While this is true, there are just certain things in the ps4 that give it the edge. Like I said, it's not just the raw power but the approach to designing the console.
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X1 DDR3 RAM vs PS4 GDDR5 RAM: Both Are Sufficient for Realistic Lighting(Geomerics)
- Thread starter ekim
- Start date
While this is true, there are just certain things in the ps4 that give it the edge. Like I said, it's not just the raw power but the approach to designing the console.
dragonelite
Member
All depends on the memory controller used.
Solid guess i think in 2014~2015 we could be using unified memory on pc too with hyper memory cubes mobo and memory controllers need a complete redesign just like gpu.
Would not be surprised if nvidia volta only came with 512mb~1GB of lvl3~4 cache running at 1TB/S and using the unified memory on pc.
If you want to be able to suspend other another large game or have TV available immediately, I can see why the 3GB are needed. At least MS should offer the option that a game can consume more and thus this fast switch features will be disabled. Just show a message at the start of a game "This game will stop all other games and applications".
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
UE4's Infiltrator demo runs on a single 2GB 680 GTX, AFAIK. I don't think memory is the limiting factor here. I think 4GB of GDDR6 will be the standard GPU config by the end of next year.
Console devs don't have to scrape and scratch for every MB now, so that should help keep costs down. That's the biggest win for them.
TacticalFox88
Banned
It'll be GDDR6 or if we're extremely lucky a potential GDDR7, but I highly doubt it.
To be fair, MS design doesn't seem less good designed from an effiency standpoint.
If you are interested, the following article gives some insight into the silicon lab @MS:
http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/building-xbox-one-an-inside-look/
You can totally see that MS did a LOT of customizations in order to have an optimal system for what they want to achieve.
Devs for both consoles have been working on unfinalized hardware, and it's likely that PS4 devkits were not finalized until recently, so you cannot expect launch-1st year games to even tap the full, hell even 50%, of the consoles' power.
Wait until the 2nd year or so to start seeing the full potential of each console.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Guess work here. I would imagine that when you suspend a game then that games memory snapshot gets written to the hard drive.
Also, when you snap to TV. I can't see why you'd need a large memory footprint. You're only overlaying graphics on top of the HDMI input signal. It shouldn't be a huge memory hog.
I assume that the 3GB OS footprint on One is to ensure that whatever you're doing (multitasking etc.), the UI remains responsive. Unless you believe that after doing a good job with Windows 7 and 8, Windows Phone 7 and 8 and the 360's OS, MS have completely forgotten how to write OSes with a comparatively small footprint.
Writing the snapshot to disk would be pain for fast switching afaik. But yeah - I hope they decrease the footprint over time.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
I didn't understand half of that lol
Still, it looks pretty impressive and if it can give the performance it claims it might well become a standard in the future.
dragonelite
Member
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
If you are playing a game and then use the OS functions then the game stays in memory. If you move to another game then the current game snapshot has to be written to the hard drive. There is no other way.
i wouldnt bet on the footprint of the os staying the same during this gen. im quite sure that microsoft can find ways to reduce it later on if devs think it constraints the development.
if i remember correctly, sony reduced the os footprint of the ps3 os later on via software update, didnt they?
microsoft even changed the disc format of the 360 later on to free up more space.
if i remember correctly, sony reduced the os footprint of the ps3 os later on via software update, didnt they?
microsoft even changed the disc format of the 360 later on to free up more space.
It is very unreasonable to use this as an example of 'ending trends'. First off, PS3 was leagues ahead of the competition. It's also not the limitation of the medium, it's the limitation of the tech. Imagine if Sony were to try and push a new standard this year, after finally having gotten blu-ray through. Vio-Ray this time, 150 GB? Then it's be PS4 ahead of Xbone again in that department to, that's not really required. Remember FFVIII? I do.
This is about adaptation rate. Processing speeds and memory are not affected in the same way, especially when the buses have been largely unchanged for a very long time.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I'd like to see SSD drives based on stacked technologies.
MrCunningham
Member
I wouldn't miss DDR at all, if this became a reality in desktop PC's. Unified RAM sounds amazing, especially for integrated and on board GPU's.
robertsan21
Member
That we even need to have discussions about this is funny. PS4 IS more powerful than Xbox one. Just deal with it people.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
SenjutsuSage is likely referring to all the interesting conversation happening at B3D at the moment, since he's an active member over there. Even ignoring the upgrade rumors, you have people like Dave Baumann coming in with statements like: "I would wager, that when the ESRAM is used effectively, the performance of the Xbox One's graphics subsystem will far an away outstrip any of those discrete parts you mention." (the discrete parts in question being 7770 GHz Edition and 7790, a 1.28 TFLOPS GPU and a 1.79 TFLOPS GPU respectively).
It's great that you have a background in computer graphics, but from first-hand experience I know that doesn't necessarily make you an authority in this case. I also have a degree in Electrical Engineering from a prestigious university, with my master's thesis being from the field of computer graphics, but that still doesn't mean much - my knowledge of modern computer architectures is nevertheless too limited, and the data that is available to us is insufficient. As your peer, I cannot agree with you, we (together with people with far more authority, judging by conversations at B3D and elsewhere) just don't have enough information to be making such definitive statements at the moment.
And making claims like
is certainly not helping your cause; real-time 3D graphics, as opposed to offline 3D rendering, are all about faking as many things as possible in order to achieve better performance and perceived quality while retaining a high enough level of believability.
dragonelite
Member
Well, without the SRAM it is really up shit creek without a paddle.
That also is not a comparison vs the PS4.
No amount of SRAM will make up for a lack of ALUs and ROPs.
bigbaldwolf86
Banned
Was there any need for this? If you really think there will be a large performance difference between the two consoles for multi plat games then I think you are wrong. These companies don't want to annoy either side of the fence so they will be close. Maybe framerate will be better on the PS4 depending on the game bot overall it's not going to be massively different.
How about coming in with a less aggressive post because then you end up looking like an ass. I know the PS4 is more powerful in many ways from what we have heard and discussed in a million threads but it doesn't mean that will necessarily translate to all 3rd party games straight away.
As I said, 1st party games are where the differences will really show IMO and I can't wait for ND to get to grips with the PS4
dragonelite
Member
Yeah, thank god for that!
Oh wait...
Its using an engine as old as cod:Ghost.
If BF4 and MGS5 can 1080p@60fps deliver then we can say yes this is next gen.
googleplex
Member
Beyond3D has become a cesspool of Microsoft boosters, Xbox fan wankery and wishful thinking. Any credibility Beyond3D once had has been fucked off by shit Mods pushing their own Xbox centered agenda.
32mb of ESRAM isn't suddenly going to make the GPU 50% more powerful, give more ram to developers, improve yields or match the bandwith of the 7gigs of GDDR5.
End of story.
The first game to use id Tech 3 was Q3A in 1999, the first game to use Source was CS:S in 2004. That's a five year difference.
I agree that cross-platform games on old engines are not a good barometer though.
iceatcs
Junior Member
Don't forget, Xbox one development way earlier than PS4. Almost one year gap.
Vermillion
Banned
I'm more impressed that 7 gigs are usable. 512mb last gen, right? Half reserved for the OS?
That's 28 times more usable ram for games. And it's faster. Hot damn.
nope. During games, the OS was about 10 MB in size afaik.
Same thing happened with clockspeed though:
PS1: 33Mhz
PS2: 300Mhz
PS3: 3.2 Ghz
PS4: 1.6 Ghz(?)
Pretty much everything will run into a limit eventually. My hunch memory will be the next one to slow down. In fact, suppose that we did get something like 80-128 GB of RAM next gen. How would you fill it up? Disks probably won't be bigger than 100-200 GB. That's basically a whole disk in memory at once. Fat chance at gigabit internet coming to everyone anytime soon either.
Vermillion
Banned
Ah, okay, so just a ~14x difference. Still impressive!
I stand corrected: it's 50 MB
http://www.dailytech.com/Sony+Shrinks+PS3+OS+Gives+Devs+70MB+of+Extra+Memory/article17775.htm
I don't know if this is the footprint when a games is running.
The Janitor
Member
Eventually consoles will evolve to just a stick of GDDR5 RAM that will run everything at infinity framerates, no GPU and CPU needed or anything.
Both CoD Ghosts and Titanfall's engines have very little code in common with Idtech3 and Source, at the very, very least they have whole new renderers!
That is just flat out wrong dude. So wrong.
A large portion of development time was trying to get everything to fucking fit in the limited RAM space.
You honestly thinking making use of the leg room is going to cost an even larger increase in dev time? Lol. Backwards as hell.
What a surprise you showed up in a thread that might have the potential to shit on the Xbox One when talking about power.
Laff.
So? Does that mean that developers using Source are not allowed or able to use higher resolution textures?
BF4 was running on a high end PC, so let's not bring that into discussion. MGS5 had plenty of low res textures.
Having plenty of RAM doesn't guarantee sharp textures. Sure, it helps but aren't you limited by a number of TMUs in your GPU?
Good to know but I do not follow B3D and that statement by Dave guys statement is 100% false. You cannot perform at a higher level than your theoretical maximum. This is a fact you can take to the bank. His comments about the Xbox one graphics subsystem is 100% wrong as if all things were kept equal and the gpus were swapped out, you would achieve better performance on the high-performance gpus mentioned in your quote. The Xbox one will never out perform the ps4. At this point, I have heard and read enough bogus on both gpus, it's not funny. Again, you are right, I'm not more qualified than you but that doesn't mean I'm not right. The proof will be in the pudding. I'm not hyping either console but the fact that people are debating a well known truth is mind boggling. There really is a defense force for everything. When Microsoft tells you that we purposely didn't make the most powerful console, I don't know what anyone is arguing about. Either way, I'm going to bed. I have to be at work in 5.5 hours and this argument is pointless. I am just banging my head against a brick wall. Btw, when I said forza was faking things, I was referring to baked lighting among the list of other things I don't feel like mentioning.
What potential is there, though? The dude in the OP says 'they'll both be fine', which apparently has to be spun as 'PS4 will be fine but they're lying about Xbone for PR reasons', seemingly for no real reason but for another round of shitting on Xbone over things that virtually nobody outside of viral marketers and Xbone weirdos denies. It's a shame that 'both consoles are powerful enough for cool lighting' turned into 'Xbone is not powerful enough for cool lighting for unspecific reasons and borderline wishful thinking'. Why perpetuate it?
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Im not a developer...I was just going off what I have read, here and elsewhere. Dont shoot me...
Because it said versus in the title? Why else would he show up. Besides he wasn't even talking about the comparable power of PS4 and Xbone. He was comparing the systems ram availability to previous gen. And everyone saying "PR reasons" certainly makes a case since this guy peddles in middleware. Why would he ever mention anything specific about relative power aside from the little snipit at the end for PS4?
And to the people saying "Well the power difference hasn't shown yet in the early games Sony has showed!!!" Well, no shit. Developers were operating on the assumption that the system had 4GB right up until Feb.
Well, now he fixed your misconception for you.
That Dave guy is product manager at AMD for GPUs. Just saying.
wonderdung
Member
Yeah, thank god for that!
Oh wait...
Eh, those are pretty good. I guess you're referring to the legs being "muddy", but that's just down to the UV unwrap. If people start using PTex or something then this would be solved. Nvidia was pushing it at GDC but I haven't heard many people sold on it yet.
Actually ptex might be the most "next gen" feature out there in the pool, but I am not sure anyone is actually going to use it.
Here: https://developer.nvidia.com/sites/default/files/akamai/gamedev/docs/Borderless Ptex.pdf
The take-home message here is 'both are sufficient' as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure there'll be plenty of things in two years time that you can look at on PS4 and say 'so that's where my 7GB GDDR5 RAM is going', if you're so inclined, I don't see why it's necessary to assume that the guy is lying.
DeadlyVirus
Member
Wth? It's the other way around. It's been well reported that Xbone's development tools were 6 months behind
Assume who is lying? The Dave feller at B3D or Sage?
If you're talking about Dave I never said he was lying. It's in his best interest to talk up both consoles since, I dunno, he works for AMD? Heh.
As for Sage..if you were familiar with his posts you would know why I brought it up in the first place. Dude is #1 A+ MS defense force member. Pretty sure he even has a letterjacket to go along with it.
Tools =/= dev time. Sony devs learned about the 8gb of ram in February along with everyone else.
Also, notice the steady stream of PS3 exclusives this year compared to MS?
Games were 6 months behind - but yes - it seems that the dev tools from MS are/were lacking behind Sony's.