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[Kyolux]

I am absolutely not totally dismissing him for asking for more proof. There must be an investigation into this case immediately, of course. I just think that we shouldn't accuse others at naughty dog apart from the individuals involved in sexually harassing David and covering it up until we see proof that other people who work at Naughty Dog are involved. Sorry if I didn't make this clear at first.

I was responding to sense, not you. So....

Spoiler

¯\_(&#12484_/¯

From what I read of what you said, it made a whole lot of sense.

So the sick actions of one person against another in a team of 300 odd is enough to make you not support the rest of the ND teams hard work and go on a boycott? Hmm plenty of fucked up logic in this thread bastardizing the entirety of ND by the actions of one... The Sony HR team who dealt with this can be held more accountable but the whole of Sony? No, I would not grab pitchforks to them as different departments have different HR.

This is an issue bigger than Sony as a company in an industry rife with sexual harassment that needs to be addressed. If you guys think that companies like MS, Nintendo, Ubisoft, EA don't have these problems... Wellll. Only now is anyone getting attention coming forward due to the Weinstein case getting tons of media coverage.

It all depends on ND/Sony's reaction to this, what they say, and more importantly what they'll do about it.

TLoU 2 is years out, so you don't have to worry about boycotts for the time being. They'll be fine without you having to dismiss an harrassment victim.

 

[texhnolyze]

From the looks of it (1000+ posts), is this actually untrue or people trying their hard to defend the harasser?

 

[dan2026]

If Sony really did try to cover up a crime by attempting to buy someone off, I really don't know what to say.

That's fucked. That's massive scandal level fucked.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

Why would he make this up to explain why he left ND?

People seem to be suggesting that this man had been unemployed for 17 months and then thought "who can i make up allegations for from my old work?" just because he noticed a recent trend in the media.

seems like pure cynicism

 

[zelas]

Wonder what will be the response by Sony... if there is any (I hope).

Naughty Dog is my favorite estudio and Druckman one of the most talented people in this industry, It would be sad if he knew about this and never said anything (which I doubt but still..)

What if the victim didn't want it brought up? You don't think it would be sadder for the victim to have been thrust into all of this if they weren't prepared mentally?

You probably shouldn't be speculating about anyone at this stage either.

 

[labaronx]

Why would he make this up to explain why he left ND? It would do more damage to him if this was all a lie considering he went into detail on what Sony's HR did.

Not saying he made it up or is lying. Im saying parts are missing

 

[Surfside]

It's sad that they tried to silence him. Good on him for exposing them. As for sexual harrassers, they will only ever stop when they are caught. That's the sad truth.

 

[wumster3000]

So the sick actions of one person against another in a team of 300 odd is enough to make you not support the rest of the ND teams hard work and go on a boycott? Hmm plenty of fucked up logic in this thread bastardizing the entirety of ND by the actions of one... The Sony HR team who dealt with this can be held more accountable but the whole of Sony? No, I would not grab pitchforks to them as different departments have different HR.

This is an issue bigger than Sony as a company in an industry rife with sexual harassment that needs to be addressed. If you guys think that companies like MS, Nintendo, Ubisoft, EA don't have these problems... Wellll. Only now is anyone getting attention coming forward due to the Weinstein case getting tons of media coverage.

Please don’t try to deflect and defend this. If true, I cannot support this. You have your rules that you live by, I have mine. I appreciate that you shared your opinion and true, all companies go through this. But trying to pay someone off and then fire them? Don’t do this man. I am not going go back and forth about it.

Edit:
People have different moral standards. You see it differently than I do. Maybe I know someone that’s been through this. Maybe I have. You never know.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't quite a few key ND people left the company over the past recent years? I wonder if they had the same awful scenarios.

This seems like horribly unneccesary speculation.

 

[Oneself]

Great that he found the courage to expose his story and eventually the asshole/s responsible for all of this. We might hear more stories from ex-ND/VG employees in the coming days.

 

[shackdaddy836]

Anecdotes are anecdotes, but three times in my life I've seen someone claim sexual harassment to try and get back at someone out of spite. It's very easy for some people to lie about stuff like that.

It hasn't made me cynical and immediately not want to believe people when it happens, but I can see how it could to others. I take the accusation very seriously, and treat the claimed assaulter with suspicion, but I do withhold judgment until I can know for sure.

Also, for what its worth I've been sexually assaulted before. I absolutely take accusations seriously, because its a serious thing and it is VERY hard to come forward about. But I don't let that cloud me from erring on caution over judgment.

This is exactly what I mean. All sexual assault should be treated extremely seriously and the accuser should be treated like a victim until proven otherwise. I'm just saying everyone shouldn't go out on a witch hunt when no evidence has been shown (yes I realize no one was named, but just in general).

I am basing my position off of personal experience and accounts from family members/friends who work in HR (specifically, my Aunt and my buddy from highschool). They simply told me that false accusation actually happen a lot to get back at people/companies (Which is very very unfortunate b/c it only hurts people with legitimate claims). In my case, I was (falsely) blamed for both sexual and physical harassment and this person really tried to destroy my career. It was extremely scary and mentally draining for me and horribly affected my mental state. I broke down crying multiple times during the process and went into depression briefly. Fortunately, I made it through thanks to some interviews, accounts from basically everyone from work (she was aggressive toward everyone but for some reason I got targeted), and an investigation into her past jobs where she apparently accused others of similar things.

Edit: I really hope no one thinks I'm trying to defend the accused person or his potential actions, I was just personally affected by a false accusation and know that people definitely do it. I still suffer a lot from it.

 

[Mechazawa]

From the looks of it (1000+ posts), is this actually untrue or people trying their hard to defend the harasser?

Looking at the past two pages, it stinks of the usual people not wanting to believe victims.

 

[NegativeCero]

If there was ever a time for games journalist to earn that name it's fucking now. I hope someone has the balls to go after this story and exposes the shitheads behind this. It's the only way abusers like Weinstein will ever get their due punishment and hopefully discourages others from following their shitty example.

 

[Ninja Scooter]

While yes, false or malicious accusations of sexual assault/harrasssment could happen, it is statistically quite rare. Sure, it's not impossible, but I sort of err on the side that it's hard as fuck for people (especially men) to come forward with these kinds of things, I find it hard to believe that someone would just willingly bring all of that upon themselves.

 

[sense]

Naughty Dog doesn't need you defending them. They're adults and can make their stance known. They can either tell us themselves that this isn't true or that they don't condone whatever happened to David.

Already been said, but people dismissing this and asking for "more proof or he's a liar" are the reason people are afraid to ever say anything and that just let's more and more people get away with this kind of shit.

I didn’t dismiss the guy and I am just implying to wait for more details before blaming the entire company or boycotting their products......

 

[JuanLatino]

So the sick actions of one person against another in a team of 300 odd is enough to make you not support the rest of the ND teams hard work and go on a boycott? Hmm plenty of fucked up logic in this thread bastardizing the entirety of ND by the actions of one... The Sony HR team who dealt with this can be held more accountable but the whole of Sony? No, I would not grab pitchforks to them as different departments have different HR.

This is an issue bigger than Sony as a company in an industry rife with sexual harassment that needs to be addressed. If you guys think that companies like MS, Nintendo, Ubisoft, EA don't have these problems... Wellll. Only now is anyone getting attention coming forward due to the Weinstein case getting tons of media coverage.

Yep thats a weird logic

Its like stop watching football due the corruption of fifa

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

Yep thats a weird logic

Its like stop watching football due the corruption of fifa

isnt it more like stopping the support for a specific football club?

 

[MaximumSpider]

Wow, fuck off Sony

 

[Chris Metal]

Please don’t try to deflect and defend this. If true, I cannot support this. You have your rules that you live by, I have mine. I appreciate that you shared your opinion and true, all companies go through this. But trying to pay someone off and then fire them when they don’t accept? Don’t do this man. I am not going go back and forth about it.

Um I said Sony HR who dealt with this is accountable. I'm not defending it. It seems people seem to gloss over the first few words I said. "So the sick actions of one person against another" < that is not supportive of those actions. What I do not like is attacking entire teams of employees due to the the actions of few.

 

[Scipio]

While yes, false or malicious accusations of sexual assault/harrasssment could happen, it is statistically quite rare. Sure, it's not impossible, but I sort of err on the side that it's hard as fuck for people (especially men) to come forward with these kinds of things, I find it hard to believe that someone would just willingly bring all of that upon themselves.

Every single thing, even claims as horrible as these, need to be viewed with the necessary skepticism. The ramifications of false accusations can be as destructive (if not, even more) than the alleged crime itself. The fact that statistically the chance is low that it is false shouldn't impact this, and actually it is near impossible to gather statistics on the accuracy of accusations of sexual assault. In general, studies state rape accusations have a 3%-10% chance of being false, which in my opinion is still rather high.

 

[Aters]

Came for scumbag sexual harrasser. Got big corporation trying to cover up. This is even worse than I expected.

 

[JuanLatino]

isnt it more like stopping the support for a specific football club?

even with that comparison
why would i boycott a whole football club, for what the higher ups did (president) instead of protesting agaist those people responsible

 

[Dick Justice]

And now COD multiplayer is pretty much dead on PC. Only dumbasses post this shit to argue against boycotts.

 

[massoluk]

I can't believe these are the new Milkshake Ducks

 

[SkyOdin]

So the sick actions of one person against another in a team of 300 odd is enough to make you not support the rest of the ND teams hard work and go on a boycott? Hmm plenty of fucked up logic in this thread bastardizing the entirety of ND by the actions of one... The Sony HR team who dealt with this can be held more accountable but the whole of Sony? No, I would not grab pitchforks to them as different departments have different HR.

This is an issue bigger than Sony as a company in an industry rife with sexual harassment that needs to be addressed. If you guys think that companies like MS, Nintendo, Ubisoft, EA don't have these problems... Wellll. Only now is anyone getting attention coming forward due to the Weinstein case getting tons of media coverage.

The harasser wasn't the person who fired the victim, it was the company who did. Naughty Dog is responsible for the bad HR practices that sided with the harasser over the victim. That is a corporate and structural level problem. As such, targeting the company with a boycott is entirely reasonable stance for people to take. You can only change a company's policies by threatening that company's bottom line. There are various methods of doing so, but a boycott is a fairly direct measure, if people feel that it is appropriate.

Saying that this happens in other companies too is just a deflection as well. Sadly, this is not an isolated case. But the starting point to changing a widespread cultural problem is to start by tackling the known cases and making it clear that sexual harassment is not acceptable, and that companies that condone it will face consequences.

Systemic problems need systemic solutions.

 

[Mega Caprison]

I can't believe these are the new Milkshake Ducks

Right now ND is everybody milkshake duck

 

[wumster3000]

Um I said Sony HR who dealt with this is accountable. I'm not defending it. It seems people seem to gloss over the first few words I said. "So the sick actions of one person against another" < that is not supportive of those actions. What I do not like is attacking entire teams of employees due to the the actions of few.

Alright, thanks for pointing out what you meant. You stand by your point and I’ll stand by mine. We can disagree and move on.

The harasser wasn't the person who fired the victim, it was the company who did. Naughty Dog is responsible for the bad HR practices that sided with the harasser over the victim. That is a corporate and structural level problem. As such, targeting the company with a boycott is entirely reasonable stance for people to take. You can only change a company's policies by threatening that company's bottom line. There are various methods of doing so, but a boycott is a fairly direct measure, if people feel that it is appropriate.

Saying that this happens in other companies too is just a deflection as well. Sadly, this is not an isolated case. But the starting point to changing a widespread cultural problem is to start by tackling the known cases and making it clear that sexual harassment is not acceptable, and that companies that condone it will face consequences.

Systemic problems need systemic solutions.

Exactly.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

even with that comparison
why would i boycott a whole football club, for what the higher ups did (president) instead of protesting agaist those people responsible

we don't know who was involved at this point outside of the attempted hush money

 

[RSTEIN]

The harasser wasn't the person who fired the victim, it was the company who did. Naughty Dog is responsible for the bad HR practices that sided with the harasser over the victim. That is a corporate and structural level problem. As such, targeting the company with a boycott is entirely reasonable stance for people to take. You can only change a company's policies by threatening that company's bottom line. There are various methods of doing so, but a boycott is a fairly direct measure, if people feel that it is appropriate.

Saying that this happens in other companies too is just a deflection as well. Sadly, this is not an isolated case. But the starting point to changing a widespread cultural problem is to start by tackling the known cases and making it clear that sexual harassment is not acceptable, and that companies that condone it will face consequences.

Systemic problems need systemic solutions.

I agree. If true, this speaks to a systemic problem with naughty dog/Sony.

Like Weinstein. They created a contract that allowed for sexual harassment. Thats a company problem.

 

[Captain Fun]

This is upsetting to hear. Hopefully we see more of this stuff exposed. He didn't name anybody yet, so I don't know what can really come of it.

Also not sure why some people are so concerned about whether or not people boycott ND games over this...

 

[nkarafo]

So the sick actions of one person against another in a team of 300 odd is enough to make you not support the rest of the ND teams hard work and go on a boycott? Hmm plenty of fucked up logic in this thread bastardizing the entirety of ND by the actions of one... The Sony HR team who dealt with this can be held more accountable but the whole of Sony? No, I would not grab pitchforks to them as different departments have different HR.

In what number of people you draw the line? Is one enough to pollute 10? 50? 100?

I'm asking this because the same thing happened with the team behind The Hat in Time. Plenty (?) of people will have to take the heat because of whoever decided to keep Jon in the game.

I have no idea how many people worked for that game though.

 

[ZeoVGM]

sorry sorry i just don't think that poster read the opening post in the thread he's replying to

I read the title and the Twitter quote. I misread the title.

And funny enough, I just came back into the thread to say that my assumption that this was a woman is part of the reason why some men don't come forward.

But I was greeted to you trying to pick a fight with me after I already apologized.

yeah, i think i definitely had the final word

Nice priorities.

This is a thread about someone being sexually harassed and you're trying to start arguments and make it about you. Come on.

 

[Veon]

So the sick actions of one person against another in a team of 300 odd is enough to make you not support the rest of the ND teams hard work and go on a boycott? Hmm plenty of fucked up logic in this thread bastardizing the entirety of ND by the actions of one... The Sony HR team who dealt with this can be held more accountable but the whole of Sony? No, I would not grab pitchforks to them as different departments have different HR.

This is an issue bigger than Sony as a company in an industry rife with sexual harassment that needs to be addressed. If you guys think that companies like MS, Nintendo, Ubisoft, EA don't have these problems... Wellll. Only now is anyone getting attention coming forward due to the Weinstein case getting tons of media coverage.

We don't even know if this is the only case of its kind or if more is coming out today allegations come out today or tomorrow.

 

[Silent Hill]

Holy shit.

 

[Chris Metal]

The harasser wasn't the person who fired the victim, it was the company who did. Naughty Dog is responsible for the bad HR practices that sided with the harasser over the victim. That is a corporate and structural level problem. As such, targeting the company with a boycott is entirely reasonable stance for people to take. You can only change a company's policies by threatening that company's bottom line. There are various methods of doing so, but a boycott is a fairly direct measure, if people feel that it is appropriate.

Saying that this happens in other companies too is just a deflection as well. Sadly, this is not an isolated case. But the starting point to changing a widespread cultural problem is to start by tackling the known cases and making it clear that sexual harassment is not acceptable, and that companies that condone it will face consequences.

Systemic problems need systemic solutions.

Oh OK so 300 employees stood in front of him and told him he was fired. Makes sense... Why is it when I say employees it means to a lot ND are nothing more than just the execs who hire and fire people. ND is a workforce, I think a lot of you guys forget that. You said yourself this is corporate issue so boycotting the dev team, all the programmers, art workers, sound designers... No, I'm sorry boycott targeting 300 employees for the actions of higher ups an an ass hole harasser is not the way. All it achieves is making life more difficult for those working there. It's a problem Sony needs to address with the HR department who dealt with this and formulate ways that staff relations/conduct are improved so this doesn't happen in the future.

 

[Famassu]

So the sick actions of one person against another in a team of 300 odd is enough to make you not support the rest of the ND teams hard work and go on a boycott? Hmm plenty of fucked up logic in this thread bastardizing the entirety of ND by the actions of one... The Sony HR team who dealt with this can be held more accountable but the whole of Sony? No, I would not grab pitchforks to them as different departments have different HR.

This is an issue bigger than Sony as a company in an industry rife with sexual harassment that needs to be addressed. If you guys think that companies like MS, Nintendo, Ubisoft, EA don't have these problems... Wellll. Only now is anyone getting attention coming forward due to the Weinstein case getting tons of media coverage.

You got to hit them where it hurts them. These big companies don't give shit about anything else but money. So a loud boycott of at least Naughty Dog's games (because that's where this happened) gives this issue visibility and forces Sony to act on it.

 

[DarkConfidant]

What a horrible thing.

And I’m sure this is just the start. Pulling on this string will only unravel more. You don’t get a corporate culture that tries to cover this shit up and also not also fail to prevent more from happening.

 

[CookTrain]

The indignation over people suggesting a boycott is truly bizarre. Like the default is to be giving them the money, and any suggestion of other action is alien.

It seems this kind of speaking out is empowering to people. This is obviously a decision made after seeing the Hollywood stories come out and I hope his decision to speak encourages others to speak out as well.

 

[Wildo09]

I haven't played any Naught Dog game since Jak 2, but I hope that the people that do make it clear to the company that these policies can't continue to exist.

 

[paulogy]

What an awful thing to have occurred.

They tried to silence me by offering $20,000 if I signed a letter agreeing to the termination as well as to not discuss it with anyone. 4/

The way this is presented makes the termination offer sound very fishy, but this could be a fairly typical severance agreement with $20k / X% consideration. Most people would never intend to make a claim and prefer to have the severance, but in this case it seems that was declined knowing there was more of a story to tell.

 

[DataGhost]

It truly is a shame that they had to keep this bottled up for many months and only recently had the courage to speak out.

Being unemployed for that long after the incident must have added extra stress / difficulties and I hope their situation improves.

 

[Abelard]

Umm...why not?

Sorry for the late reply, but its because in those cases there were multiple allegations coming out at once and thus seemed more credible. In this case? There is just one guy so while there is a chance he was sexually harassed, there is an equal amount of chance he was not. The fact that he was fired... there is a missing link there but I will refrain from commenting or drawing further conclusions until evidence of some sort is provided.

And I don't mean to sound cold or anything, ultimately workplace harassment is a terrible thing but as someone who has been witness to a case of false allegations of sexual harassment and has seen how that can ruin one's life/reputation, I think a healthy dose of skepticism is always required. Treat this as you would any other allegation, as of now Naughty Dog and Sony are innocent because they have yet to be proven guilty of anything.

Either way I think its best to maintain a neutral stance until further information/statements surface.

 

[Aters]

Looking at the past two pages, it stinks of the usual people not wanting to believe victims.

For some reason, I believe if it wasn't ND but some other studio, people wouldn't be so keen on defending it.

 

[jrush64]

For some reason, I believe if it wasn't ND but some other studio, people wouldn't be so keen on defending it.

Yup, agreed with this

 

[Baroquemantic]

For some reason, I believe if it wasn't ND but some other studio, people wouldn't be so keen on defending it.

I doubt it. People will defend anything.

 

[l2ounD]

Is the harasser still there?

I cant imagine working there and seeing a co-worker have a mental breakdown then fired because of harassment from another co-worker there.

Like just being in a team meeting with that person would be awkward

 

[Azuran]

For some reason, I believe if it wasn't ND but some other studio, people wouldn't be so keen on defending it.

Naughty Dog's Defense Force makes the Atlus' look like child play. The extent some people go to to defend a movie studio is amazing.

 

[FF Seraphim]

I hope he kept a copy of that letter and sues the fuck out them. Corporations wont care about this issue until it hurts them where they care the most: money.

 

[MoonFrog]

Tbh I don't think there was too much defense force in here.

There are a couple strange posts that got quoted a lot that aren't necessarily DF posts--like the one about men always wanting sex with any and every woman and taking any forward action well.

There's been discussion around boycott and what not, which can read a bit DF. There are a couple recent reply chains that can read the same.

But...maybe it is just where my attention was, but I mostly read personal abuse experiences and talk about the nature of this sort of abuse.

 

[Memento]

Wow, if true... Fucking Yikes.

The guy needs to hit them with a freaking giant lawsuit and expose the scumbag.

What a disappointment to me as a fan of the studio. Ugh.

Sony should be hit hard too. Offering money to silence him? Jesus Christ. The lead from ND is probably someone important if they had the balls to make something so stupid.

This fucking industry man...