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[SneakyStephan]

That's exactly what it does...

Tell that to all the families of all the children, innocent bystandards and adult victims (often with kids of their own) that die to random gunshots/those weekly mass shootings/some cop who shits his britches because he 's terrified due to everyone and their dog having a gun + a culture that glorifies using them.

All the 'I need to protect my family' bullshit, guess what, in countries with strict gun laws and a culture that doesn't glorify them (e.g here in Belgium) people don't have to live in fear of being shot to begin with.
I don't know anyone who'se been shot, I don't know anyone who knows anyone who'se been shot or had a gun pointed at them.
Much easier to feel your family is safe this way.

 

[CrankyJay]

I don't understand why we are even talking about this. This is a derail of (what you probably see as) my derail. I just don't think editing is a very effective way to have a conversation.

a) You post something
b) I start typing a reply while you edit your post.
c) I see the edit.
d) I reply to the edit instead of editing my own replies. Or are we supposed to have a conversation entirely by subsequent edits?

And, sorry, I wasn't raging. I think 'lol' is a dumb, I said as much. No raging on either side. i don't think we need to continue to talk about this, unless you insist on apologies or want me banned for the words (in which case I'd suggest sending my post to a mod instead).

Let's just drop it.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

I don't know where harriet the spy is from but I would have asked something similar. From my european perspective all these stories are scary as hell. In fact the US sounds like a super dangerous place to live.

I get into a shootout everyday on my way to work. Watch Death wish, that's an accurate portrayal of American life.

 

[harriet the spy]

Your threshold is so low it'd bar any use of firearms as too dangerous in any situation. By your rationale someone would have to be in the middle of a forrest or desert to use a gun in self defense...

No, not really. The house on the other side of the street is just a bit close to me. I can think of plenty of situations where shooting straight would carry a significantly lower risk of collateral damage.

But outrage at the man whose daughter was in mortal danger, that's impactful...over a broken windows.

You know perfectly well this is not about a broken window, but about what could have happened. Let's not act like this stray bullet couldn't have hit someone.

I think you have to look at each incident and really judge it on a case by case basis. Ideological absolutes are dumb.

I already agreed with this, but I can only guess our case-by-case decisions would differ.

 

[nailbombxx]

This is the purpose of gun ownership, having a weapon locked away for self defense to be used in extreme circumstances.

Not to be fired upon random people you suspect are going to invade your house. Not to be fired around in your back yard. Not to be carried around town for no reason.

 

[CrankyJay]

Tell that to all the families of all the children, innocent bystandards and adult victims (often with kids of their own) that die to random gunshots/those weekly mass shootings/some cop who shits his britches because he 's terrified due to everyone and their dog having a gun + a culture that glorifies using them.

You misunderstand...it doesn't justify those things, but it does justify owning a gun in instances like this.

 

[kamorra]

Your perception of a place/people should never be formed via Mass Media. Always biased.

Well, it's not only the mass media. From all the gun threads on GAF I've learned that it is a absolute necessity to own a gun in the US.

I get into a shootout everyday on my way to work. Watch Death wish, that's an accurate portrayal of American life.

Explains why you guys can buy and own assault rifles and flame throwers.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

You can say that, but there's most likely more people in America with guns than those without.

Say what you want about criminals getting guns anyway, but criminals are less likely to be violent with guns and shoot someone if they know there's no risk of them being shot themselves. Most of the time these people who do robberies are desperate for money or heavily addicted to drugs, they've been failed by society and they have no other choice. I think it's a rather sad situation that 2 people dying is seen as the best possible outcome of this situation, I really do.

I understand what you're saying but that doesn't have much to do with the context of what I'm saying. What I'm saying is if you go by nothing but media yes news stories of shootings will make America seem like a war zone. My point is that life here generally speaking isn't like that and I don't think it's fair to assume that just to visit America or live here is courting death. That's all.

I'm not trying to rehash the same stale debate about the US vs Europe on policy. Just saying don't allow your opinion on America to be determined by news stories.

Now to your point: My sympathy for someone addicted, poor or failed by society stops the moment they are a threat to me and my family. After the threat has fled or been stopped I'll turn my sympathy back on. I definitely think we need to have a better support system for those most vulnerable amongst us.

 

[CrankyJay]

Well, it's not only the mass media. From all the gun threads on GAF I've learned that it is a absolute necessity to own a gun in the US.

This isn't true. You'll find me defending gun rights all over GAF, but I don't own a gun, and probably never will. I'm actually terrified of them, and I personally don't think I'm responsible enough to own one. And I say this as someone who had a gun pointed at his face about a half a foot away...

 

[BronsonLee]

Explains why you guys can buy and own assault rifles and flame throwers.

Well...about that...

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Well, it's not only the mass media. From all the gun threads on GAF I've learned that it is a absolute necessity to own a gun in the US.

America is one of the safest places on earth, you don't need to own a gun in this country in order to live here. Gun ownership is a choice that is protected by the constitution, you have the right but it's not a requirement.

Edit- except Chicago, have a gun at all times in Chicago.

 

[McLovin]

father - hey guys ill talk to you but please dont identify me.
news - heres a shot of their house, interview with a neighbor, and a non-modified sample of the fathers voice.

 

[DUFFMCWALIN]

I don't know where harriet the spy is from but I would have asked something similar. From my european perspective all these stories are scary as hell. In fact the US sounds like a super dangerous place to live.

Never form your opinion on what the media tells you.

edit: I can't buy fully automatic weapons or flame throwers in California. But I sure as hell can make a flamethrower. Its not very hard to do.

 

[SneakyStephan]

You misunderstand...it doesn't justify those things, but it does justify owning a gun in instances like this.

And people owning guns is directly responsible for 'those things'

Owning guns for 'self protection' can never be justified.


And even if everyone only used it for self protection and no innocents ever got hurt (which will obviously never happen) , you are still having no respect for the value of a human life or the families that get destroyed when criminals get shot and die.

It's just wrong on so many levels.

 

[Dude Abides]

America is one of the safest places on earth, you don't need to own a gun in this country in order to live here. Gun ownership is a choice that is protected by the constitution, you have the right but it's not a requirement.

Edit- except Chicago, have a gun at all times in Chicago.

Higher murder rate than virtually any other industrialized country.

But certainly safer than South Africa. USA! USA!

 

[Eighty Deuce]

And people owning guns is directly responsible for 'those things'

Owning guns for 'self protection' can never be justified.


And even if everyone only used it for self protection and no innocents ever got hurt (which will obviously never happen) , you are still having no respect for the value of a human life or the families that get destroyed when criminals get shot and die.

It's just wrong on so many levels.

Yea let me tell you I was not justified carrying my 45 while clearing brush on my property. I was wrong for shooting those boar that charged me, I should just be a man and get gored because fuck guns. Or how about the time someone tried to run me off the road and carjack me, I was an asshole for pulling my gun when they tried to break my driver side window.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

And people owning guns is directly responsible for 'those things'

Owning guns for 'self protection' can never be justified.

Dunno, this case pretty much justifies itself.

And even if everyone only used it for self protection and no innocents ever got hurt (which will obviously never happen) , you are still having no respect for the value of a human life or the families that get destroyed when criminals get shot and die.

It's just wrong on so many levels.

I agree, it's wrong to try and break into someone's home and take their child hostage. But the criminal is responsible for the pain their families feel. Not the person defending their family.

 

[DoktorEvil]

This is the kind of Hollywood movie thing gun nuts will masturbate over.

But for every incident like this, there are tons more suicides, kids accidentally shooting themselves or friends, people shooting non threatening victims, etc.

Confirmation bias leads to bad decisions.

Cute.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Cute.

Howso?

 

[jackie jormp-jomp]

And people owning guns is directly responsible for 'those things'

Owning guns for 'self protection' can never be justified.


And even if everyone only used it for self protection and no innocents ever got hurt (which will obviously never happen) , you are still having no respect for the value of a human life or the families that get destroyed when criminals get shot and die.

It's just wrong on so many levels.

oh man oh god oh man oh god oh man oh god

 

[Bodacious]

And people owning guns is directly responsible for 'those things'

Owning guns for 'self protection' can never be justified.


And even if everyone only used it for self protection and no innocents ever got hurt (which will obviously never happen) , you are still having no respect for the value of a human life or the families that get destroyed when criminals get shot and die.

It's just wrong on so many levels.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Howso?

Making more assumptions after an already sensationalized story.

This story was an instance of everything going right, but to think that this'll change the whole gun debate is ridiculous.

 

[harriet the spy]

Cute.

Is this not true? I think the argument for guns is better made from a philosophical standpoint rather than a statistical standpoint.

Well, it's not only the mass media. From all the gun threads on GAF I've learned that it is a absolute necessity to own a gun in the US

For what's it's worth, as someone who spent roughly 1/2 his life in Europe and the second half in the US, and even know I know it's probably statistically less safe in the US, it feels safer here, because the tolerance for petty criminality is lower, and people are generally more civil to one another.

 

[Darkman M]

Your suggestion is a gamble too...

His suggestion is some of the dumbest shit I've heard.

 

[Stinkles]

Cute.

It's borne out by the many statistics the gun lobby works to suppress.

 

[GaimeGuy]

Incredibly stupid of the parents to escalate a hostage situation like that and reckless of them since their neighbors were in the line of fire of stray bullets.

Yet for some reason people are calling this act "responsible gun ownership?"

Also stupid that the police are charging one of the robbers with murder.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Well, it's not only the mass media. From all the gun threads on GAF I've learned that it is a absolute necessity to own a gun in the US.



Explains why you guys can buy and own assault rifles and flame throwers.

Are there Europeans who are actually this ignorant about the US, or is this guy just being cute?

 

[Bodacious]

Incredibly stupid of the parents to escalate a hostage situation like that and reckless of them since their neighbors were in the line of fire of stray bullets.

Yet for some reason people are calling this act "responsible gun ownership?"

Seems to me they de-escalated that situation.

Also stupid that the police are charging one of the robbers with murder.

It's called felony murder. It's a thing. Look it up.


.

 

[methane47]

And if "What they want..." includes your daughter, son, wife, or mother? Why would you give the benefit of the doubt to the types of people who are willing to commit home invasions/robberies?

just because you have a gun doesn't mean you are going to end up saving the day.

For example... Look at the shooting in Vegas 2 days ago.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/armed-walmart-shopper-confronted-las-vegas-shooters-before-dying-police-say/article19082244/
Joseph Wilcox decides to confront the terrorist by pulling his gun on him and managed to get himself fatally shot instead.

"if only someone had a gun to stop the shooting"

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Incredibly stupid of the parents to escalate a hostage situation like that and reckless of them since their neighbors were in the line of fire of stray bullets.

Yet for some reason people are calling this act "responsible gun ownership?"

Also stupid that the police are charging one of the robbers with murder.

I was waiting for you to post, my day is complete. I had a good laugh to go along with my lunch, thank you.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Is this not true? I think the argument for guns is better made from a philosophical standpoint rather than a statistical standpoint.

For what's it's worth, as someone who spent roughly 1/2 his life in Europe and the second half in the US, and even know I know it's probably statistically less safe in the US, it feels safer here, because the tolerance for petty criminality is lower, and people are generally more civil to one another.

There are plenty of citizens who think otherwise.

Additionally, petty crime certainly isn't tolerated in the US as much, but disarming citizens from self-defense will allow much bigger crimes to occur.

I only take issue in the debates with the "collectors". Having an armament that may or may not be functional, but having because "my rights" is unacceptable. These are the same people who are so adamant about protecting their gun rights that they LOVE to open carry in public places.

But when it comes to utility use, a gun is a tool. How you use that tool is up to you.

 

[GaimeGuy]

I was waiting for you to post, my day is complete. I had a good laugh to go along with my lunch, thank you.

So... how are your neighbors being responsible gun owners if they're escalating a hostage situation into a residential shootout and also firing stray bullets into your home? Does collateral damage just not matter? Does the safety of bystanders just not matter?

Why is this worthy of a laugh? Answer me.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Incredibly stupid of the parents to escalate a hostage situation like that and reckless of them since their neighbors were in the line of fire of stray bullets.

Yet for some reason people are calling this act "responsible gun ownership?"

Also stupid that the police are charging one of the robbers with murder.

Alternative? Do nothing and rely on the mercy of someone already vicious enough to put a gun to your child's head?

What would have been the responsible thing to do? And where do you draw the line before you're willing to weigh the risk enough to justify action?

The robber is charged with murder because he started the situation that led to the death of another person. Alternative? Charge the people defending their home and family?

So... how are your neighbors being responsible gun owners if they're escalating a hostage situation into a residential shootout and also firing stray bullets into your home? Does collateral damage just not matter? Does the safety of bystanders just not matter?

Why is this worthy of a laugh? Answer me.

Because the circumstances of the situation basically forced their hand. You're assuming they had a choice once someone has a gun to their kids head. Be a good little victim and hope for the best? Submitting in a situation like that is suicide.

But once again people are more outraged at a broken window than the two monsters responsible for the situation to begin with.

 

[SteveWinwood]

There are plenty of citizens who think otherwise.

But when it comes to utility use, a gun is a tool. How you use that tool is up to you.

There are plenty of citizens who don't believe in evolution as well. Or the earth being flat.

It's a tool designed solely for killing. That's it's only use.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

So... how are your neighbors being responsible gun owners if they're escalating a hostage situation into a residential shootout and also firing stray bullets into your home? Does collateral damage just not matter? Does the safety of bystanders just not matter?

Why is this worthy of a laugh? Answer me.

If they did it to protect a member of their family I would be understanding. If a stray bullet hit someone in my family due to them shooting a criminal I would be upset but not angry. This wasn't someone taking pop shots in their backyard, this was someone protecting their child. There is nothing more noble than that.

 

[kamorra]

Are there Europeans who are actually this ignorant about the US, or is this guy just being cute?

We had about 200 murders with firearms last year. Call me ignorant or cute I don't care. I don't need a weapon here.

 

[DoktorEvil]

There are plenty of citizens who don't believe in evolution as well. Or the earth being flat.

It's a tool designed solely for killing. That's it's only use.

Well I can't speak of behalf of how well or how poorly every American is being educated...

So you'd be for taking away guns for those whose jobs and businesses are built around using them?

 

[marrec]

That lead





U mad GAF?

Why would I be mad at a crazy person?

 

[BronsonLee]

We had about 200 murders with firearms last year. Call me ignorant or cute I don't care. I don't need a weapon here.

What's the population of your area, though? Scale is important here, as it is with all numbers.

 

[Takuan]

This seems like a scenario that usually doesn't have the best outcome. I'm glad the family is safe. No sympathy for the intruders.

 

[Statue of Limitation]

Little less luckier and he might have blown his daughters head off trying to be a movie hero.

'MERICA.

 

[kamorra]

What's the population of your area, though? Scale is important here, as it is with all numbers.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime

Murders with firearms
Germany
269
Ranked 11th.

USA
9,369
Ranked 4th. 35 times more than Germany

Little older but still interesting
http://atlanticreview.org/archives/434-Murder-Rate-in-the-United-States-and-Germany.html

 

[harriet the spy]

There are plenty of citizens who think otherwise.

Additionally, petty crime certainly isn't tolerated in the US as much, but disarming citizens from self-defense will allow much bigger crimes to occur.

I only take issue in the debates with the "collectors". Having an armament that may or may not be functional, but having because "my rights" is unacceptable. These are the same people who are so adamant about protecting their gun rights that they LOVE to open carry in public places.

But when it comes to utility use, a gun is a tool. How you use that tool is up to you.

Think otherwise about safety? Yes, I am sure. It depends on the area, and as I said, it's not objectively true. In this specific case, I was only countering the regular european opinion than living in the US feels like a war zone. This was not a statement pertaining to gun rights/control.

 

[GaimeGuy]

The robber is charged with murder because he started the situation that led to the death of another person. Alternative? Charge the people defending their home and family?

Don't charge anyone at all because it was a justifiable homicide? Seems like you're just stacking charges as a "fuck you" without any sense of justice.

 

[harriet the spy]

But once again people are more outraged at a broken window than the two monsters responsible for the situation to begin with.

Keep propping up that straw man, very intellectually honest.

 

[Shao Kahn on the Lawn]

just because you have a gun doesn't mean you are going to end up saving the day.

For example... Look at the shooting in Vegas 2 days ago.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/armed-walmart-shopper-confronted-las-vegas-shooters-before-dying-police-say/article19082244/
Joseph Wilcox decides to confront the terrorist by pulling his gun on him and managed to get himself fatally shot instead.

"if only someone had a gun to stop the shooting"

Creating a strawman and attributing it to me doesn't strengthen your position in any way, shape, or form. I've never pretended that having a firearm is a guaranteed way to protect oneself from harm. A firearm provides an option that would be absent if it were not in my possession. That said, I would rather die defending myself and my family than leave my fate in the hands of hardened criminals.

Since we're pulling anecdotes out to firm up our cause, here's some light reading for you. These men initially only intended to rob the home. They ended up beating the husband (Nearly to death), raping a mother and one of her daughters, then murdering all 3 women (One by strangulation and the others by setting their rooms on fire while they were tied in their beds).

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Little less luckier and he might have blown his daughters head off trying to be a movie hero.

'MERICA.

I'm sure this is literally true. I'm sure when he saw a gun pointed at his daughters head by deranged maniacs he literally said:

"My time to shine!" and "This is what I've been waiting for, WooHOOO!"

Instead of, you know, being frightened at the notion that his daughter had a gun to her head and reacting in a manner that he believed had the best chance of saving her life given the severity of the situation.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Little less luckier and he might have blown his daughters head off trying to be a movie hero.

'MERICA.

Buy gun+surefire lazer, luck takes a backseat. Toss in a 900 lumens light and blind the shit out of the intruder too.

 

[Mononoke]

Anyone brazen enough to rob a house while people are at home (let alone take a hostage), is not someone you would give the benefit of the doubt to just peacefully taking what they want and leaving without doing harm to you or your family.

I'm actually surprised some have suggested complying with the burglar. Especially when the daughter was already in danger.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Think otherwise about safety? Yes, I am sure. It depends on the area, and as I said, it's not objectively true. In this specific case, I was only countering the regular european opinion than living in the US feels like a war zone. This was not a statement pertaining to gun rights/control.

Well the common opinion that Europeans seem to have of us Americans is that we're ass backwards people who roam the open plans like Raiders in Fallout 3.