Yup
Ive worked 70 hour weeks back to back and its completely unsustainable
Your entire body constantly feels fatigued and you have no energy to do anything
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Amy Hennig worked 10.5 years of 80+ hour weeks at Naughty Dog, says AAA not worth it
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Yup
Ive worked 70 hour weeks back to back and its completely unsustainable
Your entire body constantly feels fatigued and you have no energy to do anything
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
How is this relevant?
As a software developer myself (in medical robotics) I can understand some crunch time, especially a few weeks before the deadline of a large project, no matter how good planning you do in the early stages of a project things will not always work out, but 12 hours days, 7 days a week, for years is just crazy and very bad project management or company culture.
I understand the passion for creating something as a personal drive (a lot of times I loose the sense of time in my home lab working on my personal projects/training/research), but sacrificing time from my family or get proper rest is something I would never do.
How can I design quality software or technology, if I am always overworked, tired, sleepy and my brain not functioning in its top condition?
I don't have experience about American law, but in the EU we regulate the work an employee can do a week by law, with special regulations for minimum daily rest periods and a maximum number of working hours per week.
I cannot believe that America doesn't have something similar in its legal system.
And how much these companies pay for overtime when they have all their employees on constant crunch?
I understand the passion for creating something as a personal drive (a lot of times I loose the sense of time in my home lab working on my personal projects/training/research), but sacrificing time from my family or get proper rest is something I would never do.
How can I design quality software or technology, if I am always overworked, tired, sleepy and my brain not functioning in its top condition?
I don't have experience about American law, but in the EU we regulate the work an employee can do a week by law, with special regulations for minimum daily rest periods and a maximum number of working hours per week.
I cannot believe that America doesn't have something similar in its legal system.
And how much these companies pay for overtime when they have all their employees on constant crunch?
LastCupOfSorrow
Banned
Interesting that someone could go an entire decade without sleep.
People get paid more when they put in the amount of work this lady has.
As to the OP, it really isn't hard to find a new job where crunch time isn't so insane.
chillybright
Banned
Where is the union all these years?
And what is the pay here? I know finance people work insane hours for months for projects like IPO, and they are perfectly happy since the bonus is really good.
And what is the pay here? I know finance people work insane hours for months for projects like IPO, and they are perfectly happy since the bonus is really good.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
It's not Wall Street or a top law firm pay for sure. I've been wondering how much guys like Straley and Druckmann make when they produce hits they have been recently. They should be millionaires.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Yeah, you can find "a job"
I don't see how you're saying they are perfectly happy. How do you know?
Well, yea? Are you expecting them to take on less work, less responsibility and less crunch-time and get more pay with the same skill-set?
These people are making the choice to do this. There are positives and negatives. Unless it's clear that there is some illegal coercion going on I'm not sure what's problematic about the set-up here.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
What do you do
Technically they have arrived at where they are due to choices they have made.
Those choices have been made with imperfect information. So you can find yourself in a situation that you have consented to but weren't aware of the implications.
Also making a choice at age 18 to pursue video games doesn't mean you can't feel trapped in that choice at age 35 with a spouse and a kid you're not seeing.
I agree, personally. I have friends who went the VG route and I see them get shit on on this board for being "lazy"...and yeah...
I mean fuck this industry. It's worthless. I love games, but it's just not worth it. At all. The first time I came here after a pal of mine working in the industry released something confirmed that. No one cares about the people working these hours to make this happen. All they give a fuck about is "10/10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111" graphics and other shit.
Personally, the only way I'd ever work in this industry was if I lost all my money and had no other recourse.
I mean fuck this industry. It's worthless. I love games, but it's just not worth it. At all. The first time I came here after a pal of mine working in the industry released something confirmed that. No one cares about the people working these hours to make this happen. All they give a fuck about is "10/10!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111" graphics and other shit.
Personally, the only way I'd ever work in this industry was if I lost all my money and had no other recourse.
I don't know about you but more hours more money.
Just today the Japanese government released white papers on death from overwork, and it seems like 80 hours of overtime in one month (in other words, 60 hours a week) and up is the line at which karou-shi becomes a problem. Apparently 22.7% of all businesses that employ full time workers have employees that are at this line or higher.
80 hours a week is just simply dangerous.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Not if you're salaried.
So basically people have to be more vocal about it compared to gamer gate?
chillybright
Banned
Ehhh.. Because I know quite a few of them?
They know what they signed up for (crazy crunch when there is a big client) when hunting the jobs and worked very hard to get the offers mainly because the pay is very attractive.
Actually I also know a few people who work in engineering and software development in bay areas. They all know which company has literal "war room" before product launch, and which company has laid back working environment. And those crazy companies are often harder to get in because their pay is very attractive. And if you have earend enough and got tired after a few years of intense work, you can always retire to Microsoft for ok pay but more leisure.
Always-honest
Banned
Ehh, nah, that's just for lawyers.
Edi: well, haha. Not just. But in the creative industries a lot of hours are unpayed. A LOT.
BudokaiMR2
Member
This is why it was so painful seeing the voice actors talk about strikes and such.
Game industry really needs unions. I've been lucky in my experiences so far, especially since I am in Japan which can be really bad on this front.
Game industry really needs unions. I've been lucky in my experiences so far, especially since I am in Japan which can be really bad on this front.
The3DGameArtist
Member
Not only unions but laws that forbid it making it an illegal act for the employer to enforce that kind of overtime or discriminate those who doesn't want to participate in such a thing. Yes a small amount of compensated overtime is fine but reckless and stupid amounts no.
The employee needs to have some kind of legal backup to keep shit like this from happening.
Popsickles
Member
Not that I don't have sympathy for the woman but doctors and nurses do near those kind of hours for far less money and in much harder conditions. She is a writer and I bet half those hours she was sat on her arse drinking coffee. My daughter is training to be a nurse and already she is doing 12hr night shifts, my wife works for tesco as a deputy manager and knocks out 11hrs a day mostly and I have in the past worked for a fast fit firm and have done horrendous hours and shifts before.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
1) Gimme a break.
2) Can people stop posting this? She's not 'just' a writer. She's the creative director for the whole damn game. She led a huge team of people, oversaw all aspects of the title, AND wrote the game.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
I hope people remember this the next time they complain about "looks like last gen graphics!"
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Why did you even bother to include "not that I don't have sympathy" when you go on to explain how you don't have sympathy
Popsickles
Member
I have sympathy for anyone who has to work terrible hours, Its just not everyone pisses and moans about it and come on she may have worked hard but it would have been in comfort and luxury unlike most of the coders and artists under her.
DancingNalwood
Member
For anyone wondering why they get away with this when it's against employment laws, the contracts almost always have clauses that waive your rights for things like this. In the UK they're actually pretty common anyway, never mind in the software industry.
I think that's uncalled for. I thought she worked on the stories. I asked about it and found out that wasn't the case. If you had of read my following posts you would have seen that. Besides that I'm 44 so drop the assumptions about this generation of gamers.
This practice is also common in my industry, but at the difference I get to leave anytime I want and continue at home. It will give me a moment of sanity with my family, take a proper shower and meal, and take from time to time break with relatives. I will probably work at home this week-end but at least they are just few doors away.
Due to the nature of how game development is sensitive, it's highly unlikely they let people continue home with mostly stuff under NDA.
Due to the nature of how game development is sensitive, it's highly unlikely they let people continue home with mostly stuff under NDA.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Man, you're not very good at this are you lol
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
I do about 60 a week on average and that's soul crushing most of the time, morale is shit even though I get to do/have access to some pretty amazing things. It leads straight to burn out so often. Not worth it is fair. I couldn't imagine doing 80 per week for years straight.
I can barely work a 40 hr week, so I can't even begin to imagine working 80 hrs including weekends. That's just insane. These companies need to do a whole lot better when it comes to providing a work life balance for their staff. The brightest minds will just choose other industries with saner working hours which will ultimately deprive us of some really good games being created.
I also think Amy was right on when she said the distribution model for AAA games needs to be more varied. Not every game needs to be 20 hrs with online multiplayer and part of a franchise that's set to release a game once every two years. You can also have just a really good 6 hour game with no other modes and only $40.
I also think Amy was right on when she said the distribution model for AAA games needs to be more varied. Not every game needs to be 20 hrs with online multiplayer and part of a franchise that's set to release a game once every two years. You can also have just a really good 6 hour game with no other modes and only $40.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
She did an interview where she was specifically asked what it was like and how it affected her personally and she answered. That's "pissing and moaning" to you? And what kind of comfort and luxury exactly do you think she's getting over coders and artists? A better coffee machine? A butt pillow?
No. These positions are usually salaried and at will employment.
Generally, when I worked on a game that was delayed, that just meant that we were crunching for longer!
JonathanPower
Member
Right but then the solution is pretty simple, you hire MORE people. Yes, you would need a bigger budget, and publishers are not going to like that, but this is what should be done in such cases.
That's not the simple solution. More people means more communication and scaling with size is not easy.
Just surface level stuff I would say give the same people proper working hours and then more time.
How to sell the publisher to pay more money per game and be less prolific in exchange for proper work/life balance for your employees is the very difficult part.
This is why I had nine women push me out in a month. Legit though communication difficulties and budget scale rapidly when you start up-scaling teams. It's not as easy as 'hire more people'.
Justin Bailey
------ ------
Yeah, I used to work in AAA and can relate. Ended up doing similar sort of hours for months on end. There's very much a culture of 'if you don't pull your weight, you're letting the team down', and 'you're priviliged to be in this role' in the industry.
The thing that alot of people dont realise is that this work life can also be extremely addictive. When I left, I struggled to go back to regular working hours, constantly felt unengaged with my work.
The thing that alot of people dont realise is that this work life can also be extremely addictive. When I left, I struggled to go back to regular working hours, constantly felt unengaged with my work.
Souldestroyer Reborn
Banned
I work 12 hour days as standard in a different industry, sometimes they end up being 16+ hour shifts if the need arises. (I've seen myself doing a 20 hour day on a few occasions, no shit.)
With that being said though, we have 2 squads of folk, so one squad does 3 weeks of constant work, then gets 3 weeks off, while the other squad works. Within each squad, half do 12 hour days and half do 12 hour nights.
A 3/3 rota. With 24/7 production.
You're maximising output, keeping people happy and well rested. Could even give them a pay cut to shore up some costs.
If these companies have such a high calibre of staff where the output wouldn't be effected, I don't see why they couldn't implement a rota system other than "costs".
With that being said though, we have 2 squads of folk, so one squad does 3 weeks of constant work, then gets 3 weeks off, while the other squad works. Within each squad, half do 12 hour days and half do 12 hour nights.
A 3/3 rota. With 24/7 production.
You're maximising output, keeping people happy and well rested. Could even give them a pay cut to shore up some costs.
If these companies have such a high calibre of staff where the output wouldn't be effected, I don't see why they couldn't implement a rota system other than "costs".
Rexatality
Member
While I understand your position, I'd say it's a misguided principle.
TatteredHat
Member
Daily reminder that the average working conditions in the US suck ass.
70-80 hours is fine if you're doing it short term. Many investment bankers and doctors work even longer hours but only enough to make enough money and then they scale down. I work 70 hours a week but I get paid well enough for it to not bother me that much and I'll likely go to a nice cush job that pays way less in a few years time.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I think your example proves my point:
CoD is the perfect example of production efficiency you are saying the games industry doesn't have. Its a multi-studio machine that churns out product to hard marketing deadlines annually, whilst trickle feeding post-launch content until the next iteration launches and takes up the role.
But as a result the end product is rarely creatively inspired or radically different from its predecessor.
You want better widgets, improve production efficiency. You want better art, give the creatives more time and latitude to experiment and fail if they need to.
The reality is that the best "production plan" in the industry is find something that sells, and ride that pony hard until its legs fall off. The hard part of course is finding that prize pony in the first place, or a successor when the old one gets shipped off to the knacker's yard.
So no, its not special snowflake syndrome, its the reality of chasing hits in a highly competitive marketplace where noone really knows for sure what's going to blow-up huge and what's going to tank.
Meanwhile market expectations are forcing increased head-count and costs without immediate monetary return, with their ongoing accrual making the bean-counter's nervous and encouraging them to impose creative changes to mitigate investment risk.
This stuff is HARD. Its hard technically, its hard creatively, and its hard politically.
What's especially bad in software development is that its not like movies or music which are composites of different discrete elements, simply layered and assembled to create a final product. Games are fundamentally mechanical in nature, you alter one thing and its likely to have unforseen consequences in a dozen other areas or situations. Of course the bigger and more complex the project, the worse it gets - and it all takes time to work through.
And look, the bottom-line is that you can get the best people, give them a ton of time and money, organize them with military precision, market-research and focus-test the shit out of their work, and still come up with a mediocrity or worse.
That's modern Hollywood for you.