Support NeoGAF

[bryehn]

720p or bust.

 

[thebloo]

I think it would be foolish for Nintendo to launch a handheld at those prices. $99 should be their goal, and $199 for their console.

The 3DS and Wii U put Nintendo in the red, there were many reasons for this but the main one was that they were 100-150 dollars more expensive than they should have been.

And how are they supposed to do that? Put air in a box?

 

[Newline]

You can buy a $200 phone thats quad core, 1080p, ultra thin and can play games at max load for 3-4hours plus...

It's not a case of it cant be done right now, and it certainly wont be the case by the time the 3ds's successor is released.

We all know the real reason it wont be done is because Nintendo simply doesn't want it to. It's totally wrong to expect it from Nintendo because they don't focus on that stuff. Anyone coming up with other excuses is skirting round that issue and well it's not even an issue that needs to be diverted from. Nintendo has been this way for years, it's their jam.

 

[ZeroX03]

You can buy a $200 phone thats quad core, 1080p, ultra thin and can play games at max load for 3-4hours plus...

What phone can do that?

 

[Meffer]

OP is absolutely right. And I understand why you made this thread since it would've been drowned by many posts.

 

[finalflame]

You can buy a $200 phone thats quad core, 1080p, ultra thin and can play games at max load for 3-4hours plus...

It's not a case of it cant be done right now, and it certainly wont be the case by the time the 3ds's successor is released.

We all know the real reason it wont be done is because Nintendo simply doesn't want it to. Anyone coming up with other excuses is skirting round that issue and well it's not even an issue that needs to be diverted from. Nintendo has been this way for years, it's their jam.

Please show me a phone that can do that and is $200 without a carrier subsidy.

 

[ZeroX03]

Please show me a phone that can do that and is $200 without a carrier subsidy.

And profitable.

 

[Roldan]

So many 3DS resolution threads today that we could do a drinking game about that.

But yeah, I don't think anyone would/should expect that. It's unrealistic because of the energy consumption you mentioned, costs, and well... Nintendo standards, if you know what I mean. lol

 

[The Faceless Master]

Please show me a phone that can do that and is $200 without a carrier subsidy.

does it matter if you already pay for service anyway? most of the US does.

 

[Gestault]

You can buy a $200 phone thats quad core, 1080p, ultra thin and can play games at max load for 3-4hours plus... thats without even buying from a knockoff brand.

What are a few of those phones, specifically?

does it matter if you already pay for service anyway?

Yes, it does matter for a conversation like this, since we're talking about devices that don't involve monthly service fees which would theoretically subsidize the hardware.

 

[Azure Dream]

As I have said in other threads, I would gladly take a single 480p/540p screen with much better graphics than Vita rather than the opposite

The Vita is hardware released in 2011, designed before that. Technology has marched on, especially in the realm of mobile computing. Just because Nintendo wants to sell old, cheap hardware at a high profit margin doesn't mean the rest of the world has to live in that bubble.

 

[Sevyne]

Do I think they should? Yes

Do I think they need to? Well that's a little more tricky to answer.

If the next portable is standalone like every one before it, then they really don't need to really. However, if it's supposed to have some sort of functionality/synergy with their next console, then I think a high resolution screen may be a necessity.

 

[LeleSocho]

Does pixel density really effect power consumption? Why would you need more power, it's still the same surface area, right?

I think it's reasonable to expect 720p but lower wouldn't surprise me.

It sure does.

Going from around 330 PPI to 470 PPI for an LCD IPS display incurs around a 20% power draw increase on the display

Mind you this is a random article i found you'll find more for sure if you search for it.

I feel like every argument against a high res screen decides to ignore that the Vita exists and has the same battery life as the 3ds as well as being higher quality in every hardware/technical area despite coming out for the same or nearly the same price as the original 3ds (weren't they both 250?) nearly immediately afterwards.

It'd be dirt cheap to make a nintendo handheld today that was as powerful and had as high res screen as the Vita. Hell, it might be cheaper to make one with a 720 screen, considering the costs of production of older and oudated poor quality screens.

Well to start the Vita is bigger than the original 3ds, was bigger and had a bigger battery and it sure is/was more expensive to make than a 3ds, also as i said there are games on it that don't manage to push all the pixels of the screen (I don't know if they were sincerely because bad ports or not though).
Also the VIta was sold at loss and the 3ds terribly overpriced (remember the Ambassador thinghy?)

---

I think that 720p screens would be totally feasible if it weren't from the fact that there's an high chance that Nintendo uses two screens for their next console so...

 

[Newline]

Please show me a phone that can do that and is $200 without a carrier subsidy.

Umm all you have to do is look on any of the popular auction sites.

What phone can do that?

Heard of 5200 mAh packs?

 

[finalflame]

does it matter if you already pay for service anyway? most of the US does.

Of course it matters, the price of those devices without a carrier subsidy, is somewhere in the $600-800 range. The only reason they are priced at $200 is because the carrier is subsidizing the cost, which you pay back in the form of a contract.

Further, that business model is quickly going out the window as companies like T-Mobile, ATT, and Sprint jump on the full price/no subsidy model. I am paying the full $749 for my iPhone, with no interest over a period of 2 years in monthly installments. The device by no means cost $199.

Umm all you have to do is look on any of the popular auction sites.


Heard of 5200 mAh packs?

Really? You're comparing the second-hand price of old hardware? That is such utter bullshit. The only fair comparison are new, retail-priced devices, and guess what? Those cost $500+. Get a grip, this argument is getting stale.

 

[Massa]

Nope, Bend developed the engine themselves. They even commented on it being a shame that it only ended up being used for a single game given the work they sunk into it.

Ys Celceta uses the PhyreEngine.

They created a Vita engine using ND's code and assistance as a base.

 

[ArtHands]

This, they should just copy the Vita with some slight alterations (no proprietary memory cards, ditch the dual camera's, ditch rear touch pad) and sell it for $99.

It's a huge upgrade over the 3DS and it's super cheap.

$99? I think they'll be able to sell a vita without dual camera/touch pad/no proprietary memory card for $50

 

[Gestault]

Umm all you have to do is look on any of the popular auction sites.

Oh and battery concerns? Get a 5200mAh pack.

It's a simple thing then. Could you find a few examples of those phones? It's proper to find the examples, as the person making an assertion (or assertion by proxy).

I'm asking because I haven't seen sub-$200 phones anything approaching the performance being suggested. This is a cost-effectiveness topic, more or less.

Edit: Wait, you're comparing secondhand devices and buying separate after-market battery extensions?

 

[The Argus]

I doubt we'll see an AMOLED 2k display on their next handheld, but in this smart phone era shipping a $250 unit with a sub HD display would be really stupid. Just because it won't be able to run games at full resolution isn't a reason not to include one. With this rumored unified OS thdre's no way it won't have a web browser, or Netflix, or even a gallery. Cheap 1080/720P displays exist on $150 knock off tablets, I don't see why Nintendo would go even cheaper.

 

[Newline]

Really? You're comparing the second-hand price of old hardware? That is such utter bullshit. The only fair comparison are new, retail-priced devices, and guess what? Those cost $500+. Get a grip, this argument is getting stale.

No not really.

You've assumed the only thing you can purchase on auction sites are used products lol.

 

[Shiina]

Expecting 1080p is really silly. I just don't want to see pixels anymore. 540p with a good display would be sufficient.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

I think it would be foolish for Nintendo to launch a handheld at those prices. $99 should be their goal, and $199 for their console.

The 3DS and Wii U put Nintendo in the red, there were many reasons for this but the main one was that they were 100-150 dollars more expensive than they should have been.

$99 won't happen unless they want to be so outdated that the market just ignores them. Remember, they now compete with every tablet and smartphone for portable gamers time.

As a result,t hey need ether one hell of a novelty, or they need to make an attractive balance of features to price.

 

[ZeroX03]

Umm all you have to do is look on any of the popular auction sites.


Heard of 5200 mAh packs?

Name names.

A commercially available phone that is $200 or less without subsidy, 1080p, quad core and can drive all cores at max load for 3-4 hours. Preferably with benchmarks.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Why? kids will play whatever their parents buy them.

like tablets?

 

[Newline]

Name names.

5.5'' Fingerprint Unlocked Android 4.4 Cell Phone Quad Core 8GB 1080P 3G NFC OTG

Google it.

 

[finalflame]

No not really.

You've assumed the only thing you can purchase on auction sites are used products lol.

Auction sites are not a retail channel. What, do you expect Nintendo to primarily sell their hardware on eBay? Again, the only fair comparison is MSRP. Stop bringing auction sites into this as that makes no sense, I can also go find Vita/3DS/XL on eBay brand new for discount prices, but that doesn't determine a company's pricing whatsoever.

 

[Palette Swap]

does it matter if you already pay for service anyway? most of the US does.

Umm all you have to do is look on any of the popular auction sites.

It doesn't work like that. When people bring up price X of a phone, it is to point out that if you're a manufacturer, you're still making a profit when you sell it for X. They do it everything else being equal, which means no subsidies and RRP.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

And how are they supposed to do that? Put air in a box?

-540p screen
-Vita specs
-Dual analog stick
-No gimmicks

I dont know if it would be $99 dollars, but my point is that it would be cheap (and obviously a huge upgrade over the 3DS).

I think that would be a smart move from Nintendo.

 

[LeleSocho]

Umm all you have to do is look on any of the popular auction sites.


Heard of 5200 mAh packs?

No more superthin and 200$ then... also you can't compare phone games to console games, there are only a handful of games on the various app stores with the technical prowess of games found elsewhere.

 

[ZeroX03]

5.5'' Fingerprint Unlocked Android 4.4 Cell Phone Quad Core 8GB 1080P 3G NFC OTG

Google it.

Are you for real? Provide a link and benchmarks. I find it hard to believe those things can drive all cores at max load for 4 hours of intensive graphical gaming.

And while we're at it: not from an auction site and from a US-based retailer. There's a bunch of expenses/taxes related to selling items in multiple countries that eBay may not accurately represent.

 

[ArtHands]

I feel like every argument against a high res screen decides to ignore that the Vita exists and has the same battery life as the 3ds as well as being higher quality in every hardware/technical area despite coming out for the same or nearly the same price as the original 3ds (weren't they both 250?) nearly immediately afterwards.

It'd be dirt cheap to make a nintendo handheld today that was as powerful and had as high res screen as the Vita. Hell, it might be cheaper to make one with a 720 screen, considering the costs of production of older and oudated poor quality screens.

How much do you think a Vita that uses and comes with a 2GB internal and 4GB external microSD card will cost?

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

$99 won't happen unless they want to be so outdated that the market just ignores them. Remember, they now compete with every tablet and smartphone for portable gamers time.

As a result,t hey need ether one hell of a novelty, or they need to make an attractive balance of features to price.

Using that logic, Wii/DS/3DS/Wii U would have all failed, only 1 of those 4 did and it was because it launched at 350 dollars.

 

[Gestault]

5.5'' Fingerprint Unlocked Android 4.4 Cell Phone Quad Core 8GB 1080P 3G NFC OTG

Google it.

Assuming everything else about the phone is perfect, if the talk time is 150 min total, what do you think the gaming time will be? A major point raised in the topic is battery life/efficiency.

 

[Roto13]

does it matter if you already pay for service anyway? most of the US does.

I don't pay for the Nintendo Handheld Service already and I'm not going to start.

 

[Newline]

Auction sites are not a retail channel. What, do you expect Nintendo to primarily sell their hardware on eBay? Again, the only fair comparison is MSRP. Stop bringing auction sites into this as that makes no sense, I can also go find Vita/3DS/XL on eBay brand new for discount prices, but that doesn't determine a company's pricing whatsoever.

MSRP is also useless then in that case. The nintendo 3DS used completely outdated technology even at launch, if nintendo wanted to they could have sold it at a much lower price point. They even said it themselves, the decided to go for large markups and high margins because they felt they could.

This cheap tech you can get from various sources simply shows how cheap mobile technology really is to manufacture in this day and age. Nintendo simply doesn't want to produce a high tech handheld and they're well within their right to do so, you don't need to dance around the subject with 'they can't do it's'.

Assuming everything else about the phone is perfect, if the talk time is 150 min total, what do you think the gaming time will be? A major point raised in the topic is battery life/efficiency.

5200mAh+ battery packs are both cheap to manufacture and buy and could easily be housed in a device the size of the 3DS.

 

[Sandfox]

-540p screen
-Vita specs
-Dual analog stick
-No gimmicks

I dont know if it would be $99 dollars, but my point is that it would be cheap (and obviously a huge upgrade over the 3DS).

I think that would be a smart move from Nintendo.

I think ~$150 would be the best price point for a handheld from a sales perspective.

 

[finalflame]

Are you for real? Provide a link and benchmarks. I find it hard to believe those things can drive all cores at max load for 4 hours of intensive graphical gaming.

Apparently we're using cheaply manufactured Chinese phones as a standard. Which is in no way in line with any major electronics manufacturers.

Further, the phone this dude is referring to has an antutu score of ~17k, comparable to a Galaxy S3 and a 3000mah hour battery. Unfortunately, since it's a crap chinese phone, it's impossible to find any legitimate benchmarks that aren't vague, but I doubt its game performance would hold up for what people want at 1080p (the phone's resolution).

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Using that logic, Wii/DS/3DS/Wii U would have all failed, only 1 of those 4 did and it was because it launched at 350 dollars.

read my second sentance. They sold on their novelty factor, and in the 3ds's case, sony's massive stumble with the vita.

wii and ds are the only smash hits at that.

 

[Snapshot King]

It sure does.

Mind you this is a random article i found you'll find more for sure if you search for it.

Well to start the Vita is bigger than the original 3ds, was bigger and had a bigger battery and it sure is/was more expensive to make than a 3ds, also as i said there are games on it that don't manage to push all the pixels of the screen (I don't know if they were sincerely because bad ports or not though).
Also the VIta was sold at loss and the 3ds terribly overpriced (remember the Ambassador thinghy?)

---

I think that 720p screens would be totally feasible if it weren't from the fact that there's an high chance that Nintendo uses two screens for their next console so...

The bolded isn't quite true. The vita is only bigger than the 3ds only if you count certain dimensions only. The original 3ds is basically a small square whereas the Vita is a large rectangle. The Vita was wider, sure, but it was also more comfortable to hold and smaller overall.

 

[Gestault]

"It is just as same as Polystation Three!"

 

[Roto13]

read my second sentance. They sold on their novelty factor, and in the 3ds's case, sony's massive stumble with the vita.

wii and ds are the only smash hits at that.

How many consecutive decades does Nintendo have to dominate the handheld market with underpowered technology before people accept that there's something to their design philosophy and it's not because everyone else is terrible?

 

[finalflame]

MSRP is also useless then in that case. The nintendo 3DS used completely outdated technology even at launch, if nintendo wanted to they could have sold it at a much lower price point. They even said it themselves, the decided to go for large markups and high margins because they felt they could.

This cheap tech you can get from various sources simply shows how cheap mobile technology really is to manufacture in this day and age. Nintendo simply doesn't want to produce a high tech handheld and they're well within their right to do so, you don't need to dance around the subject with 'they can't do it's'.

To quote myself at the beginning of this thread, I never said they couldn't. I essentially just said what you repeated back to me:

At the end of the day, with progress in energy-efficienct APUs as well as smaller and smaller manufacturing processes, it should be possible for Nintendo to release a console that has 6-8 hour battery life with a 720p scree and a generational leap in handheld IQ.

Now, that's not to say I think they will do it. It does not really fall in line with Nintendo's recent business philosophy to release devices that are even close to the edge of tech. So, yah, if I had to guess I think we'll get a 480p or 540p device.

The point is that devices capable of pushing decent graphics at 1080p+ in the mobile market cost upwards of $600 at retail. Expecting a handheld to do the same at a sub-$199 price point is unrealistic, when accounting for profit margins and the R&D cost that goes into a handheld's lifecycle.

 

[Newline]

Apparently we're not using cheaply manufactured Chinese phones as a standard. Which is in no way in line with any major electronics manufacturers.

Further, the phone this dude is referring to has an antutu score of ~17k, comparable to a Galaxy S3 and a 3000mah hour. Unfortunately, since it's a crap chinese phone, it's impossible to find any legitimate benchmarks that aren't vague, but I doubt its game performance would hold up for what people want at 1080p (the phone's resolution).

Cheaply manufactured Chinese phones? Like all phone parts (even up to the high end iPhones) aren't produced in the same Chinese factories lol.

You're trying to defend the indefensible, even if you managed to prove that a 1080p / quad core / 4 hour battery mobile device couldn't be manufactured at a reasonable price point in 2015. Theres absolutely no way it wouldn't be cheap to manufacture in 2016/2017. Mobile tech is currently the fastest paced technology sector. 1440p screens will be old news soon.

Really? You're comparing the second-hand price of old hardware? That is such utter bullshit. The only fair comparison are new, retail-priced devices, and guess what? Those cost $500+. Get a grip, this argument is getting stale.

This is the quote i'm reffering to, you said it's bullshit to compare this kind of hardware. I'm saying the retail price of hardware i'm comparing doesn't matter, the fact it can be manufactured presently is the only thing that matters.

 

[ozfunghi]

A higher res screen costs more.
A higher res screen needs better hardware driving it or it wouldn't make sense.
Better hardware costs more.
Better hardware needs a more powerful battery or it wouldn't make sense (for a handheld).
A more powerful battery costs more.
...

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

How many consecutive decades does Nintendo have to dominate the handheld market with underpowered technology before people accept that there's something to their design philosophy and it's not because everyone else is terrible?

Markets change. It's only major rivals in 20 years had major flaws somewhere. Not so in the age of smartphones and tablets.

 

[ZeroX03]

Cheaply manufactured Chinese phones? Like all phone parts (even up to the high end iPhones) aren't produced in the same Chinese factories lol.

You're trying to defend the indefensible, even if you managed to prove that a 1080p / quad core / 4 hour battery mobile device couldn't be manufactured at a reasonable price point in 2015. Theres absolutely no way it wouldn't be cheap to manufacture in 2016/2017. Mobile tech is currently the fastest paced technology sector. 1440p screens will be old news soon.

He doesn't have to prove that. You made that ridiculous claim and still haven't been able to back it up.

 

[arevin01]

The PS Vita OLED screen looks fantastic to me. I would be okay if the next handheld have similar specs to the Vita.

 

[Snapshot King]

A higher res screen costs more.
A higher res screen needs better hardware driving it or it wouldn't make sense.
Better hardware costs more.
Better hardware needs a more powerful battery or it wouldn't make sense (for a handheld).
A more powerful battery costs more.
...

None of these are strictly true depending on context. A 1080p screen must cost more than a 720p one right now...but both would be likely cheaper than a 240 screen in 2017 because Nintendo would essentially be ordering an archival legacy screen that isn't used in god damn anything else.

 

[outunderthestars]

I think a 540p screen would be ok, if that would allow for easier scaling to and from 1080p.

Is that how it works?

 

[jimi_dini]

You're trying to defend the indefensible, even if you managed to prove that a 1080p / quad core / 4 hour battery mobile device couldn't be manufactured at a reasonable price point in 2015. Theres absolutely no way it wouldn't be cheap to manufacture in 2016/2017.

"cheap" to manufacture.

"only $200 (*)"
(*) 2 year subscription plan included

I don't think Nintendo wants to go into the mobile phone business.