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Fighting Game Community || Stream Monster Headquarters

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H

Horseress

Member
CN0tVIRWwAEFzMi.jpg


boss
 
T

Thulius

Member
Anne said:
It, uh, it works like fuzzy defense guys. during blockstun you get one option, outside of blockstun you get another.

The standard way to deal with fuzzy defense is to bait the non-blockstun option with a gap + your option to beat it. They choose DP, you leave a gap and block the DP or make it whiff, they choose a mash you leave a big gap and let the mash whiff or stuff it, etc.

Fuzzy defense is just a thing in its own right you're going to deal with. Somebody is going to be fuzzy mashing you in every game, that is life. The alpha counter OS is no different, it just adds the alpha counter to it. It'll be useful depending on how often you want to alpha counter things while calling out other mix up options. Seems pretty specific and hard to implement to me but it probably has some pretty solid use vs certain situations.

Edit: What does make this one pretty neat is that the option you choose during blockstun is actually not block. I guess with SFV coming it would be a good idea to make a universal write up about how this works to explain "this will all exist in SFV and it's not that scary."
Click to expand...

I get the idea of pressing buttons in gaps, I just don't see how it's any more useful as an alpha counter OS. I could understand if say, SF4 had alpha counters and you were OSing with DP and resetting the situation regardless of which option you get. But in SF5, you either OS a safe special that gets stuffed if they press a button or an unsafe special that gets you murdered if they don't. Doesn't really seem any better than just mashing out a reversal.

I guess the missing piece is how safe alpha counters are on block, because they're definitely not hard to react to. If they're anything less than even it just seems like throwing meter away for nothing.
 
4

4r5

Member
Safe jumps are possible due to the startup of a reversal, or the lack of landing recovery.

Hypothetical example:
-DP with 2f of startup, and goes active on 3rd frame.
-Universal 1f landing recovery on all jumping attacks.

Frame 1: First frame of DP // jumping attack active frame
Frame 2: Second frame of DP // touch ground, one frame of landing recovery
Frame 3: DP is now active // landing recovery is over, DP is blocked

Safe jumps are possibly when LandingRecovery is less than ReversalStartup.
Safe jumps are not possible when LandingRecovery is greater than or equal to ReversalStartup.

**Here, I'm using "Startup" as in actual startup frames. As oppose to the convenient "Startup" as 'time-to-hit' commonly used in framedata tables.
 
D

DunpealD

Member
Anne said:
It's kind of an OS but I mean, it's a part of fighting games that those will exist, and it's really unreasonable to expect it to be eliminated in a traditional 2D game.

Also yeah variable wake up timing helps this but yeah.
Click to expand...

Well the quote says let no OS live. They also said it is all about commitment.
In a sense it is an OS, since it covers more than one option.

4r5 said:
Safe jumps are possible due to the startup of a reversal, or the lack of landing recovery.

Hypothetical example:
-DP with 2f of startup, and goes active on 3rd frame.
-Universal 1f landing recovery on all jumping attacks.

Frame 1: First frame of DP // jumping attack active frame
Frame 2: Second frame of DP // touch ground, one frame of landing recovery
Frame 3: DP is now active // landing recovery is over, DP is blocked

Safe jumps are possibly when LandingRecovery is less than ReversalStartup.
Safe jumps are not possible when LandingRecovery is greater than or equal to ReversalStartup.

**Here, I'm using "Startup" as in actual startup frames. As oppose to the convenient "Startup" as 'time-to-hit' commonly used in framedata tables.
Click to expand...

This is also why there are still safe jumps in SFIV, since landing recovery with an attack is 2 frames.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
C

call_kotaku

Member
You should be permanently invincible on wakeup until you actually press a button, or the opponent moves atleast half a screen away.

It's about time someone made a fighting game about true honorable fighting. Also no throws.
 
A

Anne

Member
Thulius said:
I get the idea of pressing buttons in gaps, I just don't see how it's any more useful as an alpha counter OS. I could understand if say, SF4 had alpha counters and you were OSing with DP and resetting the situation regardless of which option you get. But in SF5, you either OS a safe special that gets stuffed if they press a button or an unsafe special that gets you murdered if they don't. Doesn't really seem any better than just mashing out a reversal.

I guess the missing piece is how safe alpha counters are on block, because they're definitely not hard to react to. If they're anything less than even it just seems like throwing meter away for nothing.
Click to expand...

Not saying it is super useful, but it is neat and follows the same rules. The type of situation it will be useful in will be situations where somebody is trying to really force you into blocking and you wanna mash safer and while choosing to get out of whatever that blockstun situation is. That's, um, really specific but really plausible.

It's safer than just mashing because it assumes that you're delaying your mash to line up with the blockstun/mix up timing of a specific situation. It's also assuming the alpha counter is a relatively safe option with OS timing in that situation. It forces them to take consideration with timings, opens up other holes, etc.
 
H

Holy Order Sol

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
I still don't get why some players seem to loathe all option-selects and moan about every last one of them. I might have a different perspective on this being a software developer, but at risk of sounding condescending, it still strikes me as an opinion that you can only have if you don't really understand how video games work in the first place.

Using one identical set of inputs to cover multiple known situations isn't even remotely exclusive to fighting games.
Click to expand...

"Option select" has merely become another buzzword.
 
D

DunpealD

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
I still don't get why some players seem to loathe all option-selects and moan about every last one of them. I might have a different perspective on this being a software developer, but at risk of sounding condescending, it still strikes me as an opinion that you can only have if you don't really understand how video games work in the first place.

Using one identical set of inputs to cover multiple known situations isn't even remotely exclusive to fighting games.
Click to expand...

Well even if you know how it works doesn't mean you can't loathe them.
Hating all OS might be a tad excessive.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Sixfortyfive said:
I still don't get why some players seem to loathe all option-selects and moan about every last one of them. I might have a different perspective on this being a software developer, but at risk of sounding condescending, it still strikes me as an opinion that you can only have if you don't really understand how video games work in the first place.

Using one identical set of inputs to cover multiple known situations isn't even remotely exclusive to fighting games.
Click to expand...
Because they take away from the rock/paper/scissors part of the game by allowing you to cover multiple options. From a philosophical design standpoint: they're abominations.

I totally understand that they're very difficult to get rid of from a systems view and don't blame players in the least for using them- use all the tools you can. It'd just be better if they could be totally stamped out.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
But I like playing rock and paper at the same time.

One-button throws in particular are the best.
 
T

Thulius

Member
Anne said:
Not saying it is super useful, but it is neat and follows the same rules. The type of situation it will be useful in will be situations where somebody is trying to really force you into blocking and you wanna mash safer and while choosing to get out of whatever that blockstun situation is. That's, um, really specific but really plausible.

It's safer than just mashing because it assumes that you're delaying your mash to line up with the blockstun/mix up timing of a specific situation. It's also assuming the alpha counter is a relatively safe option with OS timing in that situation. It forces them to take consideration with timings, opens up other holes, etc.
Click to expand...

Makes sense, bold is the part that's nebulous though. I can't imagine something like Nash's teleport reversal is safe to throw out against jabs/shorts, but more standard ones like Chun might be fine? Or maybe they're all unsafe on block and this whole thing is pointless! Curious to see whether or not it becomes a thing.
 
Z

Zissou

Member
Some OS's are fine. One button throw OS makes instant sense to anybody- players realize they get the normal if they're out of range. OS stuff that's both incredibly un-obvious, difficult, and are necessary to progress past a certain skill threshold are the ones that are generally undesirable, IMO.
 
C

call_kotaku

Member
Are there OSes in rising thunder? I haven't followed the game too closely

isn't a big part of rising thunder's system design that OSes are less prevalent because it's less likely for overlapping inputs giving different results depending on the circumstance?
 
A

Anne

Member
kirblar said:
Because they take away from the rock/paper/scissors part of the game by allowing you to cover multiple options. From a philosophical design standpoint: they're abominations.

I totally understand that they're very difficult to get rid of from a systems view and don't blame players in the least for using them- use all the tools you can. It'd just be better if they could be totally stamped out.
Click to expand...

I option select constantly and it's still an RPS game where I need to know what my opponent is doing. This generalization about them is completely false.

Some OSes(notably offensive OS in SF4) can create catch alls but that is actually incredibly rare these days.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
OSes are bad because they allow you to make one less decision in your play. Giving players full control and forcing them to make decisions is the best way to go. Not all OSes are equal, though. Some are terrible, and some are mundane.
 
S

Sayad

Member
Not sure if this is widely known yet, but TK aerial special attacks are still possible in SFV! If not this might be worth making a small video about, Karst!

For Chun, normal TK>K motion doesn't work for instant air lightning legs, but ending the motion with forward after the jump(ie, 23696,K) allow the move to come out as low as possible.
With this, Chun can combo her instant air MK lightning legs into standing MP which is pretty useful, but it's not an overhead.
 
A

Anne

Member
Karsticles said:
OSes are bad because they allow you to make one less decision in your play. Giving players full control and forcing them to make decisions is the best way to go. Not all OSes are equal, though. Some are terrible, and some are mundane.
Click to expand...

Again, the same false generalization lol
 
P

Producer

Member
Sayad said:
Not sure if this is widely known yet, but TK aerial special attacks are still possible in SFV! If not this might be worth making a small video about, Karst!

For Chun, normal TK>K motion doesn't work for instant air lightning legs, but ending the motion with forward after the jump(ie, 23696,K) allow the move to come out as low as possible.
With this, Chun can combo her instant air MK lightning legs into standing MP which is pretty useful, but it's not an overhead.
Click to expand...

This tech has been known to Chun players. People expect it to be patched out, or maybe it already has been, but i don't think its some OP tech that needs removing.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Anne said:
Again, the same false generalization lol
Click to expand...
Why not unleash your full brilliance with a "lolno"?

The very IDEA of an option select is to cover multiple options. By definition, they remove aspects of consideration. That's what an option select does. It doesn't cover everything, but it has to cover at least two different options, and hence reduce the number of aspects to consider by at least 1.
 
A

Anne

Member
Karsticles said:
Why not unleash your full brilliance with a "lolno"?

The very IDEA of an option select is to cover multiple options. By definition, they remove aspects of consideration. That's what an option select does. It doesn't cover everything, but it has to cover at least two different options, and hence reduce the number of aspects to consider by at least 1.
Click to expand...

That's like incredibly basic thinking though. An OS is going to cover a certain aspect of options in a given situation. Yeah, it covers multiple things. So when you encounter an OS that covers options in the situation you're creating, you alter your thinking to create a situation that the OS will fail in and do that. Instead of saying, "Oh they cover multiple options, situation is fucked" you can be way smarter and say "that OS covered this set of options, let's create a different set for them to deal with that covers that OS."

This is fighting games 101. You encounter something that is beating your current options, you think about how to beat it, you figure it out and change up your options. It's not about covering guesses, it's about understanding the game and the situation in front of you. That's the critical thinking leap that people who just say "OSes only remove options and are bad" are completely missing.

You know when an OS is bad? When it covers so many options that it actually is overwhelming or can't be answered. Those, again, are rare and are usually more of an engine flaw than anything. Other than that OSes are just parts of fighting games that are there you have to accept as how it works and work with, instead of just saying "This thing is bad because it doesn't work with how I think about and play the game."
 
S

Sayad

Member
miku the prodigy said:
This tech has been known to Chun players. People expect it to be patched out, or maybe it already has been, but i don't think its some OP tech that needs removing.
Click to expand...
It's not OP but it's very useful, avoid low attacks and could lead to decent damage(255 without meter). I guess people expect it to be patched out because it was obvious they went out of their way to prevent TK attacks!
 
D

darkblade77

Member
OSes are fundamentally an engine flaw from the beginning, not just ones that remove all other options.

Just because OSes don't always eliminate decision-making doesn't mean they still don't flatten the remaining possible decisions to make. That is fundamentally what they exist to do and why they're useful in the first place. The more relevant they are to a game, the more they damage whatever design intent was behind its system. (unless OSes themselves were intended from inception, which is more or less impossible to do from scratch properly)

If you're designing a fighting game, you're not going to be able to map out exactly which interactions in a given offensive/defensive situation are guaranteed viable. Considering that, something that outright removes options despite how it changes the viability of others is not a desirable outcome. You don't design individual options with the intent of the player not having to decide between them, that defeats the point.

That's why even if an OS turns out 'allright', as in it can be dealt with, it's still undesirable. There is no interaction created by an OS that a designer could not just create themselves in the same system without one, and OSes fundamentally remove possible interactions.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Zissou said:
Made a video about the v-reversal OS thing.
Click to expand...
Incredible song.

Anne said:
That's like incredibly basic thinking though. An OS is going to cover a certain aspect of options in a given situation. Yeah, it covers multiple things. So when you encounter an OS that covers options in the situation you're creating, you alter your thinking to create a situation that the OS will fail in and do that. Instead of saying, "Oh they cover multiple options, situation is fucked" you can be way smarter and say "that OS covered this set of options, let's create a different set for them to deal with that covers that OS."

This is fighting games 101. You encounter something that is beating your current options, you think about how to beat it, you figure it out and change up your options. It's not about covering guesses, it's about understanding the game and the situation in front of you. That's the critical thinking leap that people who just say "OSes only remove options and are bad" are completely missing.

You know when an OS is bad? When it covers so many options that it actually is overwhelming or can't be answered. Those, again, are rare and are usually more of an engine flaw than anything. Other than that OSes are just parts of fighting games that are there you have to accept as how it works and work with, instead of just saying "This thing is bad because it doesn't work with how I think about and play the game."
Click to expand...
You're doing an amazing job attributing opinions to me that aren't mine. I just said that it's better not to have OSes than it is to have OSes, and I would love to hear an argument from you, or anyone else, as to how OSes IMPROVE a game.

It really pisses me off when people like you assume that just because I recognize OSes are bad, I must not do anything to combat them. I abuse the hell out of OSes when I can. I do think critically. I can do all of that and STILL think OSes are bad mechanics. Get your stick out of your ass.
 
A

Anne

Member
Karsticles said:
Incredible song.


You're doing an amazing job attributing opinions to me that aren't mine. I just said that it's better not to have OSes than it is to have OSes, and I would love to hear an argument from you, or anyone else, as to how OSes IMPROVE a game.

It really pisses me off when people like you assume that just because I recognize OSes are bad, I must not do anything to combat them. I abuse the hell out of OSes when I can. I do think critically. I can do all of that and STILL think OSes are bad mechanics. Get your stick out of your ass.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying you don't use or combat them. Your reasoning to why they are bad though is the same line of reasoning that lands you on Scrub Quotes. It's false and untrue and has a lot of basis in willing ignorance.
 
I

irfaanator

Banned
Holy Order Sol said:
Does any character in SFV currently have a non-instant invincible/armored command grab?
Click to expand...

the three contenders would be birdie/necalli/rmika and I'm not sure about any of them. I believe birdie's ex jump towards grab isnt invincible or armored. Not sure about his spd

Anne said:
I'm not saying you don't use or combat them. Your reasoning to why they are bad though is the same line of reasoning that lands you on Scrub Quotes. It's false and untrue and has a lot of basis in willing ignorance.
Click to expand...

damn.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Anne said:
I'm not saying you don't use or combat them. Your reasoning to why they are bad though is the same line of reasoning that lands you on Scrub Quotes. It's false and untrue and has a lot of basis in willing ignorance.
Click to expand...
I am completely convinced by your non-argument against my "false and untrue" opinion. Also, by telling me what I should be doing, you absolutely are insinuating that I am not doing it presently. Who gives a fuck about some idiot's Twitter account? Learn to make an argument and address the points people make.
 
P

Producer

Member
Sayad said:
It's not OP but it's very useful, avoid low attacks and could lead to decent damage(255 without meter). I guess people expect it to be patched out because it was obvious they went out of their way to prevent TK attacks!
Click to expand...

Yeah you're right about that, well its not that big of a deal i guess since she is already pretty good without it.
 
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