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[EstoyBlackWaldo]

Boggles my mind. Easiest excuse I can see being used is "Because I can't relate." I bet these are the same guys that won't hesitate to play women or a black man (cuz its lol funny) in a online game however, just so long as they aren't part of the narrative, you know, because it doesn't make sense, you know. Completely unrealistic. If I didn't have the longest eyeroll reading some of the replys in that thread.

 

[Apoleptica]

I think both sides make a big deal out of nothing. RDR2 is a cowboy game set in 1800's western America and rockstar are making the main character a white cowboy and people are offended about this? If the game was set in Asia or Africa and the main character was a white male then I would understand the outrage. Otherwise I think it's fine.
People being mad about playing as a white male is racist and sexist. It's hypocrisy.

 

[bananafactory]

Extremists on all sides are dumb, no matter the issue.

Diversity just to add diversity without thought is dumb and can be offensive, but it's also dumb to not include it because the creators might not be comfortable with it.

It likely all goes back to the lack of diversity in games development on the AAA scale, and that's a real shame.

But I mean, isn't that how all these white dudes end up in games? There's no thought to that either, it's the default for most mainstream western media.

So if you're just going to make a character without thinking about their race or gender then why not make it a black woman?

Thats why people get irritated.

 

[Delusibeta]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1295765

Its a 51-page thread, but I think the amount of bannings there speak for themselves.

Ironically, the poster that started that shitshow remains unbanned.

 

[kruis]

So this RDR2 trainwreck of a thread forced me to make this topic because this is something I've been questioning myself a while ago when it comes to video games.

Whenever video games tries to add more diversity through people of color or women, some people throughout the internet get their jimmies rustled and act like as Es-Jay-Doubleyoos are ruining their ''precious'' video games. And it doesn't help that there a certain amount people on GAF who are in some ways or another scoff at representation for video games or be like this: ''I don't mind blacks, LGBT or female characters as long they don't shoehorn it'', ''What's the big deal? None of it matters.'', ''Artistic integrity!'', and so on. I just can't help but think that dozens of people on Gaming GAF are ignorant. Or worse, racist/sexist and they just don't know it.

So, help me understand, GAF. What makes adding minorities (in terms of race or sexuality) or women in video games that makes some people riled up?

Most of the time diversity is shoehorned in. A diverse cast for a game or movie set in modern times? No problem, in particular for multi player games. But a diverse cast in a historic setting is forcing a square peg in a round hole.

I can check two of the "minority" boxes myself but personally I don't need to be represented to enjoy a game or movie. Actually I'm rather tired of posters always complaining about the lack of minority characters in a videogame or movie. Whenever a new movie or games comes out, there's the same discussion again. Like clockwork. Every single time.

And it's sad that people get banned for saying this.

 

[Pau]

Westerns are extra funny in this regard since our pop culture-derived perception of the time period stems from 20th century cinema which was thoroughly whitewashed.

Yup exactly.

People get their history from pop culture and then say that inclusion is historically inaccurate when that's not the case. Then the cycle continues. Anything outside of that is seen as an exception and thus not worth it's own story. And yet here I thought many stories, especially in video games, are about people who end up being exceptional.

 

[Balb]

On one hand I am annoyed at people who get riled up when a game is or isn't diverse because I legitimately want to respect the artistic vision of the creators.

On the other hand the artistic vision argument is pretty much only valid for indies because everything else goes through several planet-deep layers of soulless bureaucracy and marketing to maximize marketability and profitability, artistic vision be damned.

I don't know how to solve this problem. Ideally I would like to solve the second problem first, though.

Yeah, the "artistic vision" argument isn't as valid when we know for a fact that some developers get shot down by higher-ups when they want to include non-white male protagonists.

 

[Servbot24]

"When you are accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression." seems at least a little appropriate.

Yeah, came to post this more or less.

While I encourage empathy and trying to understand different points of view, being opposed to diversity in games is morally wrong and does not deserve acknowledgement imo.

 

[Zolo]

The real actual reason most people get riled up is because someone is talking negatively about something they like when they're trying to get excited and look for all the "hype" in order to feel validated. People want announcement threads to be celebrations of this thing they're so hyped for, so they get really ticked off when people express any form of disappointment.

It doesn't even just have to be race or gender issues, the same happens with frame rates, graphics, characters, writing, dialogue, etc. When people want to be in their hype bubble, they lash out at anything that might pop it.

Tie in a lack of understanding and empathy towards minority/gender issues and bam: you've got a really shitty, dismissive post.

Oh right. This too. People will often see an attack on things they like as an attack on them.

 

[CrayToes]

I really don't understand the outrage from either side. Especially as it's based on one image with very little information or context.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Most of the time diversity is shoehorned in. A diverse cast for a game or movie set in modern times? No problem, in particular for multi player games. But a diverse cast in a historic setting is forcing a square peg in a round hole.

I can check two of the minority boxes yet I'm rather tired of posters always complaining about the lack of minority characters in a videogame or movie. I don't need to be represented to enjoy a game or movie.

And it's sad that people get banned for saying this.

I'd just like to say that it says a lot that including non-white characters in a work of fiction can ever be considered "shoehorning"

 

[letmetrythisname]

Ironically, the poster that started that shitshow remains unbanned.

Thanks, I was scared to say it myself.

 

[Suburban Thug]

Anything that threatens someone's comfort zones will be met with resistance.

This more than anything

 

[Randam]

I take games as they come.

If I get 7 males, then that is what the developers wanted.
If they put in girls, gays etc then that is what they wanted also.


I really don't care.
But there is a reason, why games turn out the way they do.

 

[Kinyou]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1295765

Its a 51-page thread, but I think the amount of bannings there speak for themselves.

I'm surprised it even sparked such a big discussion. Personally I find it a bit hard to tell the specific ethnicities from RDR2's teaser poster. They're all heavily contrasted silhouettes

 

[Quonny]

But I mean, isn't that how all these white dudes end up in games? There's no thought to that either, it's the default for most mainstream western media.

So if you're just going to make a character without thinking about their race or gender then why not make it a black woman?

Thats why people get irritated.

If you can't empathize with your character it's harder to write for them.

Plus, there's the whole "play to your base". There are a ton more white males playing games than black women. I'm not making excuses for these companies, but it is an unfortunate reality. There are a ton of stories about how developers wanted X character on the cover or a certain race/gender but the publisher said that those games don't sell.

It's a bad loop with a lot of circumstances that just don't allow for well thought out, prominent diversity.

 

[EstoyBlackWaldo]

Extremists on all sides are dumb, no matter the issue.

Diversity just to add diversity without thought is dumb and can be offensive, but it's also dumb to not include it because the creators might not be comfortable with it.

It likely all goes back to the lack of diversity in games development on the AAA scale, and that's a real shame.

Honestly, its only offensive and becomes trivial when diversity is added along with stereotypes instead of actually writing a good narrative like they'll do for characters that aren't diverse.

 

[purseowner]

Even just thinking back on game design discussions I've had on GAF over the years, many are in gaming for the power fantasy more than anything. Whether that relates to an innate need for a protagonist that looks like them probably needs some closer examination.

True. Was just pondering this. And if these people equate 'power' to burly white men and feel unable to apply that concept to any other type of protagonist, that's more than a bit narrow-minded and sad.

 

[Actual]

Doesn't is depend on the context of the game though? It's not like there were a bunch of black gay cowboys in 1911.

 

[L Thammy]

A lot of people recently seem to be upset at other races being in their country, so it's not too surprising that some people are upset at other races being in their video games.

 

[Wulfram]

Most of the time diversity is shoehorned in. A diverse cast for a game or movie set in modern times? No problem, in particular for multi player games. But a diverse cast in a historic setting is forcing a square peg in a round hole.

Um, that very much depends. There are plenty of diverse places in history. Often I'd say the more interesting places.

And indeed there are still quite a lot of rather un-diverse modern places.

 

[BlizzKrut]

Even just thinking back on game design discussions I've had on GAF over the years, many are in gaming for the power fantasy more than anything. Whether that relates to an innate need for a protagonist that looks like them probably needs some closer examination.

You can play a videogame for thousands of different reasons, I know people who play them to experience new things, people who play with characters that look like themselves, people who play the most distant race from a human being, etc, I don't think questioning why you play videogames is very beneficial to this thread which is making a different question all-together.

 

[Nickle]

So people got triggered by the possibility of playing as a woman/minority in RDR2?

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Shortcomings? Because the cast doesn't seem to include minorities or females?

Yes lack of diversity or inclusion can be seen as a shortcoming. What is so wrong with that?

People look at this from the wrong angle when they get so defensive. It's not about a witch hunt and calling devs racist. It is about opening up a dialogue and raising awareness for the issue, so that the people in charge know that it is important to some. There is no denying that this industry, in all facets whether it's the media side, the dev side, and the publisher side is overwhelmingly white and male. I want better inclusion and representation in all of these areas because from there it's a domino effect. People don't want tokens, people don't want developers visions to be compromised, what people want are genuine forms of representation and until that happens I don't see a problem in raising the issue. When have you ever known a problem to get fixed because people kept their mouths shut and just waited for it to happen?

 

[Pau]

Most of the time diversity is shoehorned in. A diverse cast for a game or movie set in modern times? No problem, in particular for multi player games. But a diverse cast in a historic setting is forcing a square peg in a round hole.

I can check two of the "minority" boxes myself yet I'm rather tired of posters always complaining about the lack of minority characters in a videogame or movie. I don't need to be represented to enjoy a game or movie.

And it's sad that people get banned for saying this.

If there's any historic setting that calls for a diverse cast and world, it's the Wild West. Treating that world as if only white men were part of it is historically inaccurate.

 

[Mesoian]

That's not directed to me but that question doesn't make a lot of sense, what does the reason for playing a videogame (supposedly for fun, relaxation, etc...) has to do with race and discrimination?

Quite a bit really. If the only reason one plays videos games is for challenge, then sure, the trappings of a game will never matter because that one is dedicated to doing as best they can for the frame work given. But those types of games are becoming fewer and further between as we move on, being replaced by games with sprawling narratives and diverse worlds (of varying degrees of quality). More and more, we're moving to a world where games are expected to be mirrors of reality, art imitating life, in a way that captivates the player. People expect emersion while indulging their escapism. So it's not all that difficult to ask that diversity be, at the very least, considered in these microcosms of art that we're being asked by the developers and publishers to enjoy.

Because, at the end of the day, we do care about what's in our games. No one is buying 1 video game, giving a hard nod and saying "this is all I'll ever need because it has the challenge I want and I don't care about anything else". That's not how consuming interactive media works.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Yeah, the "artistic vision" argument isn't as valid when we know for a fact that some developers get shot down by higher-ups when they want to include non-white male protagonists.

In the case of Rockstar, do you really think that happens to them? Particularly when their two best selling games either exclusively star a minority character or has them in a prominent playable role.

 

[Rexatality]

Most of the time diversity is shoehorned in. A diverse cast for a game or movie set in modern times? No problem, in particular for multi player games. But a diverse cast in a historic setting is forcing a square peg in a round hole.

I can check two of the "minority" boxes myself yet I'm rather tired of posters always complaining about the lack of minority characters in a videogame or movie. I don't need to be represented to enjoy a game or movie.

And it's sad that people get banned for saying this.

Then please, define me in what ways that diversity can be shoehorned in? I've seen that argument multiple times and I've never once seen any valid backing to it.

 

[Stitch]

All we have is 1 picture with some shadowy figures on it. Maybe they aren't even playable characters. Maybe there's a character creator.

There are really better things you guys could do. Like waiting for the NX reveal 🙌

 

[Balb]

It's a bad sign when people in this thread think using characters who aren't white or male is considered shoehorning. Why does their inclusion have to be justified?

 

[Quonny]

Honestly, its only offensive and becomes trivial when diversity is added along with stereotypes instead of actually writing a good narrative like they'll do for characters that aren't diverse.

I agree with this. It's unfortunate that these stereotypes are more common than not because you don't have that balance on the development team. You don't have people that can empathize with said character (for whatever reason) going "hey, wait a second..."

Of course this is only one issue in a mine field of issues.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Ironically, the poster that started that shitshow remains unbanned.

Because they pointed out a really good issue based on the information given.

 

[Eumi]

No one can figure out what level of diversity is acceptable.

I mean, take overwatch. You've got people angry at its ''''unrealistically'''' non-white cast (generally these being the ones you can safely ignore), but then there are people who couldn't care less, people who like it, people who like it so much that it validates the game for them, people who like the diversity to such an extent that a recent costume giving a poc chalk white (not caucasian) skin feels like a betrayal, people who feel that there needs to be gay representation despite no characters having any confirmed sexualities gay or otherwise, and people who see the game as just another example of the terrible state of diversity in video games.

A correct level of diversity does not and will never exist. It's a very personal thing to each person, which is why arguments of it tend to bring out the worst in people.

The only thing I think most people agree on is that we can do better than we're doing now.

 

[rainsten]

Because if they give Ryo Hazuki brown hair instead of black in promotional kickstarter material we Shenmue fans will take action

 

[bananafactory]

If you can't empathize with your character it's harder to write for them.

Plus, there's the whole "play to your base". There are a ton more white males playing games than black women. I'm not making excuses for these companies, but it is an unfortunate reality. There are a ton of stories about how developers wanted X character on the cover or a certain race/gender but the publisher said that those games don't sell.

It's a bad loop with a lot of circumstances that just don't allow for well thought out, prominent diversity.

I agree there's a marketing angle to it, and I don't think devs or writers are bad people or anything for sticking with what they know.

I'm just saying, you can hire writers with the right background for the story or characters you want to tell. You can consult with people on your staff and reflect on their experiences. There's ways to do it. It's possible. But it is more work and when game development is such a risky business (especially in the AAA space) I understand why they play it 'safe'

 

[aeolist]

Most of the time diversity is shoehorned in. A diverse cast for a game or movie set in modern times? No problem, in particular for multi player games. But a diverse cast in a historic setting is forcing a square peg in a round hole.

I can check two of the "minority" boxes myself yet I'm rather tired of posters always complaining about the lack of minority characters in a videogame or movie. I don't need to be represented to enjoy a game or movie.

And it's sad that people get banned for saying this.

why is it shoehorning when there's a diverse cast but just normal or unremarkable when it's 100% white and/or male?

also the historical arguments people use are frequently a load of shit. i'm thinking of threads about the order 1886 (victorian london was extremely diverse) and the witcher (VERY loosely based on medieval poland, which was mostly white but had one of the largest jewish populations in the world for hundreds of years).

 

[Gator86]

The real actual reason most people get riled up is because someone is talking negatively about something they like when they're trying to get excited and look for all the "hype" in order to feel validated. People want announcement threads to be celebrations of this thing they're so hyped for, so they get really ticked off when people express any form of disappointment.

It doesn't even just have to be race or gender issues, the same happens with frame rates, graphics, characters, writing, dialogue, etc. When people want to be in their hype bubble, they lash out at anything that might pop it.

Tie in a lack of understanding and empathy towards minority/gender issues and bam: you've got a really shitty, dismissive post.

Please provide stats, otherwise tales from your ass.

Even the questions about diversity are hilariously biased. As other posters have mentioned, there is no reason to treat white people as the default and have to justify inclusion of non-white people. White people are a global minority and a rapidly shrinking majority in the US. Things don't just magically feature white people. They feature white people for very tangible, institutional reasons, all of which are shit that needs to be changed.

It's a bad sign when people in this thread think using characters who aren't white or male is considered shoehorning. Why does their inclusion have to be justified?

Fucking absolutely.

 

[SgtCobra]

It's both, unfortunatly.

It's definitely both yes. I don't care who I get to play as but I see enough people who straight up get mad when the lead characters isn't what they wanted it to be. That infamous GTA San Andreas thread is seriously embarrassing.

There are really better things you guys could do. Like waiting for the NX reveal 🙌

I'm not going to descend myself into that Abyss of madness.

 

[rhandino]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1295765

Its a 51-page thread, but I think the amount of bannings there speak for themselves.

They banned ninjablade?

The NX launch games reveal threads are going to sorely miss him

Spoiler

/s

 

[Primethius]

The shoehorn reasoning always strikes me as hilarious because white characters don't have to justify their presence but minority ones do.

 

[The Albatross]

I think you have it backwards. It's people getting riled up when there ISN'T diversity in a game.

As a white dude I've never had a problem with who or what I play as in a video game, but enough people seem to take issue so I know I need to recognize it as a real problem that needs to be addressed.

Yeah, the RDR2 thread turned to this quickly, complaints about there not being enough diversity in the cast.

My early point was, well, let's not get ahead of ourselves, all we've seen is a promo shot, and had we gone from the original RDR press releases, then we wouldn't have known that one of the main characters is a woman and she's one of the best woman characters that videogames has ever given us (Hell, she's one of the best characters in general).

Rockstar, in general, has been ahead of the curve on minority represented characters in their videogames. So, maybe we should wait until we actually see more of the story before assuming that this is an "all male whitewashing" or something to that affect.

 

[Kinyou]

So people got triggered by the possibility of playing as a woman/minority in RDR2?

Sounds like it was the other way around. People got mad about a lack of diversity and then people got mad at those.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Most of the time diversity is shoehorned in. A diverse cast for a game or movie set in modern times? No problem, in particular for multi player games. But a diverse cast in a historic setting is forcing a square peg in a round hole.

Whitewashing, how does it work. Reading anything outside of your preconceived whitewashed view of history will reveal a much more diverse history that gets downplayed at best and at worse completely glossed over.

I can check two of the "minority" boxes myself but personally I don't need to be represented to enjoy a game or movie. Actually I'm rather tired of posters always complaining about the lack of minority characters in a videogame or movie. Whenever a new movie or games comes out, there's the same discussion again. Like clockwork. Every single time.

And it's sad that people get banned for saying this.

Because it's still an issue, being vocal and voicing that same criticism over and over is the only way for things to change.

The shoehorn reasoning always strikes me as hilarious because white characters don't have to justify there presence but minority ones do.

Exactly. Coupled with the fact that WAY more often, diversity isn't shoehorned, maintaining the status quo is. Creators have gone on record talking about how they were forced to change things to make them more "marketable."

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

Almost anybody would tell you it was a bunch of white dudes and nothing else in the wild west. Because that's almost entirely how it was represented in fiction.

The question then becomes this: Is RDR supposed to evoke and represent the old west as it really was, or is it supposed to evoke the big western fantasies of Hollywood films set in the period?

People will be just as split over what they want out of the game. Those who want option B probably aren't going to be as interested in diverse characters.

 

[Aizen.S.Kennedy]

Doesn't is depend on the context of the game though? It's not like there were a bunch of black gay cowboys in 1911.

What makes you so sure about that? Actual history books or info gathered from whitewashed media over the years? At least a 1/3 of cowboys were black. And gay ppl didn't just appear randomly in the 80s..

 

[jem0208]

I don't really understand how people can't "relate" to characters of the other sex or different ethnicities.

We're all people, if you can't emphasise with someone because they have a different skin colour etc. then you have a problem.

 

[letmetrythisname]

No one can figure out what level of diversity is acceptable.

I mean, take overwatch. You've got people angry at its ''''unrealistically'''' non-white cast (generally these being the ones you can safely ignore), but then there are people who couldn't care less, people who like it, people who like it so much that it validates the game for them, people who like the diversity to such an extent that a recent costume giving a poc chalk white (not caucasian) skin feels like a betrayal, people who feel that there needs to be gay representation despite no characters having any confirmed sexualities gay or otherwise, and people who see the game as just another example of the terrible state of diversity in video games.

A correct level of diversity does not and will never exist. It's a very personal thing to each person, which is why arguments of it tend to bring out the worst in people.

The only thing I think most people agree on is that we can do better than we're doing now.

This says it best. Its personal nature makes it difficult to discuss.

 

[Pau]

Doesn't is depend on the context of the game though? It's not like there were a bunch of black gay cowboys in 1911.

I've seen stats that one in four to one in three cowboys were black. Who knows about their sexual orientation though.

 

[Mesoian]

I take games as they come.

If I get 7 males, then that is what the developers wanted.
If they put in girls, gays etc then that is what they wanted also.


I really don't care.
But there is a reason, why games turn out the way they do.

...okay. But that being said, I don't why the operative response to something that you don't like should be silence just because it was the artist's vision.

No other medium has that stigma. If I watch a bad horror movie, I should stay quiet about it being bad because it was the artist's vision?

 

[shandy706]

I guess it makes some people uncomfortable?

I don't care what the main characters are in a game. I do enjoy more diversity and I always play as a female character when available.

Heck, take something like Mafia 3. I loved Mafia II...and I'm sure I'll like Mafia 3 when I do pick it up. The fact that it's set where/when it is and the background and protagonist it represents has me very interested. I've heard they handled that part well at least and I hope it's true. (although the talk of repetitive stuff worries me) I always hope these games deliver good gameplay too. I love the (eventual) diversity the AC games started bringing, but a lot of the gameplay is sooooo boring. Anyway, getting off subject.

New and diverse types of characters make games more interesting.