My understanding is that although they will form a political party it probably won't be successful any time in the near future due to history of FARC and their tactics. How true is that? It at least seems to make a lot sense from an outside perspective.
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Colombia, FARC rebels to sign ceasefire agreement
- Thread starter Corronchilejano
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My understanding is that although they will form a political party it probably won't be successful any time in the near future due to history of FARC and their tactics. How true is that? It at least seems to make a lot sense from an outside perspective.
That's 100% true, their party is DOA, the thing is the agreement gives them 8 years of "free" seats, but after that they gotta earn those votes, and that's something they're not doing, unless a miracle happens and they choose their equivalents to Obama and Bernie to represent them; people here really, really hate those guys, I do too, I just want them out of the war by whatever means necessary.
Make no mistake, some guys will try to get back to guns after their benefits expire, but by that time the old chiefs will have asylum in Europe or something and their troops will be so disbanded they will simply organize themselves as normal criminal bands the army/police can take care of. That's far better than having 25.000 guys out there fully organized and micromanaged to make terror.
The vote has to be about something that is signed and already exists, otherwise it could be changed to anything by adding things to the treaty.
People never thought peace in Northern Ireland would ever happen. Similar tactics. Similar fears of capitulating to corrupt terrorists who were criminals first and freedom fighters second.
As I said, we've never had any slight leanings to the left, in fact, there's more risk for turning into some kind of fascist state than Venezuela.
What happened to your country is truly regretful and, I agree, completely unexpected (I remember you being rich AF in the 90's and we being envious) believe me, we want you to get better, if you are good, we are good, we're brothers.
Corronchilejano
Member
FARC has some support among leftists and rural areas. If anything, it'll probably increase the amount of people that'll vote. They have eights years to show us what they got.
Coriolanus
Banned
But...the PSUN... is center-left...
Wouldnt be surprised to see it eventually morphing into a Sinn Fein equivalent. Or a hamas.
Corronchilejano
Member
What? The PSUN is "center-right" (read: As right as they can be). They've aligned themselves with hardline conservatives against gay rights, gender discrimination laws and all sorts of leftists views.
They even claim the boogie man of comunism is out to get us.
Did not happen with M-19, I doubt it'll happen again. What I am afraid is a resurgence of paramilitaries, Uribes' good ol' friends, murdering candidates.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, it's a shame that whenever there's a leftist president running to government, he gets killed.
Gaitan?
Galan?
EDIT: Forgot more:
Pizarro Leongomez?
Jaramillo Ossa?
The intolerance of my country has appalled me. I'm fucking tired of it. The civility that most manifestations of Yes and No for the referendum has surprised me at least. Maybe we can change after all.
Indeed. I'm very nervous.
Not really if you consider that the state gives money to all political parties. What angers the right is that they'll receive more money than allCORRECTION: they'll receive more money than small political parties, up to a certain year.
You should hit up your local embassy. I know they have information.
Gaitan?
Galan?
EDIT: Forgot more:
Pizarro Leongomez?
Jaramillo Ossa?
The intolerance of my country has appalled me. I'm fucking tired of it. The civility that most manifestations of Yes and No for the referendum has surprised me at least. Maybe we can change after all.
Indeed. I'm very nervous.
Not really if you consider that the state gives money to all political parties. What angers the right is that they'll receive
You should hit up your local embassy. I know they have information.
Coriolanus
Banned
Ah well, my bad for not checking out the sources on the wikipedia article. "oh hey, he compared himself to blair in the WSJ, must be center-left".
They also spouting that nonsense about "stopping the bolivarian revolution"? Gods, it's so silly how that became a talking point in so many places in SA.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Fuck PSUN right in the ass. Two senators voted against a law that would make politicians more transparent in their voting. It needed one to pass.
Corronchilejano
Member
Unfortunately, the state never opened registrations for nationals in foreign territories. As far as I know, they won't be able to vote.
People are very afraid of things turning out like in Venezuela without actually understanding what's going on in the world.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Really? I could've sworn I heard about foreigners being able to vote from other countries.
EDIT: Well, I found this: http://www.elpais.com.co/elpais/col...ior-tendran-200-puestos-para-votar-plebiscito
Well, you're right, you can't register to vote, but if you've voted before, you can vote in the referendum. EDIT: Oh, you replied with the same info. Nvm, then.
Corronchilejano
Member
Unless you were already registered to vote, no.
Amen. Being Peruvian we're farther south and don't share quite as much history but it's hard to deny that we're not all better off when we're all prosperous.
Good idea. Looks like the embassy in NYC is allowing people to vote although I'm still registered with the embassy in Miami... I wonder if I'll be able to change it in time.
Looks like we can in NYC at least.
Oh, well, I've voted before, but at a different embassy.
Corronchilejano
Member
As much shit as the EU gets, I wish one day South America can accomplish something like it.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I also want to add that it's ridiculous to think that a former-FARC presidential leader would make us turn into Venezuela. By several reasons:
1. All the freaking country is right-leaning (I'll only say that the Senate is consider putting to vote a human right for minorities, the right for homoparental adoption), so them getting democratically elected at anything (much less executive roles) is very unlikely.
2. They aren't going to get many seats, if at all, in Congress without coalitions, which means they'll have to pivot to the center if they want to work in politics.
3. There are different institutions that keep the balance of power in Colombia. Even if people think there's a lot of corruption (and there is), we've seen it punish politicians. Supreme Justices have been taken off their charges, former ministers are prosecuted for corruption, etc. What I want to get to, is that if any of these potential leaders want to go against the Constitution, they'll have to get through a lot of opposition. Not to mention that they'll be under the spotlight for a long time just for the right-leaning parties to say "you see? WE TOLD YOU!"
1. All the freaking country is right-leaning (I'll only say that the Senate is consider putting to vote a human right for minorities, the right for homoparental adoption), so them getting democratically elected at anything (much less executive roles) is very unlikely.
2. They aren't going to get many seats, if at all, in Congress without coalitions, which means they'll have to pivot to the center if they want to work in politics.
3. There are different institutions that keep the balance of power in Colombia. Even if people think there's a lot of corruption (and there is), we've seen it punish politicians. Supreme Justices have been taken off their charges, former ministers are prosecuted for corruption, etc. What I want to get to, is that if any of these potential leaders want to go against the Constitution, they'll have to get through a lot of opposition. Not to mention that they'll be under the spotlight for a long time just for the right-leaning parties to say "you see? WE TOLD YOU!"
StickSoldier
Member
Yay! My mom is probably going to be ecstatic about this, as is my grandmother. I remember always being terrified to visit my grandmother in Medellin when I was younger because of how bad it was. I really need to go back and visit, I haven't been in a LONG time.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
The city's changed a lot, even in the past 5 years. Shame you missed the Festival of Flowers! Was pretty good this year.
The transportation infrastructure will blow your mind, if you explore it. It's amazing how they've connected even distant and neglected neighborhoods through different transportation methods. And they're going to keep expanding it. The international airport is also getting an expansion (in construction right now).
We still have some crime problems though (nothing compared to the Escobar era though). Although I keep reading news of crime leaders being caught every now and then in the newspaper.
Anyway, do hope you come someday! Sorry for the OT.
Que hay!? Pasando por acá y leo:
Whats going on guys? GafColombia is a thing now I see. I think aside for our president that is a moron and a plutocrat, we have to vote "YES". I want a new generation that live without the stigma of FARC, or Pablo Escobar, Narcotrafico, Alvaro Uribe, etc. Maybe it's for nothing, maybe things will go sour a little more before Colombia get "clean" but it is worth the shot. Yes, the peace treaty is flawed, but is the best we got. The one that seek revenge or thinking that voting NO is an answer are awful wrong. My family and I were victims for years of this horrible war, we don't want more war. We want at least the illusion of better times.
edit: I don't think this is something like Brexit, this could cause more division within but in the long run, this is the way.
Whats going on guys? GafColombia is a thing now I see. I think aside for our president that is a moron and a plutocrat, we have to vote "YES". I want a new generation that live without the stigma of FARC, or Pablo Escobar, Narcotrafico, Alvaro Uribe, etc. Maybe it's for nothing, maybe things will go sour a little more before Colombia get "clean" but it is worth the shot. Yes, the peace treaty is flawed, but is the best we got. The one that seek revenge or thinking that voting NO is an answer are awful wrong. My family and I were victims for years of this horrible war, we don't want more war. We want at least the illusion of better times.
edit: I don't think this is something like Brexit, this could cause more division within but in the long run, this is the way.
Medellin is the goat big colombian city now (fuck Bogota, what a shithole). So beautiful. That it's become a big runaway is the icing on the cake (its average inhabitant is ridiculously good looking lol). You should go back!.
I live in Medellin back and fort, don't believe the hype.
edit: isn't that beautiful anymore with you much constructions going on. A lot of it vegetation is lost because of the insane amount bad road engineering. At least half of the contracts for infrastructure are being reconstructed because once again, CORRUPTION
NeOak
Member
Admiral Woofington
Member
I'm from Cartagena originally and still visit family down there every 2 or so years. City used to be for me the goat, high cost of living in decent places aside, but Jesus it has gotten scary at nights
far from GOAT.
NeOak
Member
exactly
Who would you nominate? Cali? Barranquilla? (Which is nice, I accept it, but too damn hot) Bogota? Fucking Bogota? lol, our big cities suck, accept it, at least Medellin is nice on the eyes.
Everybody knows our real goat city is Manizales anyway
WAR recon zero
Banned
I am afraid the NO will win after BREXIT and TRUMP
You mean YES, since YES is the equivalent of Brexit and Trump.
This "peace" is nothing else than giving the FARC leaders more power, allowing them to enjoy their drugs money, have political power and and a huge private army called ELN since all the best (the bloodiest) soldiers, best weapons, and of course most of the cocaine labs will be handed to the ELN.
This treat peace will bring a few years of economic growth for the country, the violence will be at a minimum, and everyone will have this false sense of security, that is all.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
Damn, this is huge. Most of my dad's side fled from Colombia to the US back in the 60s under threat of violence, so I definitely wanna see their take on this.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Could've sworn that the General Attorney had stated that the rebels have to declare their assets unless they want them taken away. It's also pretty funny that you compare the referendum with Brexit and Trump, since the points you're giving are the same ones that the far-right political group are saying, Centro Democratico. Said group is starting to be so desperate that they're turning to hardcore evangelical groups to gain voters (you can see campaign ads saying that this treaty has gender ideology and we're going to turn into a "communist atheist homosexual country", that's not a joke BTW). You can almost see the Republican party from USA in this group. It's also pretty funny the comparison since no one in the world wants Trump to win, and no one wanted Brexit, outside of those countries. Yet you see the UN praising the deals, Obama, and other leaders. (If they were so bad as the opposition says, then the so called idiot president is the smartest conman ever in the history of Colombia)
I also though I had read that the biggest point of the deal is to prevent the recurrence of more guerrilla groups, through the economical and social development of rural areas. Because, after all, these groups come from the abandonment of State in rural areas.
Sure, other groups will take over the drug business, but it simply highlights the problems of the War on Drugs, you can't keep hitting the offer side of the business because they'll simply find desperate people to work for money and food. Thus, the peace deal with the FARC, that tackles the problem through public health promotion and other ways.
You also mention that these treaties are giving FARC more power, yet fail to acknowledge that they have to be democratically chosen, and have to pivot to the center if they want to gain said power, by forming alliances with other political parties. The five postions in both Senate and Chamber of Representatives they're given constitute less than 5% and 3% respectively of the total number of senators and representatives. Yeah, they're not doing anything with that power. No, Colombia isn't going to turn into Venezuela because of this peace deal, and I seriously doubt the actual knowledge of politics and history from anyone who brings that talking point as an actual argument.
WAR recon zero
Banned
Could not say it better
The NO argument is baffling. Most of the people voting NO have not seen war in the countryside and are a bunch of wealthy or mid class people.
The NO argument is baffling. Most of the people voting NO have not seen war in the countryside and are a bunch of wealthy or mid class people.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Fresh off the press: Farc declararán hasta el último peso de su economía (FARC will declare their war economy money)
They will certain enjoy that money. By 'they' I mean the people who suffered from the conflict.
They will certain enjoy that money. By 'they' I mean the people who suffered from the conflict.
WAR recon zero
Banned
That's the part of the treaty i don't like. They appear to be a very poor guerrilla, but maintaining 25000 men costs money. A lot of money that comes somewhere
This must be followed, but the treaty is very ambiguous
This must be followed, but the treaty is very ambiguous
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Oh no, they're not a poor guerrilla at all. They also don't have 25K men. According to the latest estimates, they have almost 6 thousand men and women.
Corronchilejano
Member
Make yourself heard ColombiaGaf.
WAR recon zero
Banned
30 minutes and we begin the shitshow
The campaign has been as worse as you imagine. Evangelic and Christian churches with a false narrative, saying that if the YES wins, Colombia will become a Atheist Marxist Homosexual State, whatever the fuck that means. Mind you there is nothing extremely pro Lgbt in the treaty, besides you know, treat minorities with fucking respect.
The shitshow is so nasty on facebook, that, since I'm campaigning for the YES, i have been called a Leftist guerrilla man. If this were the 90s that's a death sentence. I will delete a lot of people today after the results are in.
So, outsiders will ask, who would be against a peace treaty?
Well, land owners. Because of the conflict, many lands were sold to guerrilla, and paramilitary groups. And now the treaty wants these to be given back. The wealthy guys are not going to let the land go back to the filthy peasents. Hell, people claiming these lands are being killed left and right.
The country is split in 2 and even if the YES win, the narrative of an atheist communist guerrilla gay state will stay on the minds of 50% of the people, and I'm afraid there will be blood.
So, for the love of god, you old people, let the young ones live in a country at peace.
The campaign has been as worse as you imagine. Evangelic and Christian churches with a false narrative, saying that if the YES wins, Colombia will become a Atheist Marxist Homosexual State, whatever the fuck that means. Mind you there is nothing extremely pro Lgbt in the treaty, besides you know, treat minorities with fucking respect.
The shitshow is so nasty on facebook, that, since I'm campaigning for the YES, i have been called a Leftist guerrilla man. If this were the 90s that's a death sentence. I will delete a lot of people today after the results are in.
So, outsiders will ask, who would be against a peace treaty?
Well, land owners. Because of the conflict, many lands were sold to guerrilla, and paramilitary groups. And now the treaty wants these to be given back. The wealthy guys are not going to let the land go back to the filthy peasents. Hell, people claiming these lands are being killed left and right.
The country is split in 2 and even if the YES win, the narrative of an atheist communist guerrilla gay state will stay on the minds of 50% of the people, and I'm afraid there will be blood.
So, for the love of god, you old people, let the young ones live in a country at peace.
Corronchilejano
Member
I'm ready to be part of a fabulous country.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Well, I voted. Here's hoping we pass the page on this.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Voting will close at 4PM national time, I think we might have results around 6-7PM. 8PM at most.
Wasn't able to vote because of some error that said I was registered in a city I've never lived in. Which is frustrating but not as frustrating as what came after.
I made the mistake of telling my mum about it and she basically cried on the phone because I said I would have voted Si. And like, I get it. I don't judge my parents because I know the shit they went through but to be treated like I'm an idiot and betraying them is just... ugh. My mum pretty much thinks this means we're turning into Venezuela and we can never go back and we're going to lose all of our money and our land.
I made the mistake of telling my mum about it and she basically cried on the phone because I said I would have voted Si. And like, I get it. I don't judge my parents because I know the shit they went through but to be treated like I'm an idiot and betraying them is just... ugh. My mum pretty much thinks this means we're turning into Venezuela and we can never go back and we're going to lose all of our money and our land.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Sorry about that, Pau. I have had to basically remain hush about my political and social beliefs because of verbal fights I've been. Even while remaining calm, people seem angry that there are others who think different. I'm through my "convince people with arguments" phase and just prefer to listen to them and try to understand where they come from. And start asking questions and see if they can see other arguments.
Hope it wasn't so bad. If you still want to talk to them about this, I think it's better to wait a bit of time until the dust has settled and people see the deals for what they do, rather than what politicians say.
Yeah, I'm past that phase too. I even kept saying that I completely understood why they were voting No. I know my parents wouldn't vote yes to a peace treaty unless it meant punishment, jail time, or death for every guerrillero out there. I get it comes from an emotional and traumatic place that might never fully heal. Unfortunately, such a thing would only continue the cycle of violence and I think Colombia's had enough.
I should have known better and just lied. We'll see what happens tonight.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Count has begun, Yes is winning by 3K votes.
(Hope people don't mind me bumping this for updates)
EDIT: Now Yes is winning by 13K votes. 2% votes counted.
(Hope people don't mind me bumping this for updates)
EDIT: Now Yes is winning by 13K votes. 2% votes counted.
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