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[Derrick01]

Microsoft's output eclipsed Sony's last year in a huge way. But then again unlike Derrick, I acknowledge that downloadable games are games too.

If I did that then I would have to include the game that split GOTY awards with walking dead last year across the internet, Journey.

I prefer not to include bite sized games for anyone because they're mostly boring, shallow games. Although mark of the ninja was pretty good (think it was #3 on my list). We, meaning Gaf, mostly prefer bigger games.

 

[Izick]

As for surprising people, I definitely think they're going to surprise a ton of people(in a bad way). I'm just basing it off a couple PMs I got from people who are in a position to know things about MS's plans. Let's just say SuperDaE's infantile tweets dismissing "no used games" and "always online" were bullshit and Kotaku was right to believe their other source.

Care to divulge any more info?

 

[CadetMahoney]

It's been proven. Stuburns posted the list not long ago, the only non kinect retail exclusives they've had since kinect released are a mix of 5 or 6 halo/gears/forza games.

So now we're not allowed to mention the core games they do release because they're sequels?

That's definitely a lower output from before when they stuff like crackdown and Rare's games to go along with those other IPs.

Didn't the rare games release long before Kinect was released, crackdown too doesn't seemed to be linked to Kinect affecting it either. Then again, if they released sequels for them they would also not count.

Their output is quite consistently low for a long time, before I'd say Kinect came about. That the few non-hits could possibly not warrant a sequel is a more plausible explanation than "Kinect is to blame for no Crackdown".

 

[Tyrone_Biggums]

I prefer not to include bite sized games for anyone because they're mostly boring, shallow games.

I.E. doesn't fit the narrative. Discredit the games all you want, but not all people look to play in front of a television for hours on end, even console owners. Goes back to the success of mobile devices being so popular to game on. Those 'bite sized' downloadable games have been a hit for both developers and consumers.

 

[Derrick01]

So now we're not allowed to mention the core games they do release because they're sequels?

I didn't say that, I'm just noting how they whored those franchises out while not putting anything else out to mix with them. What if you're a multiple platform owner like many on here are and don't like shooters or racers, or don't like those specific shooter and racing franchises? You're kind of screwed as far as 360 games goes because most everything else that wasn't a kinect game released on PC or PS3 too. Even a lot of the notable xbla games.

I.E. doesn't fit the narrative.

Well you can say that but I was fair and left PSN out too, it's not like no indie/arcade games came out on there last year either. And a lot of the xbla games people jizz over came to PC or are coming to PC very soon.

 

[Baconsammy]

Care to divulge any more info?

From what I hear, there was a developer-centric meeting recently and those two features were announced. Some devs asked for clarification to make sure what they heard was correct, and were told that they heard it perfectly fine. I don't have any specifics on how they plan to implement either of those two "features". Personally I prefer Sony's way of doing things. By making all releases day-and-date on PSN, a developer that wanted to kill used game sales could simply just not release a retail version. Done, no used sale of that title. It also removes the need for special codes on retail copies that have to be entered the first time you play a game (assuming thats how Microsoft would implement their plan).

I.E. doesn't fit the narrative.

You're catching on.

 

[XtremeXpider]

As for surprising people, I definitely think they're going to surprise a ton of people(in a bad way). I'm just basing it off a couple PMs I got from people who are in a position to know things about MS's plans. Let's just say SuperDaE's infantile tweets dismissing "no used games" and "always online" were bullshit and Kotaku was right to believe their other source.

Microsoft doing it and Sony don't? shocked...

making all releases day-and-date on PSN, a developer that wanted to kill used game sales could simply just not release a retail version. Done, no used sale of that title.

No online required?

 

[Mr.Wreckless]

If I did that then I would have to include the game that split GOTY awards with walking dead last year across the internet, Journey.

I prefer not to include bite sized games for anyone because they're mostly boring, shallow games. Although mark of the ninja was pretty good (think it was #3 on my list). We, meaning Gaf, mostly prefer bigger games.

If your last sentence were true then why is this forum a bastion for PC indie love?

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

So now we're not allowed to mention the core games they do release because they're sequels?



Didn't the rare games release long before Kinect was released, crackdown too doesn't seemed to be linked to Kinect affecting it either. Then again, if they released sequels for them they would also not count.

Their output is quite consistently low for a long time, before I'd say Kinect came about. That the few non-hits could possibly not warrant a sequel is a more plausible explanation than "Kinect is to blame for no Crackdown".

Wait, so you think Kinect did not have an effect on MS exclusive output. What do you think those Kinect studios would be working on instead? MS would of at least invested some of that money in those studios.

Sequels should be counted. I think people want their beloved franchises along with new IP's. Is that too much to ask?

Haven't you heard? Sony hates appealing to casual and wider demographics, they only want to appeal to hardcore gamers that scoff and vomit whenever they see a new app get released on a console.

Sony will never attempt to match software support that Microsoft does with the Xbox ever, all the media stuff on the PS3 was a huge ruse to make hardcore gamers feel better about the PS4 being made just for them.

How many exclusive games has Sony released since 2010? How many of them are casual titles?

Now do the same with MS?

Its clear which company is focusing on what. Sony said their focusing on gamers and developers at this stage. They did not say they were abandoning the casuals.

 

[Baconsammy]

Microsoft doing it and Sony don't? shocked...

Yeah, it doesn't fit their MO of copying everything. I think they're right to not mandate it, but also provide a way that a publisher can cut off 100 percent of used game sales if they felt like it. It also makes me think twice about my notion that going 100 percent no-used-games will benefit Microsoft in regards to third party relations. The only benefit is a physical copy of the game that can't be resold, but in reality if it's always tied to one machine/user, it's not much different than buying a digital copy.

No online required?

I'm not sure what you're asking me here.

 

[Derrick01]

If your last sentence were true then why is this forum a bastion for PC indie love?

That's overstating it quite a bit. Check the goty threads the last few years. Mostly AAA or other non indie games in the top 10 and top 20. We only had 4 indie games in the top 20 in 2012 (if you can call mark of the ninja and journey indie games since they had MS and Sony publishing) and that's in a year many consider to be one of the weakest AAA gaming years we've ever had.

 

[Impeccable]

As for surprising people, I definitely think they're going to surprise a ton of people(in a bad way). I'm just basing it off a couple PMs I got from people who are in a position to know things about MS's plans. Let's just say SuperDaE's infantile tweets dismissing "no used games" and "always online" were bullshit and Kotaku was right to believe their other source.

You of all people have "sources" now?

lol

 

[J-Rzez]

I don't doubt one moment that MS has changed the system that was leaked hardware wise. Maybe not extensively, but they probably did at least a bit. The thing that concerns me is not necessarily the hardware in which I have faith in they'll make a decent performing machine at the very least, but it's initial reliability. The 360 was the least reliable gaming machine ever made. At least the "flipped upside-down" PS1s and "laser tweak via screwdriver" PS2s usually occurred after some time, and usually after extensive use. The 360 on the other hand was RRoDing day-one in oddly high numbers reported from forums, then after a week, a month. RRoD was scary to those buying the machine 3-4 years later that it would happen to them shortly as well. MS covered it up at first, via the "trust" people had in Peter Moore, and the media was too focused on trying to run Sony out of the industry, and thus articles about it were very "passive". I would like to think with the basic hardware that sounds like is going into the 360 we shouldn't have these issues, but you just don't know about their QA and thermal designs.

Something else that's of concern is their software support for gamers. MS was guns blazing for the gamer in the early part of the 360 life but then dissipated mid-life and out. They don't have the studios in number or quality that say ninty and especially Sony has to rely on a steady stream of titles until the end of run for the console. The "money hats" started to thin out soon as they thought they had a large enough lead to not worry. Couple in that there maybe more ads than ever, along with the distinct possibility that they may not have the "3rd party port go-to" box this time it's easy to be very-very skeptical.

Of course this thing will be a media box. I see people bring that up as worrisome, but integrating 3rd party non-gaming related media services is a MS expertise. And it's not like the PS3 didn't have non-gaming media features, along with that brief shot at the past meeting shows that the PS4 will carry over and add more of these features in at the same time.

 

[Izick]

Yeah, it doesn't fit their MO of copying everything. I think they're right to not mandate it, but also provide a way that a publisher can cut off 100 percent of used game sales if they felt like it. It also makes me think twice about my notion that going 100 percent no-used-games will benefit Microsoft in regards to third party relations. The only benefit is a physical copy of the game that can't be resold, but in reality if it's always tied to one machine/user, it's not much different than buying a digital copy.



I'm not sure what you're asking me here.

I think a lot of people are assuming that the Nextbox must have sort of internet connection to work...or maybe just play games maybe? Like DRM? I never really believed or understood what people were trying to say but I think that's the gist of it.

 

[Arkage]

Bit size games are something I play when otherwise doing something else: bus, car ride. And the sessions last about 5 minutes, max. I never play them if I have actual options like Vita/3DS/consoles. The vast, vast majority truly are boring shlock, and the only reason for their success is their cheapness and the general attitude consumers have when spending a dollar. People would literally throw dollars into a fountain to bring them good luck if it weren't made of paper.

 

[CadetMahoney]

I didn't say that, I'm just noting how they whored those franchises out while not putting anything else out to mix with them.

But again that is consistent with their output for a long time.

Imaginary expectations on MS' output.

From a low output anyway, a few non-hit titles being lamented as a big deal is disengenuous.

What if you're a multiple platform owner like many on here are and don't like shooters or racers, or don't like those specific shooter and racing franchises?

I'd look for the 3rd party exclusives and whatever has the best performance/community of ports.

I certainly won't look for a specific publisher to be my sole provider of games. A publisher who never was on my radar as providing a dearth of titles in the first place. Why would I? That's even assuming none of their titles interest me.

 

[Tyrone_Biggums]

These Sony/Microsoft debates all over GAF have discussed this idea that you cater to the hardcore first to get your base as they are the early adopters. After that market is saturated, you target the less core audience, or your 'casual' players.

Multiple arguments list Sony as doing the right thing going after the core with the PS4, then likely transitioning into the casual market after core penetration.

Since that marketing concept makes sense to justify PS4's life cycle, why are people hating Microsoft for doing that exact thing with the 360?

Microsoft saw stagnation in the core market and branched out with Kinect, downloadable games and media content to increase their market share. We really expect these companies to focus on only the core market? Either company does that and these consoles don't exist.

 

[XtremeXpider]

I'm not sure what you're asking me here.

Talking about only digital games, Im asking if those game will not require online conection.

 

[MagicWithEarvin]

After, the Wii U and PS4 rumors and speculations threads - I thought people would learn not to trust GAF'ers and their "sources".

 

[Tyrone_Biggums]

After, the Wii U and PS4 rumors and speculations threads - I thought people would learn not to trust GAF'ers and their "sources".

People can't help themselves.

 

[Hoo-doo]

After, the Wii U and PS4 rumors and speculations threads - I thought people would learn not to trust GAF'ers and their "sources".

Indeed. People trying to give their arguments weight by saying they have inside sources, yet don't try to get verified by moderators are becoming pretty obnoxious lately.

 

[Baconsammy]

These Sony/Microsoft debates all over GAF have discussed this idea that you cater to the hardcore first to get your base as they are the early adopters. After that market is saturated, you target the less core audience, or your 'casual' players.

Multiple arguments list Sony as doing the right thing going after the core with the PS4, then likely transitioning into the casual market after core penetration.

Since that marketing concept makes sense to justify PS4's life cycle, why are people hating Microsoft for doing that exact thing with the 360?

Microsoft saw stagnation in the core market and branched out with Kinect, downloadable games and media content to increase their market share. We really expect these companies to focus on only the core market? Either company does that and these consoles don't exist.

Microsoft followed the same path with the 360 that Sony used with PS. Good first party support, awesome third party support, aim for the casuals when the price of the console drops. To succeed they also need to beat Sony in other ways. Namely online, features, and media options. In doing so they decimated Sony's marketshare in the US and UK. The PS4 appears to be heading along that same exact path. It's got a Kinect of its own shipped in every box to appeal to casuals down the road when the price drops. Microsoft's plan appears to be different this time. They look like they want to cut out the waiting period and instead attract the casuals from day 1, along with core gamers.

Talking about only digital games, Im asking if those game will not require online conection.

Sony already stated an online connection won't be required to play them. I'd imagine it's the same way they handle digital purchases now. As long as the license is on the PS4, you can play it.

 

[Erimriv]

Yep they might surprise everybody, they just need to put Steve Ballmer on the stage announcing the price:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-8IufkbuD0

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

After, the Wii U and PS4 rumors and speculations threads - I thought people would learn not to trust GAF'ers and their "sources".

Apparently many Sony devs did not even know about the increase and GG designed their demo of KZ without the increased specs. I think companies are becoming more and more secretive so inside sources should not be given too much importance.

 

[Alx]

Microsoft's plan appears to be different this time. They look like they want to cut out the waiting period and instead attract the casuals from day 1, along with core gamers.

That's a likely scenario, but it's still too soon to say when we don't know what kind of games and features will be available at launch, or even the price of the console itself...

 

[XtremeXpider]

After, the Wii U and PS4 rumors and speculations threads - I thought people would learn not to trust GAF'ers and their "sources".

Kotaku and Edge "sources" said the same about next Xbox.

 

[Baconsammy]

Apparently many Sony devs did not even know about the increase and GG designed their demo of KZ without the increased specs. I think companies are becoming more and more secretive so inside sources should not be given too much importance.

Except Sony's plan to bump it to 8 gig did leak. We knew about that a couple weeks ago. The conference confirmed that they were going through with the change. Until the leak we didn't know they were even contemplating it. Obviously neither did devs.

Kotaku and Edge "sources" said the same about next Xbox.

You can feel Kotaku's reticence to believe SuperDaE's claims in the latest article about him that they put up. I assume that's because some of the things he's said are being contradicted directly by people in a current position to know far more than a hacker would. It may be that he's not lying, but rather just has no clue about present-day plans.

 

[sangreal]

No. It means the Xbox 360 did really fucking well as opposed to the Xbox and finally got a good bit of marketshare. They didn't crush the PS3. In the end, they did on par with the PS3 launching a year later.

They certainly did in the US.

 

[Arkage]

Multiple arguments list Sony as doing the right thing going after the core with the PS4, then likely transitioning into the casual market after core penetration.

Since that marketing concept makes sense to justify PS4's life cycle, why are people hating Microsoft for doing that exact thing with the 360?

I think people are more worried about MS becoming the next Wii, which is to say consistently focusing on casuals the majority of the time with the marketing and new core IPs (think of a true MS Kinect series of "Wii-Sports/Fit/etc instead of their current half-ass approach to it). I don't recall seeing arguments saying Sony will transition to casual. I think it'll be more like an 80/20 split through most of the PS4's life, since it was pretty much that during PS3s. We see two new core IPs launching on PS3 this year and another GOW - the very definition of staying focused on core. This is especially true when Tretton thinks casuals on phones/tablets will actually transition to core games on consoles, not the other way around.

Of course, whether Sony can stay financially successful with this strategy is hard to say. I hope they can.

 

[Biggzy]

Yep they might surprise everybody, they just need to put Steve Ballmer on the stage announcing the price:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-8IufkbuD0

Steve Ballmer really is a car salesman acting as a CEO of a huge corporation lol.

 

[Baconsammy]

Steve Ballmer really is a car salesman acting as a CEO of a huge corporation lol.

Don't make him mad.

 

[XtremeXpider]

I don't know how MS will handle all the negativity around next Xbox. There are not any positive news or rumor about Durango, and I think it is not good for a product.

 

[Boss Man]

Which feature personally blew you away?

Talking to a friend while I watch them play a game, and then having the ability to seamlessly jump in and help them. That's brilliant.

Trying a game immediately without demo "slices" and being able to play a digital purchase right off the bat are very nice features. The sleep function is something that I desperately wanted but had no idea.

All of the sharing, uploading, and streaming aspects are going to be very nice and it's obvious that people are interested in this sort of thing if you take a glance at gaming channels on YouTube. To have it all integrated is going to be one of the fundamentally "next-gen" things about PS4 (and probably Xbox too). Taking it a step or two further with what I mentioned above is what blew me away.

 

[neptunes]

I don't know how MS will handle all the negativity around next Xbox. There are not any positive news or rumor about Durango, and I think it is not good for a product.

Pretty hard to curb that considering they haven't revealed the thing yet.

 

[Baconsammy]

Talking to a friend while I watch them play a game, and then having the ability to seamlessly jump in and help them. That's brilliant.

I'll believe that part when I see it. I doubt it will work well. My favorite features were in-game text-chat, live video streaming, always-recording video, instant-on, sleep mode, and the brilliant approach to playing downloadable games instantly. Contrast that with what we have now on PS3/360/Wii U. Night and day.

Pretty hard to curb that considering they haven't revealed the thing yet.

"Hey that thing you haven't acknowledged the existence of is said to be awful. How do you respond?"

 

[harSon]

I don't know how MS will handle all the negativity around next Xbox. There are not any positive news or rumor about Durango, and I think it is not good for a product.

This literally makes zero sense.

Not only is the negativity surrounding the next Xbox pretty much self contained within the most hardcore of the hardcore, but as you said, it's based on rumors. How exactly are negative rumors going to effect Microsoft once they actually unveil the console and replace the rumors with actual facts?

 

[Biggzy]

Don't make him mad.

Ballmer is going to Hulk smash me, isn't he?

 

[Boss Man]

I'll believe that part when I see it. I doubt it will work well.

I get the feeling it's something that they're serious about, because I read part of one of these interviews where they were mentioning the visibility power of this feature in particular. That in participating in a friend's game that you don't even own, you're getting a great introduction to that game.

 

[Baconsammy]

I get the feeling it's something that they're serious about, because I read part of one of these interviews where they were mentioning the visibility power of this feature in particular. That in participating in a friend's game that you don't even own, you're getting a great introduction to that game.

To do that will require Gaikai streaming of PS4 games. They haven't even nailed down yet how they're going to handle streaming old titles. I imagine remote-play is future endeavor and not anything we'll see soon. Unless I'm completely misreading how they intend to implement it.

Ballmer is going to Hulk smash me, isn't he?

Or kill you in a drive-by:

 

[thehypocrite]

Sure they might suprise a lot of people, hopefully in a good way.

 

[XtremeXpider]

This literally makes zero sense.

Not only is the negativity surrounding the next Xbox pretty much self contained within the most hardcore of the hardcore, but as you said, it's based on rumors. How exactly are negative rumors going to effect Microsoft once they actually unveil the console and replace the rumors with actual facts?

What I mean is, if a product have only negative news/rumors for months before launch, I think it can hurt it, even if the product is not as bad as news and rumors said.

 

[Boss Man]

What I mean is, if a product have only negative news/rumors for months before launch, I think it can hurt it, even if the product is not as bad as news and rumors said.

Rumors aren't usually picked out of thin air, they're based on what people think / have heard about something. If the next Xbox is unveiled and it's not Kinect focused, weaker spec, always-online, etc... then people aren't going to randomly be negative about the next Xbox being always-online, etc...

 

[Alx]

What I mean is, if a product have only negative news/rumors for months before launch, I think it can hurt it, even if the product is not as bad as news and rumors said.

There will be months between E3 and the release of both consoles... all rumors and speculations will be long forgotten when the official marketing campaign will start.
There were a lot of rumors and even changes of plan before the reveal of the 360 and the PS3, and what people remembered in the end was what was shown on the final hardware.

 

[harSon]

What I mean is, if a product have only negative news/rumors for months before launch, I think it can hurt it, even if the product is not as bad as news and rumors said.

Maybe if the system were unveiled and a few months from release, but that's not the case. The Xbox is likely 8-9 months away and Microsoft still has the console unveiling specific conference and e3 to shape the narrative regarding its system.

 

[DEADEVIL]

Kinect sales have pretty much dropped off a cliff, it pulled a Wii and was the "it" toy for one holiday season. Since then it has been a joke. Kinect Star Wars, Steel Battalions, Fable Journey, etc. I hope they improve it's usefulness next gen, or they will have to compete the old fashioned way, selling to real gamers and not fly by night casuals.

False.

Kinect has only been out for 2 years and 3 month and averaged 12 million Kinects sold a year.

What sales 'Cliff' are you talking about ?

So Kinect is a joke because of Star Wars Kinect which outsold every single Sony release in retail last year. So does that mean that Playstation game sales fell of a cliff?

You are pretending it only sold for 'One' holiday season, but it is a fact that Kinect sold a million units on Black friday the following year. You might want to revise your statement.

You got Rare's Kinect Sports that is 5 million plus in two years with the sequel the very next year over 2 million. You have 10 games that are over a million sold on Kinect when you can't name one game Move game that sold over a million.

Kinect is for the casual just like the Wii. Which is why the 100 million install of the Wii is now turned into a JUST DANCE machine.

Unfortunately for the current Wii-U, Just dance's #2 selling crowd is now on the 360, which sold over a million in it's Kinect debut and the last one barely sold on either the Wii-U or the PS3.

Kinect has been a flat-out success for MS. It's the #1 motion control peripheral right now and they are improving it next gen.

With Nintendo unable to counter Kinect and the upgrade of the system, the migration of the casual crowd to the next gen may have a shot to still lean toward MS.

 

[vg260]

I've heavily invested in the 360 this gen, and despite the RROD fiasco, have been fairly pleased, but Sony has been upping their game as of late, and I feel like maybe I invested too much. I still have a stockpile of MS points and Live cards from sales I feel like I'm never gonna use (esp. w/ RB DLC ending), and the idea of paying any more for Live is dead to me. Maybe, I'll end up selling them at cost, cause I feel like I shouldn't have counted on carrying htem into next-gen. So if anything they will surprise me, because Sony has impressed me, and I'm expecting the worst from MS.

 

[szaromir]

Quite possibly one of the best RPGs I ever played. You sir.....can shut it.

Lost Odyssey is a good (but flawed) game, but it was clearly developed in an attempt to attract the Final Fantasy fanbase. It didn't diverge from FF6-FF10 formula in any meaningful way.

 

[Hindle]

I'd also speculate that few on here played the majority of the Sony exclusives released lately or if they did they moved on quick.

The ones I'm thinking.

Socom 4
Twisted Metal
StarHawk
Playstation All Stars
Ratchet and Clank All 4 one.
Motorstorm Apocalipse

I've seen may negative comments for the games they played as well, UC 3, Resistance 3 had a divisive reception.

 

[Boss Man]

False.

Kinect has only been out for 2 years and 3 month and averaged 12 million Kinects sold a year.

What sales 'Cliff' are you talking about ?

So Kinect is a joke because of Star Wars Kinect which outsold every single Sony release in retail last year. So does that mean that Playstation game sales fell of a cliff?

Not sure you understand what it means for something to fall off a cliff. He's saying that sales slowed dramatically, and they did. Average sales over the device's lifespan say absolutely nothing about that.

http://www.geekwire.com/2013/microsoft-24m-kinect-sensors-sold-xbox-live-reaches-46m-members/
Although it looks to me like that drop coincides with the overall drop in industry sales, and is not just something specific to Kinect. Are the casuals tired of it though? It's hard to say, we really won't know until it's put to the test.

I'd also speculate that few on here played the majority of the Sony exclusives released lately or if they did they moved on quick.

The ones I'm thinking.

Socom 4
Twisted Metal
StarHawk
Playstation All Stars
Ratchet and Clank All 4 one.
Motorstorm Apocalipse

I've seen may negative comments for the games they played as well, UC 3, Resistance 3 had a divisive reception.

I'd speculate that you haven't, because on that list there is only one bad game (the R&C spin-off), maybe two (PS All Stars had low production values). Just because Sony's exclusives don't sell as well per-title doesn't mean that they aren't good games. In fact, one of the problems with their sales is probably specifically due to the saturation of good games. There's also been a tremendous problem with their marketing in the U.S. this generation.

You're always going to get some minority negative reception on GAF for big games. Halo 4 has a large share of that as well.

 

[Seventy5]

They would surprise me if they didn't make the next xbox a Kinect-fest. I signed on to 360 day one, but I am done paying for online, and their first party stuff hasn't done anything for me other than Gears 3. I won't be going for the next MS machine. I think it's going to be a microtransaction, paywalled, casual app-fest with maybe some moneyhat exclusives. I think their unfounded confidence with Surface is an indication of what to expect from their next console, and even if I am wrong, they have soured my opinion this gen and I am out.