Apologies! Well, er... we can run a Quantum Break vs Mario Kart 8 side-by-side, if there's enough interest.
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Digital Foundry hands-on Quantum Break (XB1)
- Thread starter Man
- Start date
Now THAT'S an idea.
All the post processing effects aren't helping. Maybe MS should bring back automatic sharpening filter for this game.
Jessie.Bristol
Member
There are other games that have used the image reconstruction technique this generation. One of the first that I know of was Rainbow Six Siege, except it used a lower base resolution of 960x540 with just 2xMSAA. Whereas Quantum Break uses a base resolution of 1280x720 with 4xMSAA for it's 1080p image reconstruction. And if NXGamer is to be believed then Uncharted 4 also uses this technique (though, if true, we do not know the base resolution prior to the image reconstruction).
LukasTaves
Member
I believe the key here is using MSAA. They are using MSAAed 720p buffers, which takes samples from a higher resolution image in order to smooth the edges. They are probably using that same info to recreate a higher res image, whilist using the previous frames as a sort of low pass filter making sure their output frame is stable.
Sounds like the pixels in the center are the pixel density of 1080p, imagine having 720p natively in the middle of a screen without being blown up to fill the screen. Then they fill the blank spaces on all side with a marriage of 4 prior frames. The sides being less important during action for the most part.
LukasTaves
Member
That's kinda the look they want. Back before this gen started Remedy was one of the developers that said games are way oversampled compared to BR movies.
Of course, having the power to run the game at 1080p they would probably take that, but I believe even in 1080p the game isn't going to be that sharp.
Jessie.Bristol
Member
The technique is actually called Temporal Checkerboard Rendering and according to Ubisoft can free up up to 50% of the GPU. You can Google the technique and find tons of papers on it (most recently from Siggraph I believe in the Advances in Real-Time Rendering).
StrongBlackVine
Banned
In general I want native 1080p as the first priority and fit the rest around that. I don't like sub-1080p in ANY game. But I find it somewhat more tolerable if the game is dropping resolution for increased framerate(60fps). That is just MY preference and I'm not saying that is the way it should be or that any one has to agree with it.
Killzone was doing it with 2 1080i images in multiplayer to target 60 fps.
ethomaz
Banned
You get better results than 720p upscalled to 1080p? Yes.
Better result than native 900p or 1080p? No.
ethomaz
Banned
I believe PC version will be sharper at native 1080p because I think this tech won't be used on PC.
This is a core rendering technique. I doubt Remedy can rework the PC version to this extent.
Not to mention the PC version must have been a relatively recent development.
Most likely the PC version will work the same way and therefore look as blurry at 1080p.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
Sounds insane. There are some clever people on this planet. Really using magic on a weak platform to deliver their vision
What what's that about uncharted? Anything further on this? Can dark10x comment? There will be a lot of upset people on here if it isn't native 1080p ( I couldn't care it looks amazing to me)
Jessie.Bristol
Member
I only mentioned Uncharted 4 because NXGamer has said it in his most recent Uncharted 4 analysis that it uses it. Digital Foundry hasn't commented on it and NXGamer is the only source according to their analysis, so it's to be taken with a grain of salt until confirmed.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
I find it hard to believe that would be the case if the multi is 900p and 60. Seems a bit weird. Do you have a link I could check the video please. I just find it a bit unbelievable that it wouldn't be 1080p
PC gamers will not like that.
Rainbow 6 siege used some similar techniques and gave the option on PC
Ricky Ricardo
Member
We'll see. If it has to render 4x MSAA frames to replicate the process on Xbox One, it would make sense why the Ultra settings recommended are so beefy. Would also make for a ridiculously good looking game if one could manage 4x 1080p frames.
Honestly I think any single player game is facing a uphill battle on Xbox.
I just know how Picky PC gamers are hopefully it all works out.
El-Pistolero
Member
The cinematics are close enough...The ingame segments are way, way less impressive.
LukasTaves
Member
I found this: http://advances.realtimerendering.c...siggraph2015_combined_final_footer_220dpi.pdf
Is this one of the papers you mentioned?
Anyway, looks like a good read, thanks!
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
I think any single player games this gen to be honest. On either platform. Has any exclusive eclipsed a couple of million? I think uncharted is the first chance to do crazy numbers. If that's down then I don't even know lol. Hopefully qb does a couple of million. If it sells as much as bloodborne that has to be some kind of success surely
https://youtu.be/zpNpTjpnwFY
at 11:00
He mentioned until dawn, KZ:SF and AC. i have no plan what he is talking about.
Bear Force One
Banned
A bigger issue is their human models are so bad.
LukasTaves
Member
Which can be said to nearly every game ever when they push cinematics the most they can.
El-Pistolero
Member
With the caveat that some of them get closer to that target.
I am not dissing the great work accomplished by Remedy. They did the best they could given the constraints, and the final result holds its own against the best the machine has had to offer. But there being a rather large disparity between the cinematics and the in-game portions is just undeniable.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
Yeh he says that it's still pixel counted at 1080. I don't understand either. Thanks for that tho. Looks crisp anyway.
Qb deffo looks blurry so I am thinking it can't be making a full 1080 buffer image? I'm not too technical so I'm not sure.
I can just see that qb looks awesome but deffo blurring than a 1080p release
chromatic9
Member
U4 may well be using 1920x1080 as a base. QB is 1280x720.
The upshot for QB is a much refined 1280x720 like image. Better than merely upscaling.
Jessie.Bristol
Member
This video here he mentions it and spends a minute or so talking about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpNpTjpnwFY
But like I said, he is the only source on it so it should be taken with a grain of salt until either Digital Foundry or Naughty Dog confirms/denies it.
If the technique is used in Uncharted 4, MP being 900p60 does not discount image reconstruction being used. Rainbow Six Siege uses it on Xbox One and PS4, but the image reconstruction is 1080p60 on PS4 but only 900p60 on Xbox One.
It might be the one, there are several sources and papers on the technique. Personally I feel with the current gen hardware that we will see more games utilize this technique to make sure image quality is the best it can be. As well as pushing the overall visuals beyond what they could normally.
ethomaz
Banned
No.
There is no benefice to PC use it... makes no sense at all.
What?
PC will render 1080p native with 4xMSAA and more.
4x 1080p you mean render in 1080p and output in blurred 4K??? You better go with 1440p or more native.
There is no use for this tech in PC.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
This is some facinating stuff
Jessie.Bristol
Member
Rainbow Six Siege gives the option on PC under the Temporal Filtering setting: http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/gu...e#tom-clancys-rainbow-six-siege-anti-aliasing
NVIDIA said:
It allows less capable hardware on PC to get the same benefit that Xbox One and PS4 got with Rainbow Six Siege. It obviously does not look as clean as native 1080p but it comes close enough especially when you compare PS4 and PC from the Digital Foundry Face-Off article.
I'm thinking the same. This is really interesting.
Why output in an image that looks better than 1080p but without the performance decrease of running at 1440p and above?
why is there no use to it? if it improves the image quality over one resolution while not requiring as much grunt as a higher resolution, that seems worthwhile, no?
some games already offer options to display the geometry at a lower resolution than the UI for people whose monitors support a higher resolution than they can play the game at, it seems to me to be not really different.
dr_rus
Member
You can get the PC version to run in any resolution by lowering other settings instead of resorting to frame buffer reconstruction. The tech is interesting but I also don't think that it's that interesting on PC where you have lots of different target resolutions and the ability to tweak the settings. I'd much rather prefer to use MSAA as AA and not as a source of edge reconstruction.
LostDonkey
Member
Wow, can't wait to read/hear more about this. Sounds like some really good tricks/workarounds to get a decent iq/performance for the game.
So it's not "native" 720p, and it's not "native" 1080p but it is being reconstructed to 1080p through 4 720p 4xmsaa frames.
Holy crap, that's sounds like a lot of work for the machine to be doing.....but then apparently it frees up 50%of GPU time doing it this way. Wow.
I'm dying to see this in front of my eyes. Any news yet on the WIN10 codes from the XB1 pre orders? Are they separate WIN10 keys or tied to the XB1 account?
So it's not "native" 720p, and it's not "native" 1080p but it is being reconstructed to 1080p through 4 720p 4xmsaa frames.
Holy crap, that's sounds like a lot of work for the machine to be doing.....but then apparently it frees up 50%of GPU time doing it this way. Wow.
I'm dying to see this in front of my eyes. Any news yet on the WIN10 codes from the XB1 pre orders? Are they separate WIN10 keys or tied to the XB1 account?
Separate key.
The Windows Store and Xbox Store will be merged in summer, so no cross-buy until then.
LostDonkey
Member
Great news! Thanks!
I doubt they'll literally be merged, MS will likely still curate the W10 apps coming to Xbox. I'd like to be proven wrong though, Xbox has better (NFL) and more (Amazon Video) apps than the Windows 10 Store currently.
Anyhow, hope I'll be able to snatch a cheap key through this. €50 for a 7-8 hour, linear SP game without the ability to re-sell it is a bit much for my liking.
LostDonkey
Member
In that same video at the 10:35 mark, He says that dithering is caused by what he believes to be the "reconstructive nature of the rendering pipeline"
Maybe that is what he meant?
and at 11:10 "my guess is that they are using an MSAA reconstruction system to create a native 1080p output buffer, from a quarter? size start in various parts of the renderer"
Well I meant merged in a way that allows cross-buy easily.
It will be curated for sure, but we can expect cross-buy as a standard going forward.
LukasTaves
Member
There's a talk from Ubi, the tech described looks to be what I was thinking. They use AA samples to perfectly reconstruct the edges in 1080p and use that data to interpolate the pixels inside. There's no mention of temporal reprojection on the slide, but I'm assuming that came later to give better results in motion.
It's not 50% less gpu in total. Some parts of the rendering pipeline see lesser gains of 20% (which still is quite good).
The shading indeed had 50% gains but keep in mind that it was rendering at 540p. At 720p like remedy is doing, could be a lot closer than rendering native.
I wonder if the reason they did that was final look instead of performance. Games like Rise of the Tomb Raider even though it's 1080p got criticized by it's IQ, and in this hands on DF kinda implies QB has a superior image quality than it. It wouldn't bethe first time if they did. According to then in Alan Wake on 360 the resolution + AA they went with was more stressful to edram than 720p with AA2x (what they had before) but they decided for the lower res due the better AA and less noise in the image.
It seems to me he says reconstruction for some of the buffers used for rendering (like shadows and light buffers), but the geometry buffer (which is usually used for pixel counting) is native 1080p.
