Edit: Not going to get myself banned.
Here's a more specific video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjBCfHznM-o
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*EID MUBARAK!* RAMADAN 2015 |OT| Come with me if you want to fast
- Thread starter RustyNails
- Start date
- Status
Here's a more specific video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjBCfHznM-o
Night_Knight
Unconfirmed Member
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irfaanator
Banned
kinda know how you feel lol. my parents are from kashmir.
Hmm yeah I've noticed that gossiping is kinda part of be Pakistani culture (in my area in the U.S.). My mom tells me some of the stuff people say and it's quite annoying. Shame culture is a big thing too, which really pisses me off.
What I've done is isolate myself from the label "Pakistani" and leaned towards "Pakistani American" with an emphasis on American. Whenever people ask me where I come from, I just say New York, which throws them off lolol. I never say mention anything about Pakistan unless directly asked. I rarely wear any of the Pakistani-ware since it just feels foreign on me. I can speak Urdu though I always talk in English or a mix. Only thing I'll stand by in Pakistani culture is the cuisine since it's pretty amazing.
The Artisan
Member
dunno what 1RM 5x5 means dude. but the light-eating iftar then working sounds like not such a bad idea. I can't do that though because it takes me forever to eat and I want to get home and sleep as much as possible.
I just take an hour rest after eating iftar and then go around 10. But this latest time I felt nauseated while drinking my protein shake. And it's pretty necessary to drink that after working out so I guess I just have to take it slowly.
definitely not after tarabih lol since it has been established that it is not compulsory i'm just gonna not do it except for the full 20 on fridays and saturdays. i also missed a zuhr so far this month oversleeping from a nap.
as for where I find the energy...I just want to maintain the little muscle mass that I have.
pretty much same here, yeah. I also have a gut and I'm hoping Ramadan can gimme an edge on getting rid of it lol
huh?
Same reaction here. You would think that members of ISIS who are killing muslims, would be more toxic to the muslim community than those "evil" secular and liberal muslims.
The Artisan
Member
I guess I missed out on some discussion on this thread coz I don't even know who these people are that are being referred to.
I mean, I am obviously not perfect, I quit smoking marijuana but I liked to smoke it a lot, I've drank alcohol a few times and I can let go of that that's never been an issue but marijuana and its practical purpose is a struggle (
(I wanted to use the j word here, but honestly, I'm quite afraid of using it)
RustyNails
Member
It is not different from Indian culture, the gossiping, the casual racism and not happy to see others succeed. I blame the Indian dramas for some of that. What I do is I try to improve and change our culture at home instead of completely foregoing it. My wife who is US born but ethnically Indian used terms that were racially offensive in native language, but she used them out of ignorance and didn't know what they actually meant. I have corrected her on that. We also do not backbite or try to get to bottom of why our relatives are having problems etc. I'll be teaching the same values to my son and hopefully we'll keep the best parts of our culture: Food, clothes, respect for elders, music, history and let go of darker parts.
victreeb3l
Member
All the gossip talk makes me think about this image.
Kinda on the same boat as you Rusty. Keep the good (food, music, clothes, some of the history, lungis, bata sandals) and leave the dark parts. While I strongly identify with the american part of my nationality, I still have the pull and desire to improve and change the culture as well.
Yeah, my reaction as well. I dont even wanna know...
Kinda on the same boat as you Rusty. Keep the good (food, music, clothes, some of the history, lungis, bata sandals) and leave the dark parts. While I strongly identify with the american part of my nationality, I still have the pull and desire to improve and change the culture as well.
Yeah, my reaction as well. I dont even wanna know...
There was no real discussion, just that one guy ranting about the dangerous liberal youth. He seems to be concerned with Muslim women openly supporting LGBT rights, feminism and transgenderism and said that these claims are not compatible with Islam. In his words: this liberal and secular culture is more toxic than ISIS. Honestly I didn't want to say anything about that at first but I can't see where this is supposed to be oppositional to Islam.
I mean they want to help the LGBT community to have the same rights in the state, they're not forcing that dude to become gay. It doesn't matter what you personally think of transgender, accepting their place in the community and giving them the rights everbody has is not against Islam. Their existence is not impairing your belief.
We all want to live in a world which grants equal rights to everybody since we need a well functioning society. Atheists, Muslims, Christians, people with different ethnicities, people with different sexualities - all of them are living in one country and we should treat everybody with respect even when their lifestyle isn't appealing to us (as long as they're not harming others with it of course).
On the other hand you got the members of ISIS. An ignorant bunch of people killing off everybody without any sense of true belief in Islam. The statement that they're better than liberal and secular Muslims...it's just false and disrespectful honestly.
As for you Artisan: I hope that you'll be able to resists your urge. I'm not judging you, we all have to deal with our own faults somehow but nevertheless good luck!
RustyNails
Member
I should clarify. I don't have a distaste for the culture or anything like that. I drift away mainly because it just feels right for some reason; it's more natural given the circumstances. It's really nothing to worry about, tbh. I tend to be very well respected in the community, I guess, so I don't think my stance is detrimental in any way. And yeah, it would be awesome if I could change the Pakistani culture in my area (Northern Pittsburgh, PA), though I'm only a 19 year old college undergrad. I really can't do anything about it lol.
I got to be honest here. Whenever I hold the door for the average American, I'm usually thanked, though with Desi people, this is usually not the case. Wtf is this? I know this is minor but still, it's odd. O_0 0_o
BarryWake, I want to high-five you. Nicely said.
OttomanScribe
Member
I guess what I am trying to say is that no one is 'acultural', not in general and certainly not in terms of their practice of Islam. We all have 'culture' it is just about the level to which we recognise it as such.
As to secular liberalism, I think that the point being made (I wouldn't use either LGBT or women Imams as these are not existential threats but rather the kind of thing that gets people talking) is that the adoption of specifically liberal norms is far more of an existential threat than schizmatic movements like IS. The adoption of the language of liberalism by Muslims is so commonplace as to be invisible.
Recidivus Crimen
Member
Speaking of cultures. Does anyone wear clothing from different cultures than their own? I love wearing thawbs especially the ones with collars and cuffs, even worn them to the shops lol. Also I generally wear a sarong when I'm at home. Although it gets awkward answering the door sometimes 
What are the temperatures there like, akhee?Signing in to join the rest of you in enjoying this holy month
Here Oman the fasting hours are not much it is just the heat makes me thirsty other than that it's all good
I guess it comes down to what we define culture as.
EGOMON
Member
I play everyday there is no harm to have fun in Ramdhan while doing the usual prayers and reading Quran i really love Ramdhan i feel spirited
EGOMON
Member
It ranges between 35 and 45 degree in mid-day
And i work inside office all day but still feel thirsty when i drive back home at the end of the day but Alhamdullah i feel satisfied
Why do you think you will get banned?
edit: by that I mean you're going to get a lot more leniency from your fellow debaters in this thread at least. Talking about Islam, our identity, our worries, fears, etc in a changing world, well that all falls within the scope of Ramadan. If not attached at the limb.
Edit: Please do explain your thoughts, rather than relying on us to watch hour long videos. I did you the courtesy of watching the nearly half an hour long video in your last post, which had two minutes of the thing you discussed and twenty minutes on selling the authors ideas at a book promotion event.
Edit: It's Ramadan, so I just thought I'd watch this anyway. So I have watched 30 minutes and these are my thoughts on what I have seen thus far. Several times he has talked of civil liberties being overridden and abused in so called free societies such as in the US, for example Guantanamo Bay. That merely implies that the so called liberties of the US are not as free nor as universal as they claim to be. This says nothing on whether secular liberalism is a good idea or not - just that its core principles are not being all that equally applied in some societies. He says he is more free in Malaysia to speak without the threat of being put on a government black list or detained, it means that in some ways Malaysia is freer than the US.
The other main thing is this idea of erosion of religion in society. Basically popularity of ideas. Again he cites societies such as the US, where he experiences harassment due to being Muslim, and not being allowed to pray anyway in public 'freely'. Whereas in Malaysia, he is. So Islamic religious freedom is triumphant in Malaysia over US.
I hope you see the pattern emerging here. Most of these examples aren't pointing out flaws in secular liberalism, but to specific flaws in an anti-Islamic or anti-religious society, or an islamaphobic society.
He is about to talk about the reduction of religion to the personal space. He doesn't really. Not yet, anyhow, He talks about the relegation of Islam to within the confines of a civil constitution. What about non-muslims? Asadullah Ali doesn't seem to care all that much about balancing opinions. He doesn't seem to care that this is the fairest solution for all concerned. He's just wants everyone to accept that Islam should be the highest rule in the land. And all should fall under its grace.
There are times where he is saying stuff without attempting to prove it. And just moves on, as if his words are self evident and cannot be challenged. He talks of liberal Islam, and how its not Islam at all just secular liberalism, with Islam attached to it. Then just carries on. No examples. How can this be? Secular liberalism, in this context, separates religion from the state, you can criticise religion if you want to and allow for the freedom of being religious too. Whereas Liberal Islam - forgive me the use of this monolithic sounding term - searches for interpretations and meaning from the holy texts themselves in a modern light. There is a subtle but fundamental difference between the picture represented by Asadullah Ali, and how it actually is.
So he is now going to talk about how radical islamists are not really terrorist; he says he will prove that they are in fact liberal extremists instead.
With all due respect, you should have really thought about posting this video. I hope I haven't misunderstood him, and that he is not going to talk about how ISIS are not Islamic radicals but liberal extremists. To be honest, it is hard to follow him now. And even he is saying that this is going to surprise people .
He starts proving his case by talking about how terrorists are not radicals. Cites many studies. One after the other. Mounting evidence suggests terrorists are not radicals - most don't pray, are religious novices etc.. All true, and stuff that I agree with and have said so on numerous occasions. And lots of gaffers have said this over the years
The second notion is Bin laden talking about retaliation. Talks about him reacting to foreign policy rather than following the Quranic text per say.
I think I know where he is going with this. He may talk about stuff I've talked about before - about the transgression of limits. How modern jihadi want to a return to a time, where most of their actions would be transgressions.
And he just talked about transgressions. I like how our paths are merging when he starts talking about the evidence. I have my source bookmarked:
http://vridar.org/2013/04/25/terror...mists-justify-killing-civilians-even-muslims/
Which borrows from:
peer-reviewed Asian Journal of Social Science 38 (2010) 364-378, “The Alchemy of Martyrdom: Jihadi Salafism and Debates over Suicide Bombings in the Muslim World”, by Mohammed M. Hafez.
It'll be interesting to note whether he refers to this. This is western university type scholarship though, not the ulemma, but I think you were not the poster who had a problem with non-ulemma scholar views.
He says bin laden is not a sheik. And that he was an accountant. And talks about how him and his comrades had their ideas 'firmly rooted in liberal societies.' Went to Secular universities, Kind of forgetting that they left those societies to go live in a cave for their notion of true islam ( a version of islam that forgoes modernity and supposedly goes back to the good old days). But that doesn't seem to matter. And holding nothing that seems to mirror what I would see as liberal secularism. Bin Laden wants all church. All day. Everyday. No? if everything were to be his way. Asadullah Ali said these were young men with 'firmly rooted ideas in liberal societies.' Who here on gaf thinks Bin laden was a feminist?
I think he is losing me again. Like almost entirely. Going to Secular universities don't mean you hold secular liberal citizenships. Especially if you happen to be entirely critical of the western style of living. It's incomprehensible and illogical. Hopefully he is going to tie everything together.
He is now prefacing what he says might offend Muslim Liberals. He says, and I quote:
"I see very little difference between the extremists such as ISIS, and many of the Muslim liberals society.' (38 minute mark)
For which he gets an applause. He stops the clapping, and says he can justify this.
I think he sees what he wants to see.
He says most of the Muslim liberals that he knows support US invasions. So the only difference is that the disenfranchised ISIS want to blow them selves up; whilst Muslim liberals want to send the US in on boats.
With all due respect, a straw man argument to shore up your entire argument based on people you have met personally is weak. Not to mention all the actual major differences espoused by the two camps. I don't mean to embarrass you by stating this. But a heck of lot of liberal non-muslims are anti-war never mind muslim liberals.
Just because Asadula Ali is blind to major differences between those who want women to have more rights such as in property law [Liberal Muslims], and those who are raping and making slaves of women [ISIS], doesn't mean you have to be blind too.
Moving on. He is now talking about Sam Harris debating with Noam Chomsky. Gaf had a thread on this. Ali says Sam Harris talked about US intentions. Chomsky said US devalues life.
From this, Ali says we shouldn't be surprised that ISIS members adopts strategies from where they come from - I don't follow how he says this from the above debate, but I think he is talking about ISIS coming from western societies. Except most come from Iraq... no? civil war iraq. Which in a round about way proves it's all the US and Brits fault, but not in the way Ali suggests.
He is saying ISIS is not islamic. He has different ideas of where ISIS came from. They come from Liberal societies that oppress religion. They will not listen to the scholars who condemn them. Just like the liberal Muslims don't listen to the scholars. What an appalling comparison. One is blind to reason and will chop off your head and means to start a caliphate - the so called Muslim state; the other is open to reason, and looks to challenge the ulema, for a truer fairer society, and hopes for a democratically elected government.
There's huge huge differences. Not just intention, not just by actions, not just philosophically, but on a lot of levels.
Now Ali is talking about how ISIS is not starting a true state. ISIS is one law for all ere go similar to modern secular democracies. [There are many differences. This similarity is very weak in my opinion] True Caliphate would have the Jews unto a law on themselves. Muslims unto a law on themselves. etc.. And Ali says one law for all neutralises values.
This he says is reflected by ISIS in Iraq by their wholesale murder, the raping and pillaging. About shooting people and putting up on youtube. [Note this isn't the barbaric stuff Ali will speak off in the next minute]
Ali says ISIS is very much liberal in that they they practise the only one form of barbarism in our day and age. That is coercing ones values onto others. This person does not know how to reason. And uses very poor examples to lend weight to his argument.
Existential threat to whom? Islam? Freedom of religion is greater in parts of the west than it is in parts of the Muslim World. If it were not the case then you go against the fundamentals of being liberal.
Forcing people to wear the hijab removes the individual's choice to do so freely.
To counter that, France banning the veil is also illiberal for example.
Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]
Something akin to ISIS is bad today. And will forever be bad always in all its guises. Whether that's brutality amidst war crimes from Muslim extremists or secular democracies.
edit: I get the feeling you are compounding ideas that erupt within liberalism with liberalism itself. Which is not fair. There are many places where you would draw lines on liberty -. But equality need not be one of them. & by extension secular liberalism.
This reminds me a bit about misconceptions of secularism and atheism. A couple of Ramadans ago, I was asked to define my self as being a Muslim in Britain in Europe [How could anyone do that they said?]. And I said, well, then I suppose I'm an European Secular Muslim.
And the person arguing back said, 'so you're atheist then?'
And I said, I think you're a bit confused by what secular means as compared to what atheism means.
ohyouagain
Member
I am really really puzzled by my total lack of appetite or thirst. I assumed this would be the hardest month ever due to the fact that it occurs right around the solstice but I walk around as if these days were totally normal.
I don't even feel something special in the air. I don't feel spirited. Just, somewhat bizarrely, highly motivated. This is the most un-ramadanic Ramadan has ever been for me.
I don't even feel something special in the air. I don't feel spirited. Just, somewhat bizarrely, highly motivated. This is the most un-ramadanic Ramadan has ever been for me.
I'm sorry UnPatriot. I cannot in good conscience agree with what you say. I've watched the entire one hour long video. You chose to present as a defence for your stance a man who lacks the ability to reason well and constantly cites poor examples to support his argument.
Asadula Ali has not proved to me that ISIS are liberal extremists - at best his suppositions are the widest stretches. I repeat my previous post, that just because he is blind to major differences between those who want women to have more rights such as in property law [Liberal Muslims], and those who are raping and making slaves of women [ISIS], doesn't mean you have to be blind too. Those are major differences. Yet he claims he does not see any differences.
He says ISIS come from Liberal societies that oppress religion - literally come from as in the US etc. They will not listen to the scholars who condemn them. Just like the liberal Muslims don't listen to the scholars. I say this is an appalling comparison, and demonstrates his poor reasoning. I think he just forgets that they come mostly from Iraq.
One is blind to reason and will chop off your head and means to start a caliphate - the so called Muslim state; the other is open to reason, and looks to challenge the ulema, for a truer fairer society, and hopes for a democratically elected government. Do I have to tell you which is which here? There's huge huge differences. Not just in intention, not just by actions, not just philosophically, but on a lot of levels.
Ali talks about how ISIS is not starting a true Islamic state. ISIS's caliphate is one law for all ere go similar to modern secular democracies.True Caliphate would have the Jews unto a law on themselves. Muslims unto a law on themselves. etc.. And Ali says one law for all neutralises values. This he says is reflected by ISIS in Iraq by their wholesale murder, the raping and pillaging. About shooting people and putting up on youtube. [Note this isn't the barbaric stuff Ali will speak off in a few paragraphs]
You know ISIS's caliphate isn't similar to secular democracies in every other way right? He compares them on the filmiest thing ever. Would you like me to talk about how they differ? I can in a different post.
Ali says ISIS is very much liberal in that they they practise the only one form of barbarism in our day and age. That is coercing ones values onto others.
Again. This person does not know how to reason. And uses very poor examples to lend weight to his argument.
The only parts where he made sense and then didn't in the next step drag it through mud was the data regarding terrorism. Before his main thesis.
As such you are better off listening to the origins of the best parts of his speech - that data part. Which again, ironically come from the studies done by the western scholarship method (though of course authors can come from anywhere east, middleeast or west) as it exists today. University professors presenting arguments and data. And the peer review system. Studies. And research.
edit: I just wanted to add that I don't mean no disrespect. Sincerely. Even if our opinions differ in the strongest possible way. I'd really rather close the distance between Muslims than create even greater ones.
Asadula Ali has not proved to me that ISIS are liberal extremists - at best his suppositions are the widest stretches. I repeat my previous post, that just because he is blind to major differences between those who want women to have more rights such as in property law [Liberal Muslims], and those who are raping and making slaves of women [ISIS], doesn't mean you have to be blind too. Those are major differences. Yet he claims he does not see any differences.
He says ISIS come from Liberal societies that oppress religion - literally come from as in the US etc. They will not listen to the scholars who condemn them. Just like the liberal Muslims don't listen to the scholars. I say this is an appalling comparison, and demonstrates his poor reasoning. I think he just forgets that they come mostly from Iraq.
One is blind to reason and will chop off your head and means to start a caliphate - the so called Muslim state; the other is open to reason, and looks to challenge the ulema, for a truer fairer society, and hopes for a democratically elected government. Do I have to tell you which is which here? There's huge huge differences. Not just in intention, not just by actions, not just philosophically, but on a lot of levels.
Ali talks about how ISIS is not starting a true Islamic state. ISIS's caliphate is one law for all ere go similar to modern secular democracies.True Caliphate would have the Jews unto a law on themselves. Muslims unto a law on themselves. etc.. And Ali says one law for all neutralises values. This he says is reflected by ISIS in Iraq by their wholesale murder, the raping and pillaging. About shooting people and putting up on youtube. [Note this isn't the barbaric stuff Ali will speak off in a few paragraphs]
You know ISIS's caliphate isn't similar to secular democracies in every other way right? He compares them on the filmiest thing ever. Would you like me to talk about how they differ? I can in a different post.
Ali says ISIS is very much liberal in that they they practise the only one form of barbarism in our day and age. That is coercing ones values onto others.
Again. This person does not know how to reason. And uses very poor examples to lend weight to his argument.
The only parts where he made sense and then didn't in the next step drag it through mud was the data regarding terrorism. Before his main thesis.
As such you are better off listening to the origins of the best parts of his speech - that data part. Which again, ironically come from the studies done by the western scholarship method (though of course authors can come from anywhere east, middleeast or west) as it exists today. University professors presenting arguments and data. And the peer review system. Studies. And research.
edit: I just wanted to add that I don't mean no disrespect. Sincerely. Even if our opinions differ in the strongest possible way. I'd really rather close the distance between Muslims than create even greater ones.
cantona222
Member
Thats right and happy to!
Well i was in a car accident a few months back, and ended up in hospital for a few days just to recover. The guy in the bed next to me was muslim and we ended up just chatting and becoming quite good friends. We were talking between ourselves and he was telling me about his background and his religious beliefs - one evening when his family came in he had his wife bring in a spare copy of the Qurʾan for me.
Over the next few days i read through and felt quite moved while reading it. So much of it resonated with me. I asked him loads of questions which he was more than happy to answer for me as best he could. He said that we'd meet up after coming out of hospital and he'd bring me to his local mosque to meet the brothers and they could better answer any questions I had. I spent some time reading more online once i got home and watching some videos online of people giving Dawah. We met up a few weeks later and he brought me, after meeting everyone and feeling very welcome I took shahada that day. It seems like a quick decision but it felt like the right one. Ever since then i've made some great friends in the community who during Ramadan have been really amazing, inviting me to Iftar with them and such.
It's been a great experience so far and i feel like it's the best decision I ever made
That's a great story. I wish you the best
HassanJamal
Member
One week done, three weeks left. Already used to fasting and the hunger, my only problem this Ramadan my sleeping pattern is ruined. My current solution, sleep earlier.
The Artisan
Member
well, I kinda want to since he was clearly calling out people in this thread.
"dangerous liberal youth" what's that got to do with us though? Unless it was someone else who started the debate I never said anything on my opinion about LGBT rights or the like.
Hm. All I will say here coz I don't wanna really make matters worse is that unless someone is clearly a very horrible person, it is not in our place to judge people that are different from us. Everybody has their problems, their highlights, and their ups and downs. But nothing about someone's makeup should really affect when you come across them.
And it is so disgusting, the things I see about them every damn day on the news. Their existence isn't helping us and it is further making us look like the worst people in the world.
Thank you man. Good luck with whatever day to day struggles you have as well =]
tbt...I really wish I could just start doing it again. in moderation, of course.
RustyNails
Member
So I skipped carbs completely last night for suhoor as a means of trying out keto diet (no roti). Amazingly I didn't feel any hunger pangs in the morning while going to work...I'm gonna try it again tomorrow. I also don't feel sleepy.
OttomanScribe
Member
Islam isn't under threat, but Muslims are under threat of losing their Islam.
The very fact that you frame things in terms of 'choice' points towards this discussion of liberalism. Liberalism is birthed from industrial, colonial states. The state of affairs in the wider world, like liberalism, cannot be extricated from the history which formed its womb.
It also isn't necessarily the case that I have more freedom of religion in the West than in the rest of the world, rather there are some things which are easier and some things which are harder.
I'm not clear on what you're saying here. Do you mean within liberal democracies?
I teach classes in the history of ideas at a tertiary level, rest assured I'm not confused about terms so you can stop patronizing me, thanks.
RustyNails
Member
victreeb3l
Member
Nice! What did you eat? Also, Keto flu will suck but since you're used to fasting, you should get over it quickly. Its a rite of passage.
Yup, I love how you don't get that gross food coma drowsy feeling on keto. Paratha naps, while incredibly satisfying when you're about to pass out, made me feel like dookie afterwards. Just make sure you drink plenty of water before sehri.
RustyNails
Member
Mitthi Dal (sweet lentil) and ground chicken kheema. It actually went really well together. Also skipped rice for dinner and got a bowl of Haleem instead.
Nice! What did you eat? Also, Keto flu will suck but since you're used to fasting, you should get over it quickly. Its a rite of passage.
Yup, I love how you don't get that gross food coma drowsy feeling on keto. Paratha naps, while incredibly satisfying when you're about to pass out, made me feel like dookie afterwards. Just make sure you drink plenty of water before sehri.
Edit: Sudesh Bhosle GOAT
Terra Firma
Banned
Daal has quite a lot of carbs. It was pretty tough to give it up when I was doing keto.
I had to limit onion use as well...which REALLY sucks when you like desi foods. Can't make any decent salans without onions. Also had to switch to Greek yogurt for cooking (<7g of carbs per 1/4 cup!).
victreeb3l
Member
Sweet. Watch out for haleem, it has a lot of carbs depending on how you prepare it. Same with daal.
My Fitness Pal is actually pretty great for tracking carbs for desi food. If you want to go full Keto, try to keep your carbs under 20g for the first few weeks until you're in ketosis,
RustyNails
Member
Actually this "Muslims are under threat losing their Islam" stuff strongly reminds me of the discourses produced in the West. Just exchange "Muslims" with "We" and "Islam" with "values" and put an agenda against somebody behind it (the West likes to use the middle east or Russia).
The question is though: which Islam of the Muslims is under a threat according to you? It's the type of Islam which is correct according to you and yes maybe the most important scholars of Islam and so on but still it's your belief. The people who are "under a threat" don't want to live according to this "true" Islam. They won't consider it a threat and even when most of the people I've encountered tried to change the people to follow what they thought was the only true way of Islam, it never worked. You can't force the people to live according to something they don't want to. Even when it works and you manage to force the people to secure this Islam from these "threats" and to follow the rules of the "true" Islam, is this what you consider true belief? People pretending to be Muslims because they're forced to but not really believing in Islam?
There will be less Muslims in most of the Muslim countries in a few years just like the decline of Christians, people with jewish beliefs and so on - yes, but this shouldn't be considered as a threat. The important thing is that you believe in whatever you want to believe in. You won't benefit from forcing everyone to believe in the true Islam.
Regarding your part with the liberalism as an ideology emerging from the colonial states: there is a true base but generally your logic is flawed. Yes, liberty isn't what it should be like, because it began as a discourse to maintain the dominance of the upper classes. Over the years it became involved with colonialism. There are certainly good theories out there describing this (e.g. Edward Said's Orientalism), so nothing new here. But this doesn't mean that you should abolish liberalism just because it had an certain agenda. The idea that everyone should be treated equal isn't getting bad because some "liberal" states won't give you your full rights to practise your religion. Yeah you have more freedom concerning practising Islam in Malaysia, but does this make Malaysia a more ethic place in general? Look at the freedom house index, look at the freedom of speech, look at how certain people are treated there. Liberalism does not mean to restrict ones religion but this means that this state is not following the core elements of it when it forbids the freedom of religion. What you're criticising is the state and not liberalism itself. The problem is that the states which allow you to live your religion restrict the freedom of others to live according to what they believe in, which means that it's the same shit the West does just the other way round.
The question isn't whether this Eastern country or this Western one is better, it's about how is it possible to create a society in which none of us has to face restrictions and liberalism serves some answers at least even when it was never intended to live up to it's own premises.
Ashes, I think I find the arguments of Asadullah more convincing than yours. Look him up if you don't know who he is.
If you can't see that secular liberalism is washing out Religion, then I'm not sure what to say to you. Secular liberalism has functioned to subjugate and domesticate religion until they are hollow shells of their former selves.
ISIS will go and pass through like an arrow passes through its target. The effect of the liberal mindset will linger; washing away the Imaan of the Muslims.
Islam supports pluralism, but it doesn't support secular pluralism. Research how the Prophet (saw) dealt with pluralism in Medina.
Edit: Also, I deleted a big part of my post because it was better not to step on any toes with my LGBT comments.
If you can't see that secular liberalism is washing out Religion, then I'm not sure what to say to you. Secular liberalism has functioned to subjugate and domesticate religion until they are hollow shells of their former selves.
ISIS will go and pass through like an arrow passes through its target. The effect of the liberal mindset will linger; washing away the Imaan of the Muslims.
Islam supports pluralism, but it doesn't support secular pluralism. Research how the Prophet (saw) dealt with pluralism in Medina.
Edit: Also, I deleted a big part of my post because it was better not to step on any toes with my LGBT comments.
OttomanScribe
Member
So replace all the important words then?
I don't understand what you're saying here. I think that there is overwhelmingly a concern for orthodoxy and legitimacy in practice amongst Muslims, but even those concerned with orthodoxy find their expression of that same ideal stymied by a mess of liberal language. Ironically language concerned with expression 'on individual terms' is ultimately pushed by external forces, making that expression on individual terms ultimately futile.
Who is talking about force?
I don't believe this to be the case, I think that the number of Muslims who are actively engaged with their religion is on the rise, it is the type of engagement that we have with the religion that is changing.
If the initial function of an ideology was to maintain dominance, what has changed about that ideology to ultimately remove that function?
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting what you're saying, but to the LGBT thing in particular, I feel like this is less supporting ideas not compatible with Islam and more recognition that ultimately it isn't my place to judge and try to marginalize other human beings that aren't imposing on anyone.
With all due respect, this makes little sense. Can you show the differences between the former and the latter so as to clarify what you mean?
Ha! fair enough.
OttomanScribe
Member
Islam means 'submission to God' and so the concept will continue unchanged regardless. The threat that liberalism poses is not to Islam but rather is Muslims losing their Islam.
The irony being that this isn't Ali's idea. This is from the commentators he quotes [from secular liberal communities]. He says as much.
Ali's own original ideas are that ISIS are 'liberal extremists.' He picked out one similarity between ISIS and secular liberal democracies, which is plurality under law. And that's it.
He called this the only barbarism existing today.
How can ISIS be liberal let alone liberal extremists, if they don't hold any liberal values?
edit: I guess they hold one single liberal value - plurality under law (which loses all power & meaning because of how illiberal the laws actually are). But I hope by the strength of your conviction you have more than this.
edit: I've already been told off for sounding patronising, so I just wanted to say that that isn't my intention. I've just never heard anybody discuss ISIS as liberal before. So I'm genuinely curious to hear what you have to say. Regardless of whether it agrees or disagrees in part with Ali. Perhaps you may be seeing something in his overarching argument that I'm missing. And I guess I'd like a second attempt at it or something.
I still don't understand.
Do you mean Muslims risk losing their religion in the form it is today?
RustyNails
Member
Ha ha.
Theological discussion is very much related to Ramadan though.
And doesn't make my stomach grumble.
I swear if you guys complain about people who keep talking about food whilst you're fasting...
Guess I'll see ya guys at Eid. Enjoy your Ramadan!
OttomanScribe
Member
I mean that the foundation of liberalism is a twofold impetus of European imperialism and anti-religious imperatives and so the adoption of the language and narratives of liberalism brings both into the homes and minds of Muslims within the core of Empire.
It can do so precisely because of its claims to universality.
I wrote this after Charlie Hebdo: https://squashingbutterflies.wordpress.com/2015/01/23/cartoon-violence-and-the-violence-of-cartoons/
Here I'm talking about a particular part of liberalism but you get the point.
Let's take it elsewhere. Fasting is hard enough, right? Without making people want to blow their brains out. ha ha.
Gimme two seconds, and I'll post a new thread.
RustyNails
Member
Stick around for samosa discussions! It's not that we want people to leaveHa ha.
Theological discussion is very much related to Ramadan though.
And doesn't make my stomach grumble.
I swear if you guys complain about people who keep talking about food whilst you're fasting...
Guess I'll see ya guys at Eid. Enjoy your Ramadan!
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