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Halo: Master Chief Collection Master Thread | This is it, baby. Hold me.

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nillapuddin

Member
Halo 3 remastered makes sense, especially if they can mine into Halo lore even more, terminals, the ark, the cease fire, 343s "death".. etc

there is alot there they can embellish on. I would be very much like that to exist one day

The only thing that irks me now though, is that cutscenes in half the games are real time, half are pre-rendered, it seems odd to skip back and forth.

Im so spoiled that eventually I would want the first trilogy to have Blur quality cut scenes, with remastered visuals, Halo 4 is pretty future proof for quite awhile

Halo3hood.jpg is really the last thing keeping the original trilogy from being easily playable for a very long time

(I know we all go back and play our old games, but sometimes it hurts, that hood face, always hurts.)
 

darthbob

Member
Halo 3 remastered makes sense, especially if they can mine into Halo lore even more, terminals, the ark, the cease fire, 343s "death".. etc

there is alot there they can embellish on. I would be very much like that to exist one day

The only thing that irks me now though, is that cutscenes in half the games are real time, half are pre-rendered, it seems odd to skip back and forth.

Im so spoiled that eventually I would want the first trilogy to have Blur quality cut scenes, with remastered visuals, Halo 4 is pretty future proof for quite awhile

Halo3hood.jpg is really the last thing keeping the original trilogy from being easily playable for a very long time

(I know we all go back and play our old games, but sometimes it hurts, that hood face, always hurts.)

LOOK AT IT.

LOOK AT IT!

H3-LordAdmiralTerrenceHood.jpg
 

FyreWulff

Member
Shouldn't it just be "Elo", or does Halo 2 use something else that happens to have the same name in allcaps?

I keep hearing "Don't Bring Me Down" whenever you post about this.

I have a bad habit of typing it in all caps

I'm not talking about a specific time period that I can pull up, but this is conjecture. I can't say whether or not the opponents were below or above my rank when things like this happened, but it's way too convoluted.

It wasn't convoluted. Margin of victory didn't matter. A 50-49 win meant as much as a 50-15 win.

In pure Trueskill:

If your rank was higher than your opponent, you were less likely to rank up, or would only go up one rank.

If your rank was equal, you could rank up.

If your rank was lower, you're guaranteed to rank up.

Halo 3 had a slight modification where you'd advance slower through 1-20 and then after that it was closer to pure Trueskill. It was possible to get a 50 within about 28 games with perfect conditions and consistent wins.

So you'd go 1 > 3 > 5 > 6 > 8 > 10 > 11 > 13 > 15 > 17> 18 > 19 > 20 > 25 > 28 > 33 > 36 > 37 > 40 > 42 > 43 > 44 > 45 > 47 > 48 > 49 >50 in Halo 3


The reason Halo: Reach didn't show you your division until after a minimum number of games is because Reach uses pure Trueskill (as far as I know), and they wait to feed it the minimum number of games where TS is more confident of where you should be before showing your division. If Reach actually displayed a 1-50 number it'd look something like

1 > 27 > 47 > 36 > 30 > 25 > 37 > 30 > 39 > 40 > 35 > 30 > 37 > 40 > 45 etc. Too volatile to use as a visible ranking system.

I think in pure TS it's possible to get a 50 within 10 games or less, so a pure TS system would have TONS of account restarts from people trying to get quick 50s. So that's why Reach made you wait and made you defend your rank over and over and restarted every 3 months.
 
I have a bad habit of typing it in all caps



It wasn't convoluted. Margin of victory didn't matter. A 50-49 win meant as much as a 50-15 win.

In pure Trueskill:

If your rank was higher than your opponent, you were less likely to rank up, or would only go up one rank.

If your rank was equal, you could rank up.

If your rank was lower, you're guaranteed to rank up.

Halo 3 had a slight modification where you'd advance slower through 1-20 and then after that it was closer to pure Trueskill. It was possible to get a 50 within about 28 games with perfect conditions and consistent wins.

So you'd go 1 > 3 > 5 > 6 > 8 > 10 > 11 > 13 > 15 > 17> 18 > 19 > 20 > 25 > 28 > 33 > 36 > 37 > 40 > 42 > 43 > 44 > 45 > 47 > 48 > 49 >50 in Halo 3


The reason Halo: Reach didn't show you your division until after a minimum number of games is because Reach uses pure Trueskill (as far as I know), and they wait to feed it the minimum number of games where TS is more confident of where you should be before showing your division. If Reach actually displayed a 1-50 number it'd look something like

1 > 27 > 47 > 36 > 30 > 25 > 37 > 30 > 39 > 40 > 35 > 30 > 37 > 40 > 45 etc. Too volatile to use as a visible ranking system.

I think in pure TS it's possible to get a 50 within 10 games or less, so a pure TS system would have TONS of account restarts from people trying to get quick 50s. So that's why Reach made you wait and made you defend your rank over and over and restarted every 3 months.

So, with all of your knowledge on net infrastructure and ranking and all that, what would you actually say are your preferred machinations within a ranking system?
 

PNut

Banned
So what you're saying is, if you just jumped in with your group of friends who were experts in H3 and just hid somewhere the whole game and they won all 28 - you'd get a 50. That seems very broken.

No that wouldn't happen in team slayer. It works differently when you play with a full team. It is possible to get a 50 in team doubles in less than 20 games. But even then you have to really good.
 

FyreWulff

Member
So, with all of your knowledge on net infrastructure and ranking and all that, what would you actually say are your preferred machinations within a ranking system?

I like Reach's system, although in retrospect the Arena should have been FFA only when they trimmed them down and not 4v4. The points formula worked much better for FFA and the super strict skill matching would have probably have less search time in the FFA format. And have some way to easily tell if someone has completed seasons in the UI

Halo 3's per-playlist EXP rank was also very helpful to spot who might be good at the gametype and who had invest a lot in a gametype.

There's multiple considerations:

- Loss anxiety. Players tend to stop playing a playlist when they get higher in a playlist because they'd rather keep their rank and protect it than play with it. Even competitive chess has formulas to try and encourage people to keep playing instead of getting a high rank and just not playing anymore. The negative effects is the population at high end withers, so search times go up and the system has to start pulling more lower skill players to fight the higher skill, making THEM quit sooner.

- Reward. People don't like it when they don't know why they didn't go up in rank. Reach attempted to expose all the nuts and bolts, which led to concerns and instances of team-mates metagaming the match to optimize the formula instead of focusing on the game and helping their team no matter what.. Halo 4 has CSR which you have to have Smartglass or a web browser to see, but also exists in all playlists for some reason, so you have ranks in places like Team Actionsack (wut)

- Player Investment. Players want to feel like the game acknowledges their investment into it. Halo 3 was nice, but once you 50'd a playlist there was nothing much to do, and after 5,000 exp you had pretty much beaten the game. Not too much draw to come back. Playlist EXP functionally made ranking up endless since it's near humanly impossible to 5-star General every playlist in Halo 3, but some interests weren't held by that.

Reach had a nice long military rank investment system, but it was honestly too long at the end - when I go back and play Reach, I don't even see the bar move anymore and I'm an Eclipse. And there's four more damn ranks after that with even longer cR requirements. For some reason, Bungie only rank capped once and then opened up all the ranks. I think they should have progressively opened up the higher ranks to feel more like an event, and also so they could take the chance to study how fast people were progressing and adjust the rank requirements accordingly.

Halo 4's investment system was way too short. I never maxed but everyone I've asked said SR130 was too easy to get. It's like the game tells you to stop playing it - and it's perplexing why they just didn't go MMO with it and patch in higher SR ranks with each DLC. "Go increase your CSR, that's your player investment now" doesn't sound appetizing when CSRs reset.

My ideal ranking system:

1) Reward the hardcore players while discouraging second accounting (which results in newcomers being steamrolled and not coming back to that playlist)
2) Give some sort of way to tell how long someone has been playing, so you can tell how experienced they are.

I know a good way to unify this into a single rank that makes sense, has no loss anxiety, and minimal metaranking. I'm done giving hard work to 343 for free, tho
 
I like Reach's system, although in retrospect the Arena should have been FFA only when they trimmed them down and not 4v4. The points formula worked much better for FFA and the super strict skill matching would have probably have less search time in the FFA format. And have some way to easily tell if someone has completed seasons in the UI

Halo 3's per-playlist EXP rank was also very helpful to spot who might be good at the gametype and who had invest a lot in a gametype.

There's multiple considerations:

- Loss anxiety. Players tend to stop playing a playlist when they get higher in a playlist because they'd rather keep their rank and protect it than play with it. Even competitive chess has formulas to try and encourage people to keep playing instead of getting a high rank and just not playing anymore. The negative effects is the population at high end withers, so search times go up and the system has to start pulling more lower skill players to fight the higher skill, making THEM quit sooner.

- Reward. People don't like it when they don't know why they didn't go up in rank. Reach attempted to expose all the nuts and bolts, which led to concerns and instances of team-mates metagaming the match to optimize the formula instead of focusing on the game and helping their team no matter what.. Halo 4 has CSR which you have to have Smartglass or a web browser to see, but also exists in all playlists for some reason, so you have ranks in places like Team Actionsack (wut)

- Player Investment. Players want to feel like the game acknowledges their investment into it. Halo 3 was nice, but once you 50'd a playlist there was nothing much to do, and after 5,000 exp you had pretty much beaten the game. Not too much draw to come back. Playlist EXP functionally made ranking up endless since it's near humanly impossible to 5-star General every playlist in Halo 3, but some interests weren't held by that.

Reach had a nice long military rank investment system, but it was honestly too long at the end - when I go back and play Reach, I don't even see the bar move anymore and I'm an Eclipse. And there's four more damn ranks after that with even longer cR requirements. For some reason, Bungie only rank capped once and then opened up all the ranks. I think they should have progressively opened up the higher ranks to feel more like an event, and also so they could take the chance to study how fast people were progressing and adjust the rank requirements accordingly.

Halo 4's investment system was way too short. I never maxed but everyone I've asked said SR130 was too easy to get. It's like the game tells you to stop playing it - and it's perplexing why they just didn't go MMO with it and patch in higher SR ranks with each DLC. "Go increase your CSR, that's your player investment now" doesn't sound appetizing when CSRs reset.

My ideal ranking system:

1) Reward the hardcore players while discouraging second accounting (which results in newcomers being steamrolled and not coming back to that playlist)
2) Give some sort of way to tell how long someone has been playing, so you can tell how experienced they are.

I know a good way to unify this into a single rank that makes sense, has no loss anxiety, and minimal metaranking. I'm done giving hard work to 343 for free, tho

*wallet intensifies*
 

MaulerX

Member
Did you guys forget Miranda Keyes or something? She was the true face of horror...

A shame. Because I think the actual actress whom she was modeled from is quite pretty. They even managed to make Jessica Chobot to look like a beast.
 

SOLIDDDD

Banned
Great post Fyrewulff, alot of what you said holds true for me. I'm not ashamed to admit that once I hit my 50 in MLG I had that loss anxiety and barely ever touched it. Team Slayer and Doubles on the other hand I've always screwed around with. I'm interested to hear how you'd get rid of some of the negatives.
 

SOLIDDDD

Banned
damn I miss the halo 2 ranking system

shit got so real around level 43 and up

once you got to icons you were either modding or should have been on a bus to an event

Halo 2 ranking system was nuts. Even around the 30s the modders would really start kicking in. Anybody that had an icon was amazing to me, I never made it that far myself. Should be really awesome now that we may be able to replay this without the cheating.
 

Nirvana

Member
Frankly I'd love to have a completely remastered Halo 3 campaign as it is my favourite in the entire series.


I have to ask you why is Halo 3 your favourite campaign? I think it's easily the worst, and that includes 4, ODST and Reach.

Reasons:

-It's like they totally forgot about the Covenant schism. Where grunts, hunters and elites are helping you in Halo 2, suddenly all you have are a few elites here and there and all of the hunters and grunts are your enemies again. It felt totally inconsistent. Not only that, but they barely touched upon the schism in the cutscenes, apart from Half-Jaw and the Arbiter obviously being there, and the one brief moment where elites and marines are loading up together, it is barren of expounding on what was a really interesting plot point.

-The recasting of Truth and Miranda Keyes' voice actors. It's been discussed before in here.

-Truth's character becoming a religious nut instead of a calculating leader.
-The Elite's remodel looked terrible. They were shrunk down simply for the purposes of multiplayer hitboxes and it made them look ridiculous. Also putting the cosmetics on the elites in campaign just looked silly, keeping the same slight alterations in armour that they had throughout CE and 2 would have looked better and still differentiated them.

-The flood levels were all awful. The biggest difference is that other levels in Halo CE and Halo 2 where the flood show up generally had a wide variety of enemies to show the different battles going on, and to make the levels more interesting. Obviously the Library is the exception, and there is a reason it is hated. Most of Halo 3's levels, as soon as the flood are introduced, it becomes 'flood' level, and that's all we see for the rest of it, which is incredibly boring to play through. Not only that, but despite the Library's reputation, they make 'Cortana' which was the Library, but with uglier surroundings and worse enemies to deal with, that are even more boring to deal with. God that level on Legendary was horrible.

-The worst case of this was in the last level in the game. Where other last levels had variety in enemies, Halo 3's was all flood...set in the snow...coupled with steel forerunner tech. It was the most boring level of any game, let alone last level. The warthog homage tried to save it but failed.

-Johnson's death was pointless. He didn't die to further the story, the character development of others, or in an act of heroism in order to perpetuate his own character's badassery; he died for a cheap attempt at an emotional moment. I would rather he had died on the original Halo, hugging that Zealot.

-Miranda Keyes got killed by a Spiker...come on.

-Guilty Spark's rampancy seemed pretty Deus Ex Machina.

'How can we have the player fight him?'
'Just give him a laser...?'
'Brilliant!'

-Cortana not being with the Chief hurt the feeling of the game really badly. As much as they basically had to do it the way they did, it just didn't feel right to have the MC all alone without his trusty pal opening doors for him. It's like Banjo without Kazooie really...let's hope Halo 5 can pull it off...

-No big moment for Gravemind, which was a shame, because he was an interesting character. Would have been nice to learn a bit more about him/it before he sort of vaguely gets blown up.

It had a few really great sections, and the overarching storyline was ok, but it felt incredibly lacking, especially after the amazing story of Halo 2. Gameplay wise it was certainly fun, and they did a good job making the Brutes nearly as interesting to fight as Elites, but it just didn't hold up to the form of the previous two in my opinion.

Please Halo 3 campaign fans, tell me why it's your favourite!!
 
1) Reward the hardcore players while discouraging second accounting (which results in newcomers being steamrolled and not coming back to that playlist)

I used a lot of extra trial accounts over the years, particularly during H3 so I could play ranked matches with my friends.

Unfortunately, if you're significantly more skilled than your friends and want to play competitive matches, there isn't really much option other than second accounting. In H3 you probably wouldn't even find a match in ranked (also see your point on loss aversion above). In social playlists you can be split up, there's very little attempt to match by (invisible) skill level, you can get guests who have no idea how to play, people happily quit since there's no rank to convince them to try and see the rest of the game out... match quality is not particularly high...

I don't know how widespread this situation is though...

I like Reach's system, although in retrospect the Arena should have been FFA only when they trimmed them down and not 4v4. The points formula worked much better for FFA and the super strict skill matching would have probably have less search time in the FFA format. And have some way to easily tell if someone has completed seasons in the UI

The main flaw in Reach's system is that it's a rating system that doesn't correspond to reality, because ferrex (I think; sorry if it's not you Tyson!) fucked it up badly. You will NEVER get an accurate system if you weight deaths as 1/3rd of a kill. Remember that kills are zero-sum (though deaths are obviously not due to suiciding and betrayals). You could actually die more times than you killed and cost your team the game (e.g. 20 kills, 30 deaths, equal to 10K 0D), but if you got enough kills then you were considered to have done better than that guy on your team who got 9K 0D, despite the massive difference in contribution.

The flat 4% rating loss for losing also punished very good players. Lets say you lost 49-50 and got all your team's kills while dying 0 times yourself (+49K/D!). I worked it out that due to it being increasingly harder to gain rating, this ended up wiping out about 20 of your kills (from memory, 23 actually, nearly half of them). It was a terrible, terrible system.

In fact, the entire system punished good players by marginalising your score the better you got, due to rating being a function of tan(x).


I have to ask you why is Halo 3 your favourite campaign? I think it's easily the worst, and that includes 4, ODST and Reach.

Really? I attribute many of the flaws in H3's campaign to the baggage from the clusterfuck that was H2's campaign. And while it's definitely weaker for the lack of Cortana, I can't really hold it against H3 when H2 is the real culprit.

And to give you an idea of how bad I think Halo 2's campaign is, it's the only Bungie one I've never replayed. The only other Halo campaign I've never replayed is H4.
 

Nirvana

Member
disagree. 2 is definitely the worst, but it's still playable. It's not even finished.

Halo 2 is easily my favourite, by far. Best level design, best storytelling, and they took risks, which made it interesting, and is the reason it was unfinished. I knew they were making a third, so the cliff hanger wasn't an issue for me at all, even after finding out they didn't add everything they wanted to.
 

Chitown B

Member
Halo 2 is easily my favourite, by far. Best level design, best storytelling, and they took risks, which made it interesting, and is the reason it was unfinished. I knew they were making a third, so the cliff hanger wasn't an issue for me at all, even after finding out they didn't add everything they wanted to.

the reason it's unfinished is because MS forced the release date.

No one wants to play as the "enemy" half the game. The levels are forgettable. The MP is the only reason people loved it.

That being said, I'm looking forward to checking out the H2A edition to see if it can change my mind.
 

jem0208

Member
the reason it's unfinished is because MS forced the release date.

No one wants to play as the "enemy" half the game. The levels are forgettable. The MP is the only reason people loved it.

That being said, I'm looking forward to checking out the H2A edition to see if it can change my mind.

disagree. 2 is definitely the worst, but it's still playable. It's not even finished.

No way, 2 is definitely the best.

By far the most interesting level design as well as a really interesting story. I thought playing as the Arbiter was brilliant and gave a really interesting look at the other side of the story. The collapse of the Covenant and subsequent annihilation of High Charity of the Flood made the Covenant's story far more interesting.

It also had Delta Halo which is the best level in any Halo ever.
 
Loss anxiety. Players tend to stop playing a playlist when they get higher in a playlist because they'd rather keep their rank and protect it than play with it. Even competitive chess has formulas to try and encourage people to keep playing instead of getting a high rank and just not playing anymore. The negative effects is the population at high end withers, so search times go up and the system has to start pulling more lower skill players to fight the higher skill, making THEM quit sooner.

Starcraft 2's bonus pool does wonders in this regard. Encourage people to play knowing that they have a buffer zone where losses won't count against them (as far as anything visible goes, at least). But I guess it's something that only really works properly with an Arena-style tier/division.
 
No way, 2 is definitely the best.

By far the most interesting level design as well as a really interesting story. I thought playing as the Arbiter was brilliant and gave a really interesting look at the other side of the story. The collapse of the Covenant and subsequent annihilation of High Charity of the Flood made the Covenant's story far more interesting.

It also had Delta Halo which is the best level in any Halo ever.
you misspelled the covenant
 

RoKKeR

Member
Despite the Hood hating (well deserved haha) Halo 3 is such a fantastic looking game, baring resolution. The lighting is absolutely phenomenal, maybe some of the best in a game last generation.

It's the game I'm most excited to play in this collection... probably because it's my favorite Halo game but damn I am pumped.
 

Toa TAK

Banned
I appreciated the Arbiter levels in Halo 2 more once I realized he was a better character then Chief at that point, excluding the books.
 
Despite the Hood hating (well deserved haha) Halo 3 is such a fantastic looking game, baring resolution. The lighting is absolutely phenomenal, maybe some of the best in a game last generation.

It's the game I'm most excited to play in this collection... probably because it's my favorite Halo game but damn I am pumped.

Really the only thing that looks bad in the game is the human faces.
I appreciated the Arbiter levels in Halo 2 more once I realized he was a better character then Chief at that point, excluding the books.

Thel 'Vadam is still a better character when including the books.
 
For me Thel Vadam=Carherine Halsey

Everyone else #justcant

Oh Christ, you gonna make me choose aren't you?

Arbiter grew on me a lot, but he is far too trusting in the books. Being diplomatic is one thing but he has made some stupid calls. Halsey is pretty much a tragic anti-hero, especially in the books, but God can she get annoying. Arby is gonna have to have the edge for me.

Delta Halo feels like it takes FOREVER to complete. Stopped enjoying it well before it was over. As for favorite level in 2? Need to think about that.

The Library in 1 is the ultimate love/hate level in the history of video games.
 

Portman

Member
I just got an Xbox One a few days ago for this (nostalgia hype!) and picked up the Microsoft headset to go along with it. Since the headset will be playing both the game audio and the chat does anyone have any theories as to how the proximity chat would be distinguished from the team chat?

The only thing I can think of would be an extra sound on the team chat like a radio click, but I can't recall if Halo 2 had that.
 
Halo 2's campaign is the worst. I hated playing as The Arbiter. I want to play as Solid Snake, not Raiden, Capcpom!

Halo 2 permanently fucked the Halo storyline. It turned to Covenant from a mysterious and imposing alien menace into stoopid shallow religious nuts talking English. Lame as hell.
 
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