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[RyanPierre]

Can anyone explain to me why Video Games seem to have this unique problem? Maybe I am just blind to it, but I never seem to see movies getting pulled from Amazon or Walmart because of some licensing issue running out. Or is that stuff just behind the scenes?

It's not completely unique to games. Licensing can be complicated. TV shows have run into problems with licensing music for broadcast, but not other future formats, which can lead to either changing the music or never releasing it on DVD/streaming at all.

I found this explanation for video game licensing terms:

http://www.bmlawgroup.com/?p=642

Term: At one time, the term of a music license for video games would be 5-7 years – the expected life of the game. The license would include a renewal term associated with an additional license fee. Nowadays, the more typical term is in perpetuity (i.e. forever). Video game publishers cannot take a chance that the right to use a song (perhaps integral to the game) will expire and they will be unable to reacquire the rights. If the term is in perpetuity, make sure that the license is non-exclusive (at the very least).

So apparently it's possible to license stuff in perpetuity and for many formats, but I imagine it's more expensive and was much less common in the days before digital storefronts.

In the older days, you'd do a print run of X number of copies and then sell them to retailers. After your initial run, you could either do another run or stop. Doing print runs 5+ years into the life of a game seems like it'd be practically unheard of back then, and there'd be no real need to license music for a longer period if it essentially just upped the cost for you.

These days, every video game available in retailers also seems to make it to digital stores, so game publishers now have to be careful with licensed music if they still want to be able to sell them 5+ years down the line. It looks like many publishers are learning this lesson now, so hopefully it will be less of a problem going forward (if they're willing to pay for licenses in perpetuity). There's been some interesting approaches so far to music licensing issues as game pubs navigate through it all. Take-Two decided to patch some songs they couldn't re-license out of Steam copies of GTA:SA. Activision decided they didn't want the headache, so one year ago they chose to simply remove all Guitar Hero and DJ Hero DLC. Harmonix, on the other hand, tries to renegotiate Rock Band DLC on a quarterly basis as groups of songs reach the 5-year term, keeping as much as they can up for sale.

 

[MattyG]

Guys: https://twitter.com/eurogamer/status/565035772172959744

Yeah, I updated the OP. They must've released a statement right after I posted the thread.

 

[Maximo]

Wow I thought Bioshock2 and especially its DLC The Den, were better then Infinite. Why rip the Soul out of the series and turn it into a glorified Galley Shooter =/

 

[NinjamicWZ]

This made me think of stuff like Crazy Taxi and then stuff like Paper Planes and Welcome to Jamcrok in Far Cry 3... basically popular licensed music being a problem for digital games in the future, with the cost/profit math saying to just shoulder shrug it under the rug, archive the game or remove the music completely.

Never really thought about it before and remembering Far Cry makes me realize how standard that kind of music use is for big games right now. Ryan covered it up there nicely. Obligatory physical copy master race joke.

 

[DidntKnowJack]

So it will come back. But will it come back minus some music or other content/references tied to a licensing snafu?

 

[The Lone Courier]

So will they also remove the music from those that already own BS2, like Grand Theft Auto San Andreas? Also BS2 is best Bioshock.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

So it will come back. But will it come back minus some music or other content/references tied to a licensing snafu?

If I recall correctly, the main "licensed" music just played during the loading screens. I know, because I must have heard Bessie Smith's rendition of "Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out" probably dozens of times... or what felt like it anyway.

 

[Scully Scully Scoo]

this music licensing issue is such a load of shit i swear even some of gta sa original tracks got removed. and bs2 has really awesome tracks, i really liked listening to the 'run run run here comes the boogie man'

 

[Silurus]

Bioshock 2 and Minerva's Den are the best Bioshock games.

I agree with that.

 

[JaseC]

I suspect the game was removed from sale before the licences expired as this allows 2K to create new packages with modified data, which in turn allows existing owners to keep the original music. Basically, the same thing that R* did with Vice City but couldn't be bothered doing with San Andreas.

 

[Ban Puncher]

Didn't realise I did not own Minerva's Den on Steam.

Rectified that.

 

[old manatee]

Ahahaha they finally take out gfwl, add controller support and Minerva's den and now it isn't for sale. What a fucking clown car.

 

[A-V-B]

And nothing of value was lost.

Seriously though, B2 was horrible. I don't even mind i they were to omit it from any future remasters.

*EDIT*.

I guess i should say that Bioshock 2 was just plain unnecessary. It was horrible to me because it was just a waste of a game outside of arguably better mechanics. But i never played Bioshock for the combat, as i felt 1's was absolutely serviceable to the experience.

Terrible first post. Do you even Minerva's Den?

 

[tcrunch]

I've been doing a Bioshock RTTP, just finished the first game, this second one will be more of a LTTP because iirc I started to play it when it came out and got bored in the early sections, so never finished. We'll see how it goes this time (luckily someone got me the trilogy for xmas so I already have it!).

 

[FairXchange]

I love Bioshock 2, it made encounters great with preparing for splicers and setting up intricate traps. I should really play through it again some time.

 

[Fuchsdh]

And nothing of value was lost.

Seriously though, B2 was horrible. I don't even mind i they were to omit it from any future remasters.

*EDIT*.

I guess i should say that Bioshock 2 was just plain unnecessary. It was horrible to me because it was just a waste of a game outside of arguably better mechanics. But i never played Bioshock for the combat, as i felt 1's was absolutely serviceable to the experience.

If we're talking unnecessary, than Burial at Sea Pt. 2 takes the franchise crown for "plain unnecessary"

The game dived into parts of Rapture we never saw before. While it did complicate the narrative in ways that didn't make a lot of sense, I still greatly enjoyed it, especially it's far more nuanced morality system.

 

[jtb]

if you already own it, will you still be able to download it?

because that's a bullshit policy: when they pull copies of things YOU ALREADY PAID FOR. fuck anyone and everyone who does that.

 

[Canis lupus]

2? I thought that was Infinite, this one is like Bioshock 1.5.

Terrible first post. Do you even Minerva's Den?

Does it need a paid DLC to be good?

if you already own it, will you still be able to download it?

because that's a bullshit policy: when they pull copies of things YOU ALREADY PAID FOR. fuck anyone and everyone who does that.

Yeah you'll be able to do download if you own it. The digital future sucks, games get delisted and gone forever at random without a notice in advance.

 

[Aerocia]

Bioshock 2 is much better gameplay wise than Bioshock 1

I daresay I liked the plot more than 1 as well. BS1 is most people's favorite because you got to witness Rapture for the first time, while BS2 was just more of the same world.. and I suppose some people weren't keen on taking the role of a Big Daddy.

 

[Bytes]

I liked Bioshock 2 better than the original. I also thought Sofia Lamb's socialism was the perfect counterpart story to Ryan's objectivism.

 

[NekoFever]

Can anyone explain to me why Video Games seem to have this unique problem? Maybe I am just blind to it, but I never seem to see movies getting pulled from Amazon or Walmart because of some licensing issue running out. Or is that stuff just behind the scenes?

It can happen, but they usually just edit it out of later releases.

One example I can think of off the top of my head is Wayne's World, where Wayne is clearly not playing Stairway to Heaven in the "no Stairway!" scene in any version except the early ones.

 

[Gucci Messiah]

And nothing of value was lost.

Seriously though, B2 was horrible. I don't even mind i they were to omit it from any future remasters.

*EDIT*.

I guess i should say that Bioshock 2 was just plain unnecessary. It was horrible to me because it was just a waste of a game outside of arguably better mechanics. But i never played Bioshock for the combat, as i felt 1's was absolutely serviceable to the experience.

You should explain why it's "horrible" instead of making vague complaints. I don't think BS2 is as good as the first but painting it as a bad game is laughable. It's like you're incapable of judging a game without going to extreme ends of the spectrum.

 

[Shmeagatory94]

Bioshock 2 had the best gameplay to me while I thought Bioshock had the best story and Infinite had a interesting story but bad gameplay. Overall, I enjoyed Bioshock 2 the most I would say!

 

[GreyOcelot]

what are the chances they ran into this issue while trying to secure rights for PS4/XB1 ports?

 

[JohnnyFootball]

BIoshock 2 had great gameplay and one of the best DLC packs of all time: Minervas Den

But Bioshock 2 was VERY weak in terms of story and level design. Rapture no longer felt interesting or alive. Bioshock 1s Rapture felt like a beautiful mansion, while Bioshock 2s Rapture felt like a guest house or even an outhouse.

But I did enjoy Bioshock 2.

 

[Ralemont]

I daresay I liked the plot more than 1 as well. BS1 is most people's favorite because you got to witness Rapture for the first time, while BS2 was just more of the same world.. and I suppose some people weren't keen on taking the role of a Big Daddy.

I agree. I also think Eleanor is the best BioShock character besides Andrew Ryan, and that the sequence where you see the world as a Little Sister does stands out as the most memorable of the whole series.

That it has better gameplay on top of what I feel is a better story just widens the gap.

...Somewhat shamefully despite thinking BioShock 2 is far and away the best one, I've never played Minerva's Den.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

what are the chances they ran into this issue while trying to secure rights for PS4/XB1 ports?

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Take 2 owns the rights.

 

[GreyOcelot]

This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Take 2 owns the rights.

what i mean is, take 2 was trying to license the music for ps4/xb1 ports, realized they weren't licensed for the other systems anymore and pulled the games until they could secure licensing

 

[Fisty]

BS2's level design and environments were top notch (by some of BS1's key players), and the combat was much more fluid. Story was pedestrian, but Minerva's Den was easily in the top 5 DLC from gen 7, which makes up for BS2's shortcomings.

We dont talk about the MP though.

 

[BouncyFrag]

I can still download Minerva's Den via my download history on my X360. When I first plateyed B2 I groaned when protecting the sisters when they were harvesting Adam was a big part of the game, but we were given so many options for crazy traps and the like, that it turned out to be a blast. Lamb was by no means as compelling as Ryan in the original, but I really enjoyed it and appreciated its replay value.

 

[Aerocia]

I agree. I also think Eleanor is the best BioShock character besides Andrew Ryan, and that the sequence where you see the world as a Little Sister does stands out as the most memorable of the whole series.

That it has better gameplay on top of what I feel is a better story just widens the gap.

...Somewhat shamefully despite thinking BioShock 2 is far and away the best one, I've never played Minerva's Den.

How could I forget? Easily one of my favorite moments, coupled with the track playing behind it. The immersion was spot on.

Now I feel like replaying the game.

 

[GreyOcelot]

I can still download Minerva's Den via my download history on my X360. When I first plateyed B2 I groaned when protecting the sisters when they were harvesting Adam was a big part of the game, but we were given so many options for crazy traps and the like, that it turned out to be a blast. Lamb was by no means as compelling as Ryan in the original, but I really enjoyed it and appreciated its replay value.

i enjoyed planning out those moments, but there were too many of them IMO. it was a great idea though. i wish some of those ideas made it into infinite

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I agree. I also think Eleanor is the best BioShock character besides Andrew Ryan, and that the sequence where you see the world as a Little Sister does stands out as the most memorable of the whole series.

That it has better gameplay on top of what I feel is a better story just widens the gap.

...Somewhat shamefully despite thinking BioShock 2 is far and away the best one, I've never played Minerva's Den.

Minerva's Den blows Bioshock 2 away honestly.

 

[truly101]

And nothing of value was lost.

Seriously though, B2 was horrible. I don't even mind i they were to omit it from any future remasters.

*EDIT*.

I guess i should say that Bioshock 2 was just plain unnecessary. It was horrible to me because it was just a waste of a game outside of arguably better mechanics. But i never played Bioshock for the combat, as i felt 1's was absolutely serviceable to the experience.

There are a lot of parallels between 2's plot and Infinite's plot, especially how it relates to Eleanor Lamb and Elizabeth, subject delta and songbird. Its too bad Irrational didn't feel the need to link them, because it wouldn't have been a stretch. I though B2 was not necessary as well but Infinite changed my mind.

 

[A-V-B]

2? I thought that was Infinite, this one is like Bioshock 1.5.



Does it need a paid DLC to be good?

It's been free for a while now, but Minerva's Den is actually worth more than Bioshock 2. I'd almost say it's worth more than every entry in the series simply because it's the only Bioshock that doesn't have any intrinsic flaws. No serious problems with characters, no problems with pacing, no problems will post-twist burnout, no problems with a lack of resolution AFTER the twist, and the gameplay is even better than Bioshock 2 because of the new weapons and how upgrade progression flows. It's sort of amazing. It doesn't have the initial shock value of BS1, of course. There are no moments where you realize you're playing the game instead of watching a cutscene. And it's not your first time into Rapture. But it's the most refined.

 

[John Kowalski]

looks like someone forgot to update some licences

 

[To Far Away Times]

And nothing of value was lost.

Seriously though, B2 was horrible. I don't even mind i they were to omit it from any future remasters.

*EDIT*.

I guess i should say that Bioshock 2 was just plain unnecessary. It was horrible to me because it was just a waste of a game outside of arguably better mechanics. But i never played Bioshock for the combat, as i felt 1's was absolutely serviceable to the experience.

Bioshock 2 takes a big giant diarrhea dump on Bioshock Infinite from a great height, and Bioshock 2 is better than 90% of the AAA games released last gen.

 

[Ralemont]

Minerva's Den blows Bioshock 2 away honestly.

Just to demonstrate what an idiot I am, after reading your post I went to check how much Minerva's Den was on the PSN.

 

[Dr. Buni]

And nothing of value was lost.

Seriously though, B2 was horrible. I don't even mind i they were to omit it from any future remasters.

The thread isn't about Bioshock Infinite

Spoiler

And even then, something of value would be lost, the game is the worst in the series, but still good.

@thread: Fortunately I already have the trilogy on Steam, so that doesn't affect.

 

[mreddie]

Minervas Den is better than Burial at Sea.

/jumps off thread

 

[A-V-B]

Minervas Den is better than Burial at Sea.

/jumps off thread

That's not a very controversial statement

 

[Nekofrog]

is it time to bump on the amount i've spent on this game from $1750 to $1850?

it might b

 

[chemicals]

Why did this thread turn into a comparison thread? All 3 Bioshock games are brilliant.

This whole trend of modifying downloaded games because of lost music licenses just sucks. Guess it just shows how young of an industry gaming is.

 

[Biker19]

I liked BS2 :/.

Well that sucks. I never got around to picking up Minerva's den. I guess I'm SOL now.

Your only choices now are to buy the physical copy of the game on either PS3 or 360.

 

[Canis lupus]

It's been free for a while now, but Minerva's Den is actually worth more than Bioshock 2. I'd almost say it's worth more than every entry in the series simply because it's the only Bioshock that doesn't have any intrinsic flaws. No serious problems with characters, no problems with pacing, no problems will post-twist burnout, no problems with a lack of resolution AFTER the twist, and the gameplay is even better than Bioshock 2 because of the new weapons and how upgrade progression flows. It's sort of amazing. It doesn't have the initial shock value of BS1, of course. There are no moments where you realize you're playing the game instead of watching a cutscene. And it's not your first time into Rapture. But it's the most refined.

When was it free? I have all Bioshock games but not Minerva's den, last time I checked it cost 10 euro. I'd like to try it out.

 

[entremet]

this music licensing issue is such a load of shit i swear even some of gta sa original tracks got removed. and bs2 has really awesome tracks, i really liked listening to the 'run run run here comes the boogie man'

Yeah. such a pain.

 

[A-V-B]

When was it free? I have all Bioshock games but not Minerva's den, last time I checked it cost 10 euro. I'd like to try it out.

It's been free with BS2 ever since they took GFWL out of it. Unless you mean the console version, and I don't know the details about that.

 

[InfiniteNine]

It's been free with BS2 ever since they took GFWL out of it. Unless you mean the console version, and I don't know the details about that.

I'm pretty sure it was only free for those who activated GFWL codes when it switched over.

 

[silver.tongue]

I made a thread about this and ppl said I was crazy!

 

[Daemul]

Bioshock 2 and Minerva's Den are the best Bioshock games.

Damn right

Minervas Den is better than Burial at Sea.

/jumps off thread

You actually won't find many people who will disagree with you.