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[ekim]

No, it does not need more RAM.

From my limited knowledge I would say yes, if you want to apply AA to the framebuffer which is stored in the RAM.

 

[Thrakier]

Yeah but next gen wont run with 8xMSAA we may be lucky with 2xMSAA.

We may be lucky if it's 1080p and a stable 30FPS.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

Yea, keep telling yourself that. As far as I'm concerned, the power gap is huge. It's big on the spec sheet and it's even bigger when comparing the design.

You will be disappointed. Very, very disappointed.

 

[dragonelite]

Probably only on the PS4 - I think that multiplats will use the ESRAM on the X1 to apply AA and afaik the 32 MB will allow 2xAA for free - I'm not sure if this is constrained to the targetted FPS but I would say yes.

You would expect launch games to use 4xMSAA but i haven't heard anything from digital foundry about it. My guess is 2xMSAA on ps4 and some form of post processing AA on X1.

 

[NBtoaster]

With the ram available I expect 4xAA to be a popular choice. But that's not taking in to account all the new graphical features these games are going to be pushing that Crisis 3 doesn't. See new Unreal demo's.

It's disappointing that there's no evidence of MSAA in PS4 titles yet, even with 176GB/s and 32 ROPS devs are focusing on the wrong things.

 

[TheD]

From my limited knowledge I would say yes, if you want to apply AA to the framebuffer which is stored in the RAM.

AA has nothing to do with it.
You would not need more RAM unless you are storing a lot of past frames for motion blur or the like and even then a frame at 1920x1080 is not huge by itself.

It's disappointing that there's no evidence of MSAA in PS4 titles yet, even with 176GB/s and 32 ROPS devs are focusing on the wrong things.

Do not get your hopes up for lots of MSAA on the PS4 and Xbone, with deferred renderers the cost of doing MSAA jumps up a lot.

 

[mrklaw]

Can't wait for this generation to start, then PCs will finally become obsolete due to that massive amount of GDDR5. No PC can follow that at such a low price point, we'll be gaming in 8k at the end of the generation on the PS4 with all that power. Man it's going to be so awesome watching the salt unfold.

No need to be snarky about it, comments in this thread are pretty reasonable.

PCs will need (IMO) 4GB GPUs to be comfortable, and the standard at the moment is 2GB which I don't think will be enough once the baseline shifts.

That is good news for PC gamers because you can invest in higher performance GPUs (or maybe you already have one) and get faster framerates or higher resolutions, and benefit from more than current gen console polycounts etc.

 

[TheCloser]

You will be disappointed. Very, very disappointed.

Lol, you of all people is talking. Dude, your history of well documented. I have read a lot of your posts and they are quite lol worthy. Finally, trust me when I say I'm more qualified to make an assessment of the technology. I know what I'm talking about.

 

[Sethos]

Finally, trust me when I say I'm more qualified to make an assessment of the technology. I know what I'm talking about.

Oh okay then

 

[ekim]

Lol, you of all people is talking. Dude, your history of well documented. I have read a lot of your posts and they are quite lol worthy. Finally, trust me when I say I'm more qualified to make an assessment of the technology. I know what I'm talking about.

paging bish...

Spoiler

You had your hands on both consoles from a dev perspective?

 

[nib95]

It's disappointing that there's no evidence of MSAA in PS4 titles yet, even with 176GB/s and 32 ROPS devs are focusing on the wrong things.

My guess is a lot of Sony first party devs are having to spend a lot of time adapting their engines for the new hardware, where traditionally the engines (re worked from the PS3 engines and tools) were more cpu geared what with Cell and it's Spe's. It's the opposite with the PS4. GPU emphasis over cpu. Probably going to lead to some more noticeable improvements after the first year or two.

 

[hodgy100]

With the ram available I expect 4xAA to be a popular choice. But that's not taking in to account all the new graphical features these games are going to be pushing that Crisis 3 doesn't. See new Unreal demo's.

Expect most games to use strait up FXAA with some using 2xAA + FXAA

 

[TheCloser]

Oh okay then

Hey feel free to say what you want but this is what I study everyday and it's what pays my bills.

 

[Basileus777]

He makes an obvious point, the disparity isn't going to be as evident early on given how great of an increase this is from last generation. We'll have to wait to see devs get more of these systems.

 

[Serandur]

small or not. i will buy my games on the system that will look/play better.

i will not settle down for inferior port. even if it was just a little. period.

He doesn't say the difference is small, just that the difference between the platforms isn't that big compared to the overall increase in processing power with this generation versus the last.

In RAM alone, the PS4 has a huge advantage - in addition, the PS4 also has a significantly more powerful GPU (50% or more).



Absolutely this - it is why I bought most of my multi-platform games on 360 this generation, and why PS4 will most likely be the platform of choice next generation.

What... if you truly believe that, you wouldn't play multiplatform games on a console in the first place. Logic?

 

[ekim]

AA has nothing to do with it.
You would not need more RAM unless you are storing a lot of past frames for motion blur or the like and even then a frame at 1920x1080 is not huge by itself.

Maybe not more but you would have to write more often when you're targetting 60FPS. That's why I asked, if you can write/read to/from the RAM in parallel on the PS4 or if you have to switch context every time and thus lose cycles.

 

[dragonelite]

Its almost like people expect pc devs or the pc team to drop all their streaming tech.
Just because the next gen consoles have minimum 5gb and maximum 7gb to work with doesn't mean that 4gb as dedicated vram isn't enough to hold an level or huge portion of the world.
While forgetting next gen console are cpu/gpu constrained.

 

[TheCloser]

paging bish...

Spoiler

You had your hands on both consoles from a dev perspective?

Nope read, I said I'm more qualified to assess the capabilities of the technology than the sage guy.

 

[TheD]

Maybe not more but you would have to write more often when you're targetting 60FPS. That's why I asked, if you can write/read to/from the RAM in parallel on the PS4 or if you have to switch context every time and thus lose cycles.

Umm, we are talking about RAM usage, not bandwidth.

 

[Limit]

PS1 = 3.5 MB IIRC
PS2 = 40 MB, 11.43x, 16x for main RAM only
PS3 = 512 MB, 12.8x
PS4 = 8192 MB, 16x

Judging by this in 7 - 8 years we will have gaming machines with 80 GB (10x) to 128 GB (16x) of RAM. Sounds crazy.

 

[cyberheater]

Lol, you of all people is talking. Dude, your history of well documented. I have read a lot of your posts and they are quite lol worthy. Finally, trust me when I say I'm more qualified to make an assessment of the technology. I know what I'm talking about.

You need to back that up.

 

[onQ123]

So is the PS3 memory

 

[Serandur]

Judging by this in 7 - 8 years we will have gaming machines with 80 GB (10x) to 128 GB (16x) of RAM. Sounds crazy.

As many people have always said regarding the exponential increase in RAM availability forever, I still have trouble imagining what we could possibly ever use all that RAM for, but historical trends indicate we will use it... somehow. Could easily dump entire modern games into that amount of RAM...

 

[cyberheater]

Hey feel free to say what you want but this is what I study everyday and it's what pays my bills.

If you're not a dev or know a dev working on actual hardware then it's all just bull.

 

[Alebelly]

So 7gb for the ps4 confirmed then?

The GPU will also be able to run arbitrary code, allowing developers to run hundreds or thousands of parallelized tasks with full access to the system's 8GB of unified memory

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/...4s-hardware-power-controller-features-at-gdc/

 

[dragonelite]

This makes no sense to me.
Artists & coders spend a HUGE amount of time squeezing their assets into available VRAM. Dropping the resolution and detail in textures until the fuckers finally fit and both parties can settle on a compromise.

Now they don't have to do that, the textures can be used raw, anytime you go up to a noticeboard in a game you should be able to read every note. They can use the raw assets now without having to spend time and money reducing them to fit inside 256/512mb or less.
Seems like a huge time & money saver to me. Geometry isn't a problem either, zbrush & tesselation saves time there, and our poly count is already high, this isn't like the SD-HD jump where a whole new level of modeling had to be learned.

You are still bandwidth and performance constrained its not like ram is everything.
You still need to process all the data.

So is the PS3 memory

What has this to do with ps4 and x1 memory?

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Nope read, I said I'm more qualified to assess the capabilities of the technology than the sage guy.

So... you're not qualified at all if he is your benchmark. Got it.

 

[TheCloser]

You need to back that up.

Back what up. The part where I said I'm more qualified to assess the tech, except the sage guy has access to the consoles which I highly doubt the it would put us on the same footing to assess the technology. Based on the information provided and ones education, one of us will be better able to assess the technology in front of us.

 

[JordanN]

As many people have always said regarding the exponential increase in RAM availability forever, I still have trouble imagining what we could possibly ever use all that RAM for, but historical trends indicate we will use it... somehow.

Monsters University used 20GB of data per frame.

Coincidentally, this is when Pixar moved on to Global Illumination (of course, this is waaaaaay better than the GI used in games).

Maybe some day.

 

[TheCloser]

So... you're not qualified at all if he is your benchmark. Got it.

.

 

[Serandur]

Monsters University used 20GB of data per frame.

Coincidentally, this is when Pixar moved on to Global Illumination (of course, this is waaaaaay better than the GI used in games).

I don't know too much about the subject, but what exactly do Pixar use to render their movies?

 

[onQ123]

What has this to do with ps4 and x1 memory?

it has a lot to do with it because if they can do realistic lighting on the PS3 of course they can do it on the new consoles.

 

[1st Course]

That's when running current gen ports lol. Crisis 3 running 8xMSAA on Ultra uses up to 3gb vram even at just 1080p.

VRAM doesn't work like this, just becuase the MSI afterburner is reporting 3GB VRAM usage doesn't mean that the game is effectively using all of that. A 3GB 780 for example is not bottlenecked by VRAM even at 1600p with 8xMSAA

This is what a VRAM bottleneck looks like:

VRAM is really a very complicated thing .

 

[cyberheater]

Back what up. The part where I said I'm more qualified to assess the tech, except the sage guy has access to the consoles which I highly doubt the it would put us on the same footing to assess the technology. Based on the information provided and ones education, one of us will be better able to assess the technology in front of us.

No. You're just blowing it out of your arse.

I don't care about your educational background. I've a background in Electronics and Electrical Engineering. I can only guess at the differences between Xbox One and PS4. You're doing the same.

Unless you know someone who is working on actual hardware. It's all just guess work.

 

[cripterion]

Lol, you of all people is talking. Dude, your history of well documented. I have read a lot of your posts and they are quite lol worthy. Finally, trust me when I say I'm more qualified to make an assessment of the technology. I know what I'm talking about.

Well it's a bit strange that this huge difference hasn't translated to their games, from what they've shown so far.

We know one system is more powerful, saying the difference is huge is a bit of an hyperbole considering what we've seen. Kinda reminds me of how people were saying there would be a big difference in games because of the bluray drive last gen.

 

[TheCloser]

If you're not a dev or know a dev working on actual hardware then it's all just bull.

Call bull all you want. I'm not a developer who has access to console software but I do develop software.

 

[JordanN]

I don't know too much about the subject, but what exactly do Pixar use to render their movies?

As in software? Probably Renderman.
Hardware? A renderfarm housing thousands of CPUs.

 

[Serandur]

As in software? Probably Renderman.
Hardware? Several renderfarms housing thousands of CPUs.

Ah, cool. Thanks.

 

[MrCunningham]

512mb

The X1000 series from ATi and the GeForce 7XXX series were released in 2005, and those cards were generally sporting anywhere from 256GB or 512GB (for higher end models) of GDDR4. Average DDR was something like 512 to 1GB.

I remember having a Windows XP system from that era with a single core AMD Athlon XP 2400 2.4GHz , 1GB of DDR and a GeForce 6600 with 256GB of Video RAM.

 

[cyberheater]

This is what a VRAM bottleneck looks like:
VRAM is really a very complicated thing .

Relative to next gen consoles. This is a better graph.

 

[TheCloser]

No. You're just blowing it out of your arse.

I don't care about your educational background. I've a background in Electronics and Electrical Engineering. I can only guess at the differences between Xbox One and PS4. You're doing the same.

Unless you know someone who is working on actual hardware. It's all just guess work.

Good for you. It's not guess work. We have been provided with several documents pertaining to both consoles and using the information we have available, then an evaluation can be made. Seeing that I have a background in software engineering and computer graphics(almost graduated) then I can make an assessment and come to a conclusion that my peers will agree with. Like I said, it's a big difference. There is a difference in raw power and a fundamental difference in the design principle. This in turn affects how you develop for both machines.

 

[netBuff]

What... if you truly believe that, you wouldn't play multiplatform games on a console in the first place. Logic?

I like the console experience of not worrying about specs and how they relate to a single game - but between different consoles, I still want to play the superior version: It's why the PS4 is more exciting to me.

 

[cyberheater]

Call bull all you want. I'm not a developer who has access to console software but I do develop software.

Then I can't see how you can state so categorically that there is going to be a huge performance difference.

I do believe we are missing several pieces of this puzzle because so far, some of the Xbox One's launch games look better then what's on PS4. If the PS4 was really that much more powerful and easy to develop for as we have been lead to believe on GAF then that simply should not be the case.

 

[Chao]

Watch them complaining later.

"Our game sucks because that amount of power is not enough, if only we had more!"

 

[netBuff]

Then I can't see how you can state so categorically that there is going to be a huge performance difference.

I do believe we are missing several pieces of this puzzle because so far, some of the Xbox One's launch games look better then what's on PS4. If the PS4 was really that much more powerful and easy to develop for as we have been lead to believe on GAF then that simply should not be the case.

We really haven't seen enough footage (let alone direct video) to make the call you're making at this point in time. There are many other potential factors at play (maturity of the specific game first and foremost), but from all we know the PS4 is, in fact, significantly more powerful as a hardware platform.

 

[TheCloser]

Then I can't see how you can state so categorically that there is going to be a huge performance difference.

I do believe we are missing several pieces of this puzzle because so far, some of the Xbox One's launch games look better then what's on PS4. If the PS4 was really that much more powerful and easy to develop for as we have been lead to believe on GAF then that simply should not be the case.

Sorry but nope. Visuals are subjective. In my opinion, I haven't seen a better looking game on the Xbox one. Please do not mention forza as that game is faking a lot of effects. Finally, we are comparing different unfinished games instead of finished multiplatform games so yea.

 

[ekim]

Good for you. It's not guess work. We have been provided with several documents pertaining to both consoles and using the information we have available, then an evaluation can be made. Seeing that I have a background in software engineering and computer graphics(almost graduated) then I can make an assessment and come to a conclusion that my peers will agree with. Like I said, it's a big difference. There is a difference in raw power and a fundamental difference in the design principle. This in turn affects how you develop for both machines.

In the end it comes down if devs are able to tackle all that power and use the system in an efficiant way, which is basically the work of Sony and MS to provide proper and efficiant APIs/Drivers/Compilers.

 

[cyberheater]

Watch them complaining later.

"Our game sucks because that amount of power is not enough, if only we had more!"

Well I would imagine that MS are working very hard to reduce the footprint of the OS as quickly as possible.
I still don't believe that they absolutely require to consume 3 gigs of resident memory while the game is running. It's ludicrous.

 

[Serandur]

Out of curiosity, what difference in CPU performance might be caused by latency differences between GDDR5 and DDR3? Furthermore, though I've seen plenty of talk regarding both consoles' GPUs, what of their CPUs? How will they fare? Jaguar cores aren't exactly performance components.

I like the console experience of not worrying about specs and how they relate to a single game - but between different consoles, I still want to play the superior version: It's why the PS4 is more exciting to me.

fair enough

 

[HyperionX]

Judging by this in 7 - 8 years we will have gaming machines with 80 GB (10x) to 128 GB (16x) of RAM. Sounds crazy.

PS1 Disk: 650MB
PS2 Disk: 8.5 GB
PS3 Disk: 50 GB
PS4 Disk: 50 GB

These trends can end suddenly. Wouldn't surprise me if PS5 only shows up with like 16-24 GB of RAM.