no you..
Edit: ahh top of the page curse. Theological discussion moved there: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1070060
Edit: Don't bother. Thread closed.
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*EID MUBARAK!* RAMADAN 2015 |OT| Come with me if you want to fast
- Thread starter RustyNails
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no you..
Edit: ahh top of the page curse. Theological discussion moved there: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1070060
Edit: Don't bother. Thread closed.
OttomanScribe
Member
Damn, I missed it.
I did earlier suggest that we shouldn't be having such conversations in this thread but I was told that we should lol.
How about we take it to the Islam thread? Link here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=261564&page=58
Tizoc
Member
Y'all need to head to Islam OT. This is a thread about pictures of pakoras.
My man, we usually have Pakoora on futoor every other day.
OttomanScribe
Member
Had an awesome iftar yesterday. Me and about 15 mates went to an Afghan restaurant and packed the place out. Didn't get served til about 45 mins after maghrib but oh well.
So great alhamduliLlah.
So great alhamduliLlah.
Man this Ramadan is draining me hard.
I've started living on coffee because work has gotten so stressful and the timings here in the UK are MAD.
So iftar is at 9:20pm and then you gotta do your prayers at around 11. THen wake up at 2am! By the time I manage to sleep its like 5am and I have to get ready for work around 7-8. Plus the bleedin buildiers next door sound like they're trying to recreate the battle of Ramallah.
I'm here at work...starving...struggling to concentrate p_p
Still. Gotta fight for akhirath!
I've started living on coffee because work has gotten so stressful and the timings here in the UK are MAD.
So iftar is at 9:20pm and then you gotta do your prayers at around 11. THen wake up at 2am! By the time I manage to sleep its like 5am and I have to get ready for work around 7-8. Plus the bleedin buildiers next door sound like they're trying to recreate the battle of Ramallah.
I'm here at work...starving...struggling to concentrate p_p
Still. Gotta fight for akhirath!
irfaanator
Banned
Ha ha.
Theological discussion is very much related to Ramadan though.
And doesn't make my stomach grumble.
I swear if you guys complain about people who keep talking about food whilst you're fasting...
Guess I'll see ya guys at Eid. Enjoy your Ramadan!
RustyNails
Member
Hang in there!
victreeb3l
Member
Indeed. You ate considerably less carbs that day than previous ones. Just keep at it, you'll eventually forget about rice and roti like an old high school crush!
RustyNails
Member
Wow can't believe it's been a week.
The Artisan
Member
y'know, it'd be nice if people could actually say who they're referring to in posts unless it's quoted, or obvious. like, i'm not sure if anything I said has been wildly out of place in this thread.
RustyNails
Member
That was clearly directed towards the secularism discussion. I am OK with a little bit of discussion here and there but this topic deserved its own place.
irfaanator
Banned
yea im down with some since I always find it intriguing, but kinda sucks if it dominates the this thread
The Artisan
Member
I haven't actually noticed any deep discussions going on here. not saying there isn't any but because I don't get to spend as much time on gaf as before I'm not as active as say in this thread.
shadowfall
Member
I am not a muslim but I find the fasting impressive. I personally cannot go fasting for long since I am diabetic and have to eat for medication reasons. But good luck folks.
The Artisan
Member
Okay. Just because I got into a heated debate with my mother this morning during ceri, can someone please verify for me if tarabi is compulsory or not and how you know so? I've gone from people telling me that 8 is a required minimum and her telling me 4 is the required minimum to hearing here that since it is not compulsory that there is no required minimum so I need to get to the bottom of this..please help
Terra Firma
Banned
1. It is not compulsory. Just highly recommended. How do we know? Because the Prophet PBUH did not mandate it in any hadeeth, nor do any of the madhahib deem it compulsory.
2. There's no opinion out there that supports 4 rakats. 8 rakats is the shortest amount that is supported.
So, yeah, if you pray it, better to pray 8 minimum. If you don't pray it, it's not that big a deal. If you pray 4 rakats, it will be considered nafl salah but won't fulfill the minimum requirements of Taraweeh.
I actually agree with all of these points. Maybe we would have a bit less crazies that way.
Also, no reason to put this in the Ramadan thread.
I'll assume that you mistyped here, because the first point is Kufr Al-Akbar.
Nope.
The Quran is a book written and compiled over a thousand years ago by man (after the prophet's death). It didn't just fall out of the heavens. Humans are not perfect, thus I don't believe that the Quran is inherently perfect.
Again though, this isn't really a discussion for the Ramadan thread.
So i was working out at my gym and started chatting with this dude. Then he told me he was actually fasting and worked out almost everyday after work for 2 hours before going home. And then he had to wait another hour or two before being allowed to eat and drink.
I knew it was Ramadan but i didn't know there were muslims who were working out on top of working a job all day without eating or drinking. That left me speechless.
I get so thirsty while working out. That dude is a true warrior. I felt bad for drinking in front of him but he said he didn't mind. Still .. I put my bottle of water in my backpack. I know that if I was (were?) in his shoes I would be drooling lol
I knew it was Ramadan but i didn't know there were muslims who were working out on top of working a job all day without eating or drinking. That left me speechless.
I get so thirsty while working out. That dude is a true warrior. I felt bad for drinking in front of him but he said he didn't mind. Still .. I put my bottle of water in my backpack. I know that if I was (were?) in his shoes I would be drooling lol
Just so you know, it's the Ijma of the scholars that such person is a disbeliever.
I should clarify that I haven't personally made takfir upon you.
RustyNails
Member
This definitely isn't.
Yup, my little brother will still run or workout during ramadan. I have no idea how he does it. I still go to the gym sometimes, but I wait until after I break my fast.
The Artisan
Member
Who here is a ME fan? I've been wearing my n7 hoodie to the masjid for tarabi
(Tonight will be the second night)
(Tonight will be the second night)
I plan to play the games this summer. Bought the trilogy a year ago and I have yet to play it lol.
Recidivus Crimen
Member
People who work out in Ramadan are just crazy lol
You're in for a treat. Really great games.
Where did you get this idea? There is no minimum nor maximum. The prayers at night are two by two.. is all I found in the hadiths.. Well anywhere.. Meaning you have to pray two rakat each time.
The prophet prayed 11 rakat (8 taraweeh & 3 Witr) regularly; Umar (caliph) settled us on 20.
Terra Firma
Banned
The Prophet PBUH prayed 8. Umar and the sahabas prayed 20. That's why Taraweeh is only considered 8 or 20 by the scholars. Why did the Prophet PBUH pray 8? Why did Umar pray 20? Why not just 2 or 4? Praying in units of 2 shows us the method of prayer and the total amount is shown to us by the amount that was actually practiced.
You're also mistaken if you think 11 rakat are Tarweeh. In that case, Umar and the sahabas prayed 23 because even with 20 rakats, 3 rakats of witr are added on. Not to mention the fact that some people pray 1 rakat of witr.
And that's not even accounting for Imam Malik's opinion of 37 rakats.
Furthermore, those who say 20+3 also believe that the 8 rakats have to do with qiyaam and not Taraweeh. That's why you have scholars arguing about 8 or 20 rakats.
Oh, and the Prophet PBUH did not pray 8 rakats regularly precisely to make sure that the ummah doesn't take the extra salah as obligatory. He would rarely pray Taraweeh before the last 10 days of Ramadhan.
The Artisan
Member
warning: you may fall in love.
I named my shepard Muhammad, coz I wanted him to be Muslim. I'm a PlayStation gamer so it took me a long time to get my hands on Me1 and I got to play it only once. I remember there was one instance where the question of God came up and that's where you basically decide whether your Shepard is an atheist or not. The answer I chose got me: "What's the saying, 'there are no atheists in foxholes'? Yeah, I've been in a lot of fox holes."
Here's Muhammad in Me2:
and in Me3:
my first playthrough of mass effect ever was of femshep in Me2 (that was the first on Ps3) might've been the first big RPG i've ever played. As I stated here, I named my femshep after my grandmother and I liked to think in my head that she was a reincarnation of my grandmother in the future :3 <3
lol well I am crazy, but in regards to working out during ramadan I go after iftar. are you referring to those who go during the fast? or everyone?
the first and second. the third one sucked. -_-
I think the only rule with tarabi as far as compulsion goes is that you have to pray them in 4s. You can't do 2 and call it a night, it has to be by 4s. so 4-8-12-16-20. I'm not entirely sure but that is something that makes sense to me, you know?
I don't think Ashes was calling the 11 rakat tarabi, he was just saying it was 11 rakat total with tarabi & bhitr.
also, doesn't the fact that the prophet did 8 make it sunnah? i don't see how that means 4 doesn't cut it.
I haven't looked at this yet but I have a feeling I won't like what I'll see.
Terra Firma
Banned
The Prophet PBUH didn't pray 4. He prayed 8. Ergo, 8 is enough for fulfillment of that sunnah and not 4. And then there are other scholars who do not see 8 as enough and 20 as the fulfillment as they see the ahadeeth relating to the prayer of the Prophet PBUH as referring to qiyaam and tahajjud and not Taraweeh.
Either way, whether you pray 4 or 8 or 20 or 36, any extra ibadah that is nafl gets the reward of fardh in Ramadhan.
To my mind you've just set up an arbitary minimum without any real justification.
The Artisan
Member
right, the prophet prayed 8 so praying 8 is sunnah. But why would praying 4 not count as anything at all?
Terra Firma
Banned
Uh... what? The Prophet PBUH prayed 8. He didn't pray 2, 4, 6. He prayed 8. Thus, 8 is sunnah. I can't make it any simpler than that.
Praying 4 won't fulfill the sunnah of the Prophet PBUH where he prayed 8. It will still count but won't count as Taraweeh.
Brother, the reason* the mosques in Mecca pray 20 taraweeh** is because they say, the hadiths regarding the Prophet praying 11 rakat nightly prayers regularly (8 taraweeh and 3 Witr) refer to tahajjud (nightly prayers throughout the year)
If this is the case, your reading of the hadith, go against their reading of the hadiths regarding tahajjud, which has a minimum of 2 rakat, where 8 is optimal.
*as far as I know and can tell.
**after being set by the caliph Umar.
I'm pretty sure they want a source m8
Oh I don't think it is a question of distrust. He's far more careful than I, and more typically representive of the ulema. And concerned with the majority position etc..
The Artisan
Member
that's what I'm not getting, here. 8 and up can count as sunnah tarabi. but why does 4 not count as anything at all?
that would help but an explanation would be fine as well. maybe there is some miscommunication.
Terra Firma
Banned
Those scholars that see 8 rakats as Taraweeh refer to the ahadeeth that say that the Prophet PBUH prayed 8 rakats in Ramadhan, not less than that. These are the same scholars that consider Tahajjud and Taraweeh to be the same in Ramadhan, except the Prophet PBUH prayed 8 rakats in Ramadhan.
Those that say 20 is the minimum is where the distinction from Tahajjud comes in.
As for what happens in Makkah, many Salafi Saudis make the excuse that what they're doing in Makkah is inauthentic and simply continuing a preexisting practice. The same is said about the Takbeer-at-tashreeq that are recited during the Eids, where the Salafis say that what is recited in Makkah is beyond what is narrated from the sunnah.
For those who support 8 rakats:
'Aaisha narrated, "He did not pray more than eleven rakahs in Ramadhan or at other times. He would pray four, and do not ask how beautiful and long they were, then he would pray four, and do not ask how beautiful and long they were, then he would pray three. I said, 'O Messenger of Allah, will you sleep before you pray Witr?’ He said, ‘O 'Aaisha, my eyes sleep but my heart does not.'" -from Bukhari and Muslim
From this hadeeth, we know the Prophet PBUH prayed no less than 8 rakats in Ramadhan as far as Taraweeh is concerned.
Those who support 20 raka'ats see this hadeeth as a reference to Tahajjud, not Taraweeh. Evidence for 20 raka'ahs is found here.
And as Ashes said, yes, if you take this hadeeth to refer to Tahajjud, then there IS no minimum, because there is consensus on the fact that there is no minimum for Tahajjud except 2 raka'ats. But if taken in a context of Taraweeh, then a minimum can be derived because any of the ahadeeth that refer to the Prophet PBUH praying Taraweeh (or what some understood to be Taraweeh such as those who use the hadeeth I quoted as evidence for Taraweeh) specify a number, whereas praying outside of Ramadhan, no number is specified (and those who take 20 raka'ats as the number of units in Taraweeh see this hadeeth as a recommended amount if taken in conjunction with other ahadeeth that don't specify an amount).
(I personally believe 20 raka'ats to be the number of raka'ats in Taraweeh)
Where are you getting this idea that 4 does not count at all? It simply does not fulfill the sunnah of 8 rakats Taraweeh, as you have just said. It still does count as nafl ibadah and qiyam-ul-layl and since it is Ramadhan, you get the reward of a fardh act.
The Artisan
Member
I'm wondering why it does not count as 4 rakats of tarabih.
victreeb3l
Member
Craving some cold dates like crazy. And lemonade. Argghhh why am I fat
Terra Firma
Banned
Same as asking why 2 raka'ats don't count as Dhuhr (unless travelling).
The Artisan
Member
Not really. zuhr year round is always 4 rakat sunnah + 4 rakat fard + 2 rakat sunnat. that never changes unless you're traveling like you said, or some other extraneous circumstance.
Terra Firma
Banned
Same thing with Taraweeh. It is 8 raka'ats minimum as we don't have anything that shows a lower number from the ahadeeth with regards to Taraweeh. Only Tahajjud has no minimum specified since you can pray it year round.
The Artisan
Member
you're arguing that 8 rakats is the minimum because the prophet did it, I'm saying that makes 8 rakat sunnat but it shouldn't make 4 rakats not mean it is not tarabih at all.
Terra Firma
Banned
We know that 8 raka'ats is Taraweeh because the Prophet PBUH never prayed less than 8 raka'ats of Taraweeh. Similarly, we know to pray 4 raka'ats of Dhuhr fardh because we know the Prophet PBUH didn't pray less than 4 except when traveling.
In the end, the entire reason that a disagreement exists between scholars with regards to whether Taraweeh is 8 or 20 is because those who say it is 20 do not see 8 raka'ats as fulfilling the minimum amount of Taraweeh and those who say 8 disregard anything past the books of hadeeth.
The Artisan
Member
Okay, I think I get what you're saying now.
I feel so unproductive during this Ramadhan:
Sahoor -> Too sleepy to do anything
Noon -> Hungry and thirst distract me from anything that is not gaming
Evening -> Full belly makes me lazy doing anything besides prayer
and the cycle goes on D:
Anyway, Ramadhan Mubarak to everyone here.
Sahoor -> Too sleepy to do anything
Noon -> Hungry and thirst distract me from anything that is not gaming
Evening -> Full belly makes me lazy doing anything besides prayer
and the cycle goes on D:
Anyway, Ramadhan Mubarak to everyone here.
With all due respect, I'm going through the hadiths and I see the prophet not leading prayers some nights so as to not make it compulsory, then saying pray as much as you want the nightly prayers and on other occasions, praying 20 himself etc..
Allah is the best judge, but nowhere is there a minimum standard nor maximum nor a set standard 'till Umar. You're filling in the gaps with your additional 'match' the prophet for it to be counted as sunnah, at 8, when people pray 20 raakats not only in the mosques of Mecca & Medina but around the world, as they see that as the most appropriate, arguing against 8 being right.
One of the reasons the prophet didn't want to set it as a regularly prayer in Ramadan - so it doesn't become compulsory - is because he thought it would be difficult for people. And isn't that why we are being asked the same question? Not only do you go against the spirit of this, you say if he prays taraweeh, there is a chance it won't be counted at all! (count as taraweeh)
Lots of people are not confident in the hadiths that declare 8 rakats, but you're quite confident at setting the minimum at 8 and/but ideally 20.
I think you have heard my point of view three times now. And I have heard your point of view three times. & as neither of us is now likely to see eye to eye, we should shake hands and leave the matter to Allah (swt).
Allah is the best judge, but nowhere is there a minimum standard nor maximum nor a set standard 'till Umar. You're filling in the gaps with your additional 'match' the prophet for it to be counted as sunnah, at 8, when people pray 20 raakats not only in the mosques of Mecca & Medina but around the world, as they see that as the most appropriate, arguing against 8 being right.
One of the reasons the prophet didn't want to set it as a regularly prayer in Ramadan - so it doesn't become compulsory - is because he thought it would be difficult for people. And isn't that why we are being asked the same question? Not only do you go against the spirit of this, you say if he prays taraweeh, there is a chance it won't be counted at all! (count as taraweeh)
Lots of people are not confident in the hadiths that declare 8 rakats, but you're quite confident at setting the minimum at 8 and/but ideally 20.
I think you have heard my point of view three times now. And I have heard your point of view three times. & as neither of us is now likely to see eye to eye, we should shake hands and leave the matter to Allah (swt).
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