has a different type of female character from one another, I'd say women are getting more representation than men in that case, or atlesat more types of representation.
 

Brohan

Member
Those video's were a great watch, i like that it really tries to explain every part of the behavior we have seen in Gamergate.
 

Veelk

Banned
Actually, that last edit I put in gave me another line of thought to regarding representation.

Representation of is different from representation for.

As a quick and dirty example, take Dead or Alive, or Lollipop Chainsaw and the like. They have (a) female character(s) front and center. However, they're aren't representations for female gamers really. They're specifically designed as representations for men, even though they're female. And I don't want to say it's solely because of the fanservice, because I feel you can make a fanservicey game that isn't sexist, but...you know. But the point is, if we had a bunch more games like DOA, even though we'd have much in the way of female representation, it wouldn't much in the way of representation for females

It's kind of crazy how complicated representation can get when you actually examine how it functions. The only real easy answer is that there needs to be more of it for minorities, but done in what way is a bag of cats to try and puzzle out.
 

Teuoxton

Member
Should representation be based on percentages of population at all? Sure we would like to see more honest female representation in games, but such an authoritarian approach has resulted in backlash (logical or not). Just buy more games with a balanced representation of minorities than the typical dudebro fare and let the gentle hand of supply and demand change the landscape of development.
 
Should representation be based on percentages of population at all? Sure we would like to see more honest female representation in games, but such an authoritarian approach has resulted in backlash (logical or not).

I don't get it. What's so authoritarian about including more gender and ethnic diversity in pivotal characterizations across video games?

And blind faith in 'the market will decide' ignores the unfortunate lack of representation amongst the very people who make the top-selling games every year. The market has already decided to chase women and minorities out of production jobs, what gives you faith that the same forces will fix the representation issue?
 

Opto

Banned
Straight white cis men are currently OVER represented. So if we reduced the number of those kinds characters they technically wouldn't be represented as much but would be more reflective of the audience of gaming.

Game representation isn't quite a zero sum game, but like Veelk said, there's limits of various factors. What we're fortunately seeing is that at least when it comes to gender, games are turning around. Even in COD we can now play as a female soldier, something that makes me much more interested in the game, same with this year's FIFA. E3 showed a lot of female characters. So people's voices seem to be getting noticed. I just hope this progression continues for all underrepresented demographics
 

Teuoxton

Member
I don't get it. What's so authoritarian about including more gender and ethnic diversity in pivotal characterizations across video games?

And blind faith in 'the market will decide' ignores the unfortunate lack of representation amongst the very people who make the top-selling games every year. The market has already decided to chase women and minorities out of production jobs, what gives you faith that the same forces will fix the representation issue?
Any effort to force an industry change by a group is authoritarian, even if it would be for the greater good (like getting a law passed). It may be effective but does not solve the underlying societal problem. It is not blind faith, but how modern economics work: when the consumer changes their tastes the market will be forced to meet the change.

Basically we have the power to solve the problem organically. Market forces are fluid and powerful (they got us in this situation yes) but that same power is enough to reverse the change too. Companies usually don't choose to promote an ideology, but support one that allows for profit. If we consumers refuse to buy a white male centric game the revenue loss will force the company to release a game that caters to the new demographic.

We must change ourselves before we change the world and we have the power to do both.
 
Should representation be based on percentages of population at all? Sure we would like to see more honest female representation in games, but such an authoritarian approach has resulted in backlash (logical or not). Just buy more games with a balanced representation of minorities than the typical dudebro fare and let the gentle hand of supply and demand change the landscape of development.

I mean that's nice in theory but when companies just straight up refuse to have female protagonists for fear that the game will sell poorly, it's pretty hard for my money to talk. We can't buy games if they aren't being released. Plus, as a consumer it's impossible to tell what aspects of the game I like based on the money I spent on it alone. A lot of the time it's great to have a female protagonist, but it's not great that all the angles are pervy and there is clearly a male gaze thing happening instead of 'playing as the woman'. If we sit back and do nothing then nothing will change - the current model seems to be working fine for the audience most game companies are targeting (young men).
 
Straight white cis men are currently OVER represented. So if we reduced the number of those kinds characters they technically wouldn't be represented as much but would be more reflective of the audience of gaming.

Are they though? not relative to the general population, but relative to the population that actually buy and plays "those" games?
 

Veelk

Banned
The whole market forces thing is a nice theory, but there is solid evidence of female fandom in many things that the company still refused to pay heed to. Despite ample evidence of a massive female fan base in Young Justice, they let YJ die instead of adapting.

The dollar vote can only indicate what if it wants what is on sale. It can't say that it wants what it isn't. And business are not hyper rational machines. They are run by people and subject to as much bias and stupidity as anyone.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
I mean that's nice in theory but when companies just straight up refuse to have female protagonists for fear that the game will sell poorly, it's pretty hard for my money to talk. We can't buy games if they aren't being released. Plus, as a consumer it's impossible to tell what aspects of the game I like based on the money I spent on it alone. A lot of the time it's great to have a female protagonist, but it's not great that all the angles are pervy and there is clearly a male gaze thing happening instead of 'playing as the woman'. If we sit back and do nothing then nothing will change - the current model seems to be working fine for the audience most game companies are targeting (young men).

I don't really see anything changing unless there's an economic impetus too, though. You're right that it's hard to really say "I bought this because it had a good female character I enjoyed" (and at least to me it seems like a really bad idea to prioritize gender or race of characters as the top reason to buy a game) but that's the way things get done. I think change is more likely to come from up-and-coming devs who make games that feature the discussed attributes and get plaudits and sales for that, which in turn forces the bigger and slower-moving gears in the industry to reconsider. To a degree, you're already seeing that, and it's one of the ways the indie scene has been productive. It's an area I think that games are improving and will improve much faster than film.

It's also one of the things that really saddens me about the whole GamerGate backlash. I don't agree with a lot of Sarkeesian's points, but I think that people can vote for what they want in their entertainment; if you don't like what you see, you have the choice to make it yourself and see if people bite. But people are making the games they want to see, and they're attacked and harassed for it.
 

Ty4on

Member
Are they though? not relative to the general population, but relative to the population that actually buy and plays "those" games?
Games aren't about the life of gamers so I don't quite get it. That is if the numbers matched which I find hard to believe when a CoD producer in an interview said a quarter of the player base was female and regarding queer people it's probably quite close to the population statistics.
We must change ourselves before we change the world and we have the power to do both.
We includes them. A lot of developers have said Anita's work had an effect on them and part of her argument is that the perpetual input of male=default (among others) makes us (both devs and consumers) make unconscious decisions.
 

Teuoxton

Member
I mean that's nice in theory but when companies just straight up refuse to have female protagonists for fear that the game will sell poorly, it's pretty hard for my money to talk. We can't buy games if they aren't being released. Plus, as a consumer it's impossible to tell what aspects of the game I like based on the money I spent on it alone. A lot of the time it's great to have a female protagonist, but it's not great that all the angles are pervy and there is clearly a male gaze thing happening instead of 'playing as the woman'. If we sit back and do nothing then nothing will change - the current model seems to be working fine for the audience most game companies are targeting (young men).
Biding our time and spending wisely are actions we may take, along with spreading the word. If there are not many games with a good representation to buy then do not buy any. You do not have to give any money at all to any games company unless you want to. It may be better to wait for a while to see criticism of a game before buying, maybe even months, because it is impossible to tell the content as you said. We might not keep up with the Joneses but we will save money too.

Speaking out is a useful tool and it is good to do so as long as we do not polarize our intended audience. The combination of all strategies is more potent than any one alone so I encourage everyone to try them.
 
Any effort to force an industry change by a group is authoritarian, even if it would be for the greater good (like getting a law passed)

Who on earth is suggesting laws be passed that force quotas on the game industry? To whom are you ascribing such an absurd position?
 

Teuoxton

Member
We includes them. A lot of developers have said Anita's work had an effect on them and part of her argument is that the perpetual input of male=default (among others) makes us (both devs and consumers) make unconscious decisions.
Yes you are correct.
 

Veelk

Banned
Seriously, the only people bringing up any kind of the authoritarian measures are the people making arguments against authoritarianism.
 
Great video series! I actually supported Gamergate for a time, partly because I agreed with the underlying idea, but also because I didn't honestly believe that GGers were being this awful (yes, not every single person. Blah blah. The movement was toxic, no question about it).

It brings up a good point that civilized people should have all learned a long time ago: don't be an angry asshole if you can help it. No good comes out of it. Even in this thread there are posters saying "what? You aren't as outraged as me about GGers? Well, you must not care that people got DOXXED!! CHECKMATE! BET YOU FEEL BAD NOW HUH?"

It's really sad, and it leads to incredibly one-sided discussion when one side is allowed to categorically dismiss the other, but the other side is ostracized for doing that. Of course, the excuse is "but they're just wrong".
 
Is that really true, though? If you have more video games with female protagonists in most cases that essentially means fewer with male protagonists unless you have a constantly expanding market.

This is basically a marginal utility issue, though. One extra female protagonist in a market where there's only one is incredibly valuable since it doubles the options; one extra male protagonist in a market saturated with them isn't valuable at all since it's just more of something everyone already has plenty of.
 
Nobody is yet, but stranger things have happened. It was hypothetical (and maybe a little too hyperbolic).

So you're just concerned about the video game bogeyman?

Gaming survived the "won't someone please think of the children!?" era, and that shit had both political pressure AND the moral right on its ass. I think it can handle criticism from no one more famous than a YouTube content creator.
 

Circinus

Member
Haven't seen the last 2 episodes yet, but it was great, informative, eloquently spoken and explained so far. Kudos to the creator!

Haven't really followed the GamerGate debacle, but I did watch Anita Sarkeesian's Tropes vs. Women videos (and I thought they were good and informative).
 

fester

Banned
This is a really great video series and I've shared it with a bunch of friends. Incredibly impressed with the content, presentation, and insight.
 

spekkeh

Banned
I think he's really spot on with a lot of observations, and he got very much under the skin of 'angry jack', some of it might even hit home a bit for me, even if I was very much against gamergate.

Though I wish he didn't frame it in a number of Marxist ideas. As a liberal, that makes it difficult for me to disseminate it.

trigger warnings and microaggressions trigger some real macroaggressions inside me
 

Ty4on

Member
To those who liked the video and still haven't seen it, This Is Phil Fish is still great. Even on GAF you'll see people latching onto anything negative against people in the industry for having said something stupid once. That is why I try not to mention people within GG. I mention TB too much, but try to frame it around his popularity and fanbase rather than himself. Call me out if I don't.
 

Teuoxton

Member
So you're just concerned about the video game bogeyman?

Gaming survived the "won't someone please think of the children!?" era, and that shit had both political pressure AND the moral right on its ass. I think it can handle criticism from no one more famous than a YouTube content creator.
No bogeyman, and I am not afraid for gamings survival in any of my posts. I did not even mention a youtube content creator...

You are right that it can survive though.
 

Terrell

Member
Another aspect of the GamerGate debate that the video doesn't touch on is how both sides of the coin may have a different philosophy on the morality of their actions, so to speak.

8-Bit Philosophy had a video that pointed this out to me.

After many years of doing so, gamers can instinctually feel it is "our duty" to protect "our" hobby. Not A hobby, "OUR" hobby. This puts Gamergate in line with the philosophy of Kant, where the means used for protecting video games are irrelevant, as is your success or failure to achieve it; so long as the hobby remains as protected as you can achieve, those actions serve a moral good through rationalization and their "duty" is done. And the only thing stopping people from justifying their actions in such a way is if they can no longer rationalize the actions used and betrayed their moral duty in other facets (see: the Gamergate population decline when some people saw it as a hate campaign).

On the flip side, those who argue for inclusion, the end of stereotypes and other things of that nature likely subscribe to the philosophy of John Stuart Mill when it comes to morality, where an action is only morally good if it brings happiness, so long as it makes the largest amount of people possible happier and/or makes few to no people unhappy through the result of the action (excluding things like another person's sheer disappointment that you engaged in the action at all). And they see a world without these issues in video games (and media in general) as making the largest amount of people happy and only making a small amount of people unhappy and thus may deem any detraction from this goal as morally reprehensible at worst.

And since both sides have an completely conflicted view of the value in their choices, common ground cannot be found for most people. But since Kant and Mill's philosophies don't necessarily have to work in the binary sense, this really only 100% applies to the extremes on both sides of the discussion.
 

Misha

Banned
Just finished that and This is Phil Fish. Very interesting to watch and i think they cover a large amount of the things leading to the phenomena. They don't seem particularly useful to show to the type of people it covers but i'm pretty sure they mentioned that wasn't the point.

I really didn't expect it but one of the biggest thing I took away from the videos is how I use very similar thinking errors in other (unrelated) situations, and while I don't act on those thoughts in any way, they do at times cause me to resent other people and feel frustrated.

I'm glad they made the blog post in the end as that covered most of my concerns that seemed missing
 

Veelk

Banned
Another aspect of the GamerGate debate that the video doesn't touch on is how both sides of the coin may have a different philosophy on the morality of their actions, so to speak.

8-Bit Philosophy had a video that pointed this out to me.

After many years of doing so, gamers can instinctually feel it is "our duty" to protect "our" hobby. Not A hobby, "OUR" hobby. This puts Gamergate in line with the philosophy of Kant, where the means used for protecting video games are irrelevant, as is your success or failure to achieve it; so long as the hobby remains as protected as you can achieve, those actions serve a moral good through rationalization and their "duty" is done. And the only thing stopping people from justifying their actions in such a way is if they can no longer rationalize the actions used and betrayed their moral duty in other facets (see: the Gamergate population decline when some people saw it as a hate campaign).

On the flip side, those who argue for inclusion, the end of stereotypes and other things of that nature likely subscribe to the philosophy of John Stuart Mill when it comes to morality, where an action is only morally good if it brings happiness, so long as it makes the largest amount of people possible happier and/or makes few to no people unhappy through the result of the action (excluding things like another person's sheer disappointment that you engaged in the action at all). And they see a world without these issues in video games (and media in general) as making the largest amount of people happy and only making a small amount of people unhappy and thus may deem any detraction from this goal as morally reprehensible at worst.

And since both sides have an completely conflicted view of the value in their choices, common ground cannot be found for most people. But since Kant and Mill's philosophies don't necessarily have to work in the binary sense, this really only 100% applies to the extremes on both sides of the discussion.

Kant's philosophy apply to insofar as GG are placed in a delusional state where they think their hobby is threatened by female presence, which it's not. In fact, my motivation for doing it is primarily to better the medium. Which is not to say I don't have sympathy for the real life women hurt by this, but I merely mean to say I have no personal stake in it as I have no close personal female gamer enthusiast friends. No one I know personally has been affected by GG, so this is mostly an internet thing for me. So I am seeking to improve the medium. Inclusion of women won't just be a neutral effect on games, it will make games themselves better, where you can explore different view points and understand different people. GG are one of the people who are harming gaming more than anyone, because there is so much room to explore who other people are in games. Atleast insofar as I've studied how various artistic works function, GG is in the moral wrong of both Kant and Mill's philosophy. They're damaging the thing they're trying to protect in their ignorance while also hurting many real life people. GG is an epic fail on every level. They have no moral leg to stand on.
 

Terrell

Member
Kant's philosophy apply to insofar as GG are placed in a delusional state where they think their hobby is threatened by female presence, which it's not. In fact, my motivation for doing it is primarily to better the medium. Which is not to say I don't have sympathy for the real life women hurt by this, but I merely mean to say I have no personal stake in it as I have no close personal female gamer enthusiast friends. So I am primarily seeking to improve the medium. Inclusion of women won't just be a neutral effect on games, it will make games themselves better, where you can explore different view points and understand different people. GG are one of the people who are harming gaming more than anyone, because there is so much room to explore who other people are in games. Atleast insofar as I've studied how various artistic works function, GG is in the moral wrong of both Kant and Mill's philosophy.

Kant seems to posit that rationality and duty are part of what is morally good, but never makes the distinction of where that rationality comes from. If the individual sees it as "rational" within their particular world view, even if others do not, the philosophical theory is (unfortunately) still relevant. For GG, due to past aggressions against gaming, they see the need to defend it from all others "since no one else will or can" as their categorical imperative. It's one of the major criticisms to his philosophy on morality, particularly from Schopenhauer, who stated that "if an action has as its motive an egoistic aim, it cannot have any moral worth", and asserts that categorical imperatives are not universal but hypothetical.
 

Veelk

Banned
Kant seems to posit that rationality and duty are part of what is morally good, but never makes the distinction of where that rationality comes from. If the individual sees it as "rational" within their particular world view, even if others do not, the philosophical theory is (unfortunately) still relevant. For GG, due to past aggressions against gaming, they see the need to defend it from all others "since no one else will or can" as their categorical imperative. It's one of the major criticisms to his philosophy on morality, particularly from Schopenhauer, who stated that "if an action has as its motive an egoistic aim, it cannot have any moral worth", and asserts that categorical imperatives are not universal but hypothetical.

I don't object where the rationality of GG comes from, I am arguing against the notion that they have rationality at all, or atleast a functional one. Even the example you gave, that's rationale for them being apprehensive at best, but any halfway thorough examination of Anita's video's provides that they are not an attack, or that they would be an effective one even if they were. And if that is the case, there have been thousands of attacks on gaming they have failed to even try to stop before GG ever became a thing. They wouldn't argue that they were being immoral at the time, because it is insane to think that gaming should immune to any criticism.

A rationality has to remain consistent to be with facts and reason to be rationality at all. Rationality implies the conformity of one's beliefs with one's reasons to believe, or of one's actions with one's reasons for action.

Gamergate is not rational. There have been numerous instances where their actions contradicted their stated beliefs. It would be like if I wanted to protect my dog. Someone tried to poison him before. So, as a result, my rational is that my dog should not eat any food so that he won't be poisoned. In duty to protect my dog, I have intentionally killed him because I do not associate myself with the fact that he needs to eat. Because my motivation is so rationally incongruent with my action, I cannot said to have been Kantian moral. Or else, if you're going to dilute rationality to just "X's perspective" however inconsistent it is, then I fail to differentiate it between moral relativity. At this point, X is just doing whatever the hell he wants, and it's always going to be moral because reason and rationality have no place in justifying his rationale.
 
No bogeyman, and I am not afraid for gamings survival in any of my posts. I did not even mention a youtube content creator...

You are right that it can survive though.

The point was that to many, the biggest "threat" to games is Anita, someone who just makes critical videos of stuff in games. And that if you're worried about these critics hurting games for you, you probably shouldn't be.
 

Terrell

Member
I don't object where the rationality of GG comes from, I am arguing against the notion that they have rationality at all, or atleast a functional one. Even the example you gave, that's rationale for them being apprehensive at best, but any halfway thorough examination of Anita's video's provides that they are not an attack, or that they would be an effective one even if they were. And if that is the case, there have been thousands of attacks on gaming they have failed to even try to stop before GG ever became a thing. They wouldn't argue that they were being immoral at the time, because it is insane to think that gaming should immune to any criticism.

A rationality has to remain consistent to be with facts and reason to be rationality at all. Rationality implies the conformity of one's beliefs with one's reasons to believe, or of one's actions with one's reasons for action.

Gamergate is not rational. There have been numerous instances where their actions contradicted their stated beliefs. It would be like if I wanted to protect my dog. Someone tried to poison him before. So, as a result, my rational is that my dog should not eat any food so that he won't be poisoned. In duty to protect my dog, I have intentionally killed him because I do not associate myself with the fact that he needs to eat. Because my motivation is so rationally incongruent with my action, I cannot said to have been Kantian moral. Or else, if you're going to dilute rationality to just "X's perspective" however inconsistent it is, then I fail to differentiate it between moral relativity. At this point, X is just doing whatever the hell he wants, and it's always going to be moral because reason and rationality have no place in justifying his rationale.

In your analogy to the dog, you lose something by applying the method you describe. To a GGer, they lose nothing in applying the same logic, as they see little issue with the status quo of the industry. So applying Kantian morality gives them a "nothing to lose" war of ideals to fight.

The Kantian logic comes in when you look at what they propose they are about, even if further examination indicates it's not: ethics in game journalism.

Anita Sarkeesian was not the problem per se, it was that the press began to promote her success and "saw" a media conspiracy intent on completely changing the narrative of video games yet again to a negative. Her, Zoe Quinn, Leigh Alexander and every other woman who was being "signal boosted" by the press were the problem.
So they either believed that they were influencing/coercing the media into shoehorning "SJW" topics into the public eye as detrimental (especially the story from them regarding Quinn) or they became the identifiable talking head for this false perception (as with Anita Sarkeesian). Because the last time that all the press could talk about was someone who was repeatedly saying bad things about games was... *drumroll* Jack Fucking Thompson, and he was a master at getting the press to talk about him. So ladies like Quinn and Sarkeesian became the "poster girls" for manipulation of the press and a "falsified" talking point against video games.
Which is why, in their attempts to silence the dissent, they manipulated it into being a media discussion, an attempt to kill two birds with one stone and expose the media for its "SJW" slant that must have been coerced out of them while also ridding themselves of the ones who made it happen. And while I fully understand that there's a flaw in the logic there, because it automatically supposes that talk of equality, tropes, etc. is due to manipulation and coercion, the press wasn't exactly slim pickings when it came to stories of how their opinions have been questionably manipulated before, so the story became just believable enough that a bandwagon was built and people could find a rational reason to jump on it.

Whether their rationality is bound in fact is not even relevant. To discuss fact in rationality is folly, since modern neuroscience has rendered philosophers' ideas of rationality mostly moot in that we can scientifically prove that no form of rationality occurring from the human mind is dispassionate and always slants due to emotions on the subjects we attempt to apply rational thought to. So clinging to the works of Grayling when discussing rationality is a foolish errand, especially when applied in the same breath as morality. With Kant, the categorical imperative only requires an autonomous will, which can divorce itself from reason and fact at any moment, leaving only a corrupt rationale.
Also, Kantian morality intersects unfavourably with the work of Descartes, in that they are certain because they cast no doubts on what they perceive to be true (as Descartes says several people do to their own detriment) and therefore, their thoughts can be applied "rationally", but only to themselves and those with like-minded "rational" thoughts on the subject.
 
Watched up to part four before I got too depressed to continue, even though they really didn't tell me anything I didn't know already. Will watch parts five and six some other day. The whole thing is so depressing to me, even though I've long ago given up on trying to understand mankind.

We must change ourselves before we change the world and we have the power to do both.

I was under the assumption that we are the world. How can we change one without changing the other? Your point on how bad would be to create laws regulating media is hard to refute, which is probably why nobody including Sarkeesian ever suggested doing so.
 
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