Wut? The game had an entire textbook of cliches and issues worth criticizing.
The way it included diversity and portrayals of the follies of blind tradition and patriarchy for it's own sake are not among them.
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"But It's Not Historically Accurate!"
- Thread starter jmood88
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Wut? The game had an entire textbook of cliches and issues worth criticizing.
The way it included diversity and portrayals of the follies of blind tradition and patriarchy for it's own sake are not among them.
ArkkAngel007
Member
All it started out as was indicating The Order does have diversity. Plain and simple. People should have taken the new information and moved on.
The real FUD started when people, such as OP, tried to nullify that information and further say, which you are doing now, that people were trying to shut down the article's entire argument. It became more about pissing on the people who brought that information into the thread than anything in that article. It became more about shaming people than anything else to prop up their argument over some minor correction that for some reason is being treated as some diabolical challenge.
I don't think anyone was purposefully trying to focus on The Order here in that fashion. Stop attacking people in the thread and actually talk about the article itself if that's what you want. You seem to be just doing the same tactic you say you find so disgusting.
What ruins the suspense of disbelief more for you of the game taking place in that time period?
Racial diversity
Or
Werewolves and steampunk guns/science
Note just using Order as an example since it is the topic, not that it actually suffers it.
And neither of those posts were wrong. People completely side-stepped the point to talk about the second half of The Order, which had nothing to do with what I was talking about.
Give War A Chance
Member
Save yourself. Or make a huge judgment about developers' intentions with no real proof, and no knowledge of what you're making a point about.
Either one is accepted.
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
My criticisms were well founded and the people they apply to know exactly who they are. A group which you apparently feel included in, based on YOUR very EMPHATIC post.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
As a person of color who actually wouldn't mind good minority representation, (one of the main reasons I love AC.) I cannot stand when people pick and choose games that don't support their argument but instead make the argument a target for the opposing side as it makes us look uninformed. The writer of this article in particular states that the world of Bioshock and the Witcher have real world counterparts. If you would consider Poland to be the Witcher's real world counterpart then you would be admitting to knowing nothing about Poland considering that this is what amounts to their racial diversity.
Polish 96.7%, German 0.4%, Belorussian 0.1% Ukrainian 0.1%, other 2.7% (2002)
Read more: Ethnicity and Race by Countries http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0855617.html#ixzz3TLuwGvFT
It's most certainly not a diverse place. And the other obvious point, um, news flash, Rapture and Columbia don't have real world counterparts, and both are set in the past and address racism as an issue.
I think this what should also be taken into account is that the Order is similar to Ryse in the sense that it has very few character faces. In Ryse, there are very few character models, the bright side of this is that every one of those characters is just as detailed as the main cast. The same applies to the order as well.
Cmon he should give war a chance.
The only thing I insisted on was discussing what I wanted to discuss, not have a guy order me to talk about something. At no point did I limit this to a discussion of western developers, and nor would I since Asian developers have the exact same problem with diversity. For the third time, if you have a problem with specific games, then talk about them. I won't be making any arguments for you.
It depends if that diversity is appropriate, because it sounds like you want it shoehorned in just to make a point. Are you suggesting that just because it has fantasy elements in a historical fantasy setting, that it needs to change the realities of the social class and racism that was prominent? It portrays two Indian characters well, as equals or perhaps even on greater footing than the main character at first, because they are trying to
save the world from the corruption within The Order
I love that Dragon Age has a completely diverse fantasy universe- that's awesome. But that doesn't mean all games suddenly have to have it just for it's own sake.
ArkkAngel007
Member
I find it odd they bring up Bioshock. We only see...what, 3 somewhat-human NPCs or so in the first game? I don't remember the issues with race and gender in that game, not like in Infinite where it's all front and center due to Comstock's ideals following his 'rebirth'.
It's been awhile, so maybe someone can point out the actual issues in the game. In context with the setting of Rapture, not just the time period.
It's been awhile, so maybe someone can point out the actual issues in the game. In context with the setting of Rapture, not just the time period.
Ofcourse you would find nothing wrong with it... that's why you said it. People were simply correcting a mis-understanding about the Order, no one was side-stepping until you started accusing people of being "defending the game at all cost" and derailed the thread. Then blame the same people for derailing the thread with "which had nothing to do with what I was talking about."? seriously?.... stop playing the victim here. We can all clearly see what you wrote.
Why is The Witcher given a free pass, just out of interest?
Yeah, a black guy in 15th century Bohemia would really stand out, to the point where developers would have to rewrite everything, from plots over dialogues all the way down to AI behavior. I think that could actually be quite interesting, but it's probably too expensive to implement as an option.
so, you will ignore a valid argument.. just because you feel entitled to your opinion. ok.
Why is wanting the inclusion of more ethnicities always described as being "shoehorned in"? What does that even mean? Why are white characters able to be present in every setting with no justification but non-white characters have to given a reason to exist or they are "shoehorned" or "forced"?
User 73706
Banned
I'm more than a little salty because pre-release Order fans completely flipped one of my gaming-side Black History Month threads on its head and derailed it into an argument culminating in "I honestly think werewolves would do less to change Victorian England than equal rights."
Let me dig it up.
Bonus points for him suggesting that people of color would be offended if they weren't being oppressed in a work of fiction.
I was assuming that Infinite was what they meant, because the other game is about ideology, specifically utopia, and power/class warfare and extremism.
Also Infinite takes on a whole new understanding for the themes of racism and bigotry when you realize that Booker DeWitt is
part Native American
Forceatowulf
G***n S**n*bi
I love how the order is "totes diverse!", because look, out of the 50 Or so characters in the game TWO of them are dark skinned. Oh wow. Yeah, the order bleeds with diverse characters man.
So basically, as long as 2% of your entire cast are dark skinned (even when in areas that should clearly have far more than that) everything is all good and "diverse" and people need to shut the fuck up and be happy they got anything.
Hell of a fucking standard we hold here. Hell of a fucking standard.
So basically, as long as 2% of your entire cast are dark skinned (even when in areas that should clearly have far more than that) everything is all good and "diverse" and people need to shut the fuck up and be happy they got anything.
Hell of a fucking standard we hold here. Hell of a fucking standard.
Wildarmsjecht
Member
You certainly didn't need to contest the points people were making in regard to the Order. It was a bad example, you should have followed with an appropriate example.
People were not just merely correcting a misunderstanding, they didn't read what was posted but saw "The Order" and "diversity" and immediately became defensive. If you can clearly see what I wrote, then go back and let me know how any of the posts focusing on The Order had anything to do with what was actually written.
She talks about the real Poland being racially diverse while that's apparently really not the case.
Well, 2/50 is probably 4 times the amount one would expect based on the historical London of the time, as far as I can work out
Jackben
bitch I'm taking calls.
I think it's one thing for people to make games featuring whoever they want. It's still problematic because huge parts of the audience for any game are consistently not being represented, or are represented in cartoonish caricature. But that is a broader argument than what this thread is about. Specifically, when historical accuracy or "pain-staking recreation" is described as a selling point, I don't think it is odd or untoward to question why all the main characters are white.
I am not saying the order suffers from it. I was just pointing out why the poster feels we should assume Order follows that specific point of history when it is very fiction like in other aspects. I haven't played Order so I don't know if Race is an aspect of the story.
But The Witcher is pure fantasy in a way the Victorian London isn't. Surely in the pure fantasy game they would have more leeway to ignore existing demographics in favour of more diversity since that is what people want other games to do.
I am a minority as well living in the US and would love a better representation in games, in movies and etc. I totally agree with your argument and feel that this a good topic of conversation, if the thread can get back on topic with proper arguments
User 73706
Banned
But then why are they all modernly caucasian-looking?
I sure am glad Ready At Dawn kept things historically sound by keeping the werewolves and tesla coilguns in the Second Boer War!
And what are you basing that on, exactly? Have you done much research on the era?
ArkkAngel007
Member
Yet the diversity is there in Infinite, so I don't see where the issue is. Not saying it couldn't have been handled better, given the first demo that included Booker and Elizabeth seemed to indicate a deeper exploration into all those issues. But it's not in the way the article describes, making me feel it's targeting the original Bioshock.
Edit: And yeah, Booker/Comstock's heritage is also a factor for Infinite.
Because you're trying to force it into the setting of games where it doesn't fit, like The Order, just for it's own sake, and implying that if all games don't have it, then they're somehow pandering to white people only.
As I said before, alternate history wouldn't mean that everything suddenly becomes all enlightened. If anything, knowing that human beings are cruel to each other, advances in technology and science would lead to increased subjugation of minorities. You'd wind up with Columbia, basically.
I'm all about diversity if it makes sense (i.e modern settings should have it), but Assassins Creed has done it well historically too, or if you've built a whole new world. The Order has it also, it's just being ignored because it doesn't suit your tastes as you are once again reading only what you want to read.
Nice job ignoring the rest of my post by the way, and the others where I highlight the importance of portraying racial diversity well.
I guess that's true then, it does seem to be focused in the first. That definitely wasn't a theme though, for all intents and purposes, anyone with money/buying into Ryan's ideology was welcome in Rapture. At least hypothetically.
And I was disappointed in how Infinite ultimately handled those issues- the original demo seemed like it was going to make huge statements on bigotry and racism, but the message came across muddled in the end product. The leader of the revolution is also painted as a straight up villain too, not as bad as Comstock, but questionable in character to say the least.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It's not given a free pass. It's an acknowledgement of the unique setting of the game. She claims real-life modern Poland is diverse...which it isn't at all.
Crossing Eden has already posted on this pretty well.
Well actually, ideally if we're going for believable settings we'd stop shoehorning in white characters as well and stop putting them in settings without reasonable justification. Instead we'd have protagonists and characters with racial diversity.
Wouldn't that be more recently though? Poland was once a very different place prior to World War II with multiple languages and cultures. They once had a very, very high Jewish population.
Too many people in this thread seem to assume it's all about The Order: 1886, and are completely missing the overall point of the article. I'm not talking about the OP, but the article actually linked in the OP. The Order isn't even the main game the article is about. It's just an example tossed in towards the end.
On The Order though, the main point the article made concerned how the Arthurian Order itself -- the people who show up in all the marketing material, are presented in this game. According to the article there were at least four non-white Arthurian knights in the legend. As far as I know none of them appear in the game. The article is probably assuming Ready At Dawn didn't research THAT deeply into the Arthurian tales or simply decided to focus on the main white guys (and lady) in the game and promotional material.
Anyway, the main part of the article actually concerned the research the author did on the time period in which Hamlet -- a classic Shakespearean tale, takes place, and how easy it was to discover the possibility of people of color appearing in that setting. As main characters no less. They then apply similar research to the Arthurian stories which Ready At Dawn may or may not have overlooked.
On The Order though, the main point the article made concerned how the Arthurian Order itself -- the people who show up in all the marketing material, are presented in this game. According to the article there were at least four non-white Arthurian knights in the legend. As far as I know none of them appear in the game. The article is probably assuming Ready At Dawn didn't research THAT deeply into the Arthurian tales or simply decided to focus on the main white guys (and lady) in the game and promotional material.
Anyway, the main part of the article actually concerned the research the author did on the time period in which Hamlet -- a classic Shakespearean tale, takes place, and how easy it was to discover the possibility of people of color appearing in that setting. As main characters no less. They then apply similar research to the Arthurian stories which Ready At Dawn may or may not have overlooked.
I'm a little conflicted. I definitely think, as you say, that they were trying to illustrate something about entitlement and negligence, but that it was a bit further complicated by making the Order uniformly white while there is more diversity amongst the rebels. While some of the Othering does feel intentional, the fact that one group is diverse and the other is not creates a feeling that the game also wants to have a discussion about race without quite having one. (Either that or it was the sort of carelessness that results in "choices" that aren't really made so much as they somehow seem to just happen as the presumed default.)
It's also always a bit uncomfortable to tell the story of the disenfranchised through the eyes of the entitled (wealthy) white guy who is necessary for their liberation.
On the one hand, I do appreciate what it feels like they were trying to do but at the same time I'm not sure they pulled it off with the deftness that sort of feels necessary to excuse having four white people on your poster (yet again). It's always the risk when you do genre storytelling that the messages might get slightly muddied by the metaphor.
Not to suggest it's a complete failure either. I actually enjoyed the game and like to think that they could improve considerably with a sequel. And I do see why people might not feel that The Order is the best example -- it's certainly not the most grievous offender -- but that doesn't mean it's beyond all reproach or unworthy of discussion.
No, but I agree. The game seems to have made certain choices because it has aspirations of greater meaning than it is capable of actually pulling off, and this makes the excuse that the racial imbalance is intentional feel a bit hollow. Sure, they might have meant it as part of some message, but it was lost somewhere -- along with some of the rising action.
Focusing mostly on The Order here, im just not buying it...
Not trying to pass myself off as an expert on the history of London by any stretch, but the black population of London in the 1800's would have been rather small (probably numbering in the tens of thousands out of the millions of Londoners) to say the least, and also would have been mostly confined to the very poor areas around the docks and shipping business.
The idea that there wouldn't be black (or even minority) members of an organization that is a "modern" descendant of King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table is also not ridiculous. Knights have always been nobility, and frankly in the 1800's there were few blacks that would have met the criteria for knighthood in this type of organization.
a Knight at that time that WAS black would more than likely be of Moorish ancestry, and be some sort of transplant from Northern Africa or somewhere along those lines...but would certainly be the exception, rather than the rule.
im all for diversity in game characters, but i also believe that FORCING the issue, just for the sake of diversity does nothing more than highlight the issue, rather than do anything to fix the problem.
its a sad, but simple fact that if such an organization like the Knights of the Round Table existed in 1886 that the vast majority of the members would be from nobel, aristocratic white families. And if you were to pick any random "squad" or "team" of knights like the ones in The Order, the overwhelming odds are that said "squad" would be made up of all white men.
Its not a good thing, but is the honest truth...
Not trying to pass myself off as an expert on the history of London by any stretch, but the black population of London in the 1800's would have been rather small (probably numbering in the tens of thousands out of the millions of Londoners) to say the least, and also would have been mostly confined to the very poor areas around the docks and shipping business.
The idea that there wouldn't be black (or even minority) members of an organization that is a "modern" descendant of King Arthur's Knights of the Round Table is also not ridiculous. Knights have always been nobility, and frankly in the 1800's there were few blacks that would have met the criteria for knighthood in this type of organization.
a Knight at that time that WAS black would more than likely be of Moorish ancestry, and be some sort of transplant from Northern Africa or somewhere along those lines...but would certainly be the exception, rather than the rule.
im all for diversity in game characters, but i also believe that FORCING the issue, just for the sake of diversity does nothing more than highlight the issue, rather than do anything to fix the problem.
its a sad, but simple fact that if such an organization like the Knights of the Round Table existed in 1886 that the vast majority of the members would be from nobel, aristocratic white families. And if you were to pick any random "squad" or "team" of knights like the ones in The Order, the overwhelming odds are that said "squad" would be made up of all white men.
Its not a good thing, but is the honest truth...
You can make that argument, this is however what she argued:
She says it would be more historically accurate to have minorities
The question is if that's actually true for Poland
Spring-Loaded
Member
1400s-1500s Bohemia, and the justification for not allowing players to be anything other than white was there would be virtually no chance of someone who wasn't white being in the type of location/circumstance they've created in their game. They could've included that option and put in the work needed to properly acknowledge the player character's skin color/heritage (not saying that would be a small/large amount of work, or that skin color would be a considerable matter in 15th century Bohemia in real life). If they didn't pu tin that work, fine, but it would be doable without compromising genuine historical accuracy anymore than it would to allow players to make massive towers of wash buckets, or fight solely using books, and etc.
The problem being the developers completely dismiss the possibility of including such customization without necessarily needing to to achieve what they're going for with their game.
I'll have to check that out personally. Unfortunate and disconcerting if true.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
Alright I didn't knew about that, I understand why you feel that way now. As a black man myself it's flat out racist and really upsetting to see that someone can think that fucking fictional creatures are closer to reality then actual existing people.
Wiktor
Member
Because it's a game based on folklore of underrepresented culture/ethnicity that also had to suffer discrimination.
Bassicaly it would be like complaining a fantasy story set in magical land built on African folklore doesn't have lot of white folk and asians in it.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
FTFY. Yea the Order has a super huge cast right?
Galahad
Ingraine
Perceval
Lafayette
Chancellor
Lucan
Lakshmi
Supporting
Tesla
Lakshmi's daughter
Antagonist
Hastings
I feel that the blame for that should be put on the people who make those posts than the actual developers of the game who aren't accountable for every post that their fans make on a forum.
Again, the point is that, for one, this isn't true. Victorian London wasn't The Bronx but it also wasn't this lily-white world that people pretend it is because they don't know better. Secondly, in a world where werewolves exist, why is it a stretch to imagine that, even if that real world was somehow 100% white, that things would be different in the fictional world they've created? Why is it fine to add fictional monsters but changing the way races and ethnicities treat each other is verboten?
Whatever you added at the end doesn't change the fact that you're using the same tired refrain that gets repeated around here over and over and over again. There is no reason that diversity has to "make sense" in a world featuring monsters that have never existed and weapons that are far more advanced than what existed in the real world.
NO, people were responding to a specific argument. No one was jumping to conclusion just because they saw the "The Order" other than you. IF you or some people need a refresher....
It begun with this statement about The Order:
And then someone responded with this statement, which wasn't accurate. NO one was being defensive, just correcting:
Responses:
and etc.
**** People were clarifying that there was a minority***
YOU and systembug, argued:
_________
So people responded that it's not due to racisim but not to reveal spoilers:
_____
IN WHICH YOU RESPONDED:
You started criticizing people after those statements, when they were just correcting you and systembug.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
The point there is that The Witcher is organized around significantly sized cities. And when you gather a large number of people together in cities, seeing diversity in culture and race is pretty much a given, since cities tend to act as a magnet for all sorts of non-homogenous people to congregate.
The real world equivalency is "cities", not "Poland". Poland's demographics are meaningless because the game isn't set in Poland.
To talk about demographics in The Witcher you have to read into the books and what those are based on. Sapkowski's novels are a fusion of Slavic folklore, Sapkowski's own imagination, and bits of Eastern European medieval history. You'd probably have to look at the Middle Ages demographics of places like Poland, Russia, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, and so-on.
The way Columbia addresses racism wasn't very imaginative if you ask me, but it is there front-and-center. In Rapture it mostly came up in Bioshock 2 where I personally felt there was a lot of untapped potential.
But you also have to look at how the game says the original Order survived to the 19th century. They probably could have included an actual medieval Moor who survived to the 19th century through the same means. Not to mention the Saracen knights mentioned in the article. That by itself could have made for some interesting narrative points.
Why must diversity "make sense" when so little in video games requires this? Even putting werewolves aside.
Regenerating health, reloading your gun after only firing one shot (without losing the rest of the clip), and arrows to point you toward your next objective seldom have an in world explanation. We accept these things, even though they are completely illogical, because they make the experience more enjoyable.
Is there a reason that diversity is held to a different standard by so many people, when it would make the experience more enjoyable for others? Is it simply a lack of personal investment?
Regenerating health, reloading your gun after only firing one shot (without losing the rest of the clip), and arrows to point you toward your next objective seldom have an in world explanation. We accept these things, even though they are completely illogical, because they make the experience more enjoyable.
Is there a reason that diversity is held to a different standard by so many people, when it would make the experience more enjoyable for others? Is it simply a lack of personal investment?
See, that's what I wrote. The option to play as a black protagonist would certainly be really interesting, but it would require a lot of work. Would that interesting idea sell enough additional copies to offset the increased budget? I really don't know, but I wouldn't bet on it. And game development isn't a charity, so I see why developers don't go that extra mile.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
It's unfortunate that just because Slavic people are "white" that their history seems to get overlooked.
ArkkAngel007
Member
No, no one assumed that. It was one specific argument brought up about there being diversity in the main cast that suddenly erupted into denials/user-shaming.
And if you read the thread, I brought up the characters, save at least one, are not the same people as the original Knights of the Round Table. They operate under those names as a form of title heritage, passing the mantle down to the next apprentice in line. That doesn't excuse/nullify the subject of diversity within the ranks of The Order itself (didn't really look and see if there are exceptions), but that's why those particular characters are not present.
The article and original OP didn't have anything to do with promo material until the OP brought it up to combat people bringing up that there is diversity in the main cast.
It's all well and good what the main point of the article was, but it's clear the writer did not play the game and just based it off of likely promo material. Just like I find it questionable about Bioshock's inclusion. If it's about not having diversity in the main casts in games at all, then not only just make that the main point than focusing on one game where it isn't the best argument, but also maybe show what games may be doing things right for some inspiration.
Most people have moved on from The Order stuff anyway, as it wasn't going anywhere.