Maybe general moviegoers, but movie enthusiast often prefer indie films over big productions. They are less snobby than video game enthusiasts and that says a lot.
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Indie Games:why do gamers disregard them when it comes to a system's library?
- Thread starter Kimawolf
- Start date
Maybe general moviegoers, but movie enthusiast often prefer indie films over big productions. They are less snobby than video game enthusiasts and that says a lot.
See my edit:
EDIT: There's also the difference between a love for a certain medium and a blanket love of everything in that medium. If I said "I love every single film" or even "I love every *insert genre here* film" I'd probably get some backlash for it.
LordRaptor
Member
"Indie fans" don't assume whatever gets given out free in a PS+ subscription represents the entirety of a product and will rightfully challenge someones assertions that a thing is true when it demonstrably is not.
Someone posting on a forum of music lovers is rightfully going to get some "What the actual fuck" responses if they claim guitars are terrible and anything with a guitar in it is bad music
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
Yea man cause thats the only place I've seen or played indies before. I don't have internet access or friends or twitch or YouTube. It must be ps plus coloring my judgement.. ya got me.
What? Because most people like the sound of guitar (I like the sound of guitars)? If you don't like the sound of guitars, how the hell are you going to like music with guitars in it? Sure, maybe there will be a few exceptions but I don't think it's wrong for that person to say they don't like music with guitars in general (just cause there may even be exceptions doesn't make their statement untrue about not liking music with guitar. Just cause there are some they like doesn't mean in general they like that type of music. I mean I'm not a polka fan but I'm pretty sure I heard one polka song I like... do I now like polka just cause I heard one song I did like?).
I mean the only WTH I'd think of about not liking guitars is that I really like the sound myself and can't comprehend not liking the sound. That does not mean that some one who doesn't like the sound is invalid in their opinion or only is saying so cause they are shallow. It just means I have a very different opinion/experience than them when listening to guitars.
And btw, saying I don't like indies isn't me saying indies are bad games (They're not games I like. That's not the same as a bad game). Just like some one who says he doesn't like guitar or music with guitar is necessarily saying music with guitars is bad. But when you say you don't like indies you instantly get people jumping on you about how shallow you are (how dare you not like it?!). That's what most of us are getting annoyed at in htis thread that are arguing about not liking indies. This very snobby attitude that very much feels like, "You're not a true gamer/you're shallow/you're a console warrior/you don't know what you're talking about" just cause you happen not to like indies in general (You can even point out that you aren't going to dislike a game just cause it's an indie but in general you don't like indies but that's not good enough... you're not allowed to not like indies apparently. At least not without getting insulted).
Look at No Man's Sky. Without Sony's money, that's an indie title released on Steam.
Now that I've actually written that out, I have no idea what conclusion to come to. Indie games cover lots of genres? Non indie games are defined mostly by marketing or team size? We need a new definition of non-AAA to get rid of the association that "indie" currently has?
I have no idea.
Now that I've actually written that out, I have no idea what conclusion to come to. Indie games cover lots of genres? Non indie games are defined mostly by marketing or team size? We need a new definition of non-AAA to get rid of the association that "indie" currently has?
I have no idea.
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
ok your edit is my point. You can comphend that they mean they don't love all indies just some. Probably the majority that they have seen/ played. Yet you can't understand that same sentiment in reverse. Yes I've liked a handful of indies but the majority I've played or watched are trash so I'm gunna go with that and say I don't like them. With the way u guys talk I would need to drink every knock off brand of soda in the world to say i don't like soda. But I can only drink Pepsi and say I love soda An that's fine.
It's not the same sentiment because, again, saying you love/like indie games implies that you are at least willing to be open about every one that comes your way. Saying you dislike something so insanely broad implies inherent ignorance, so when you say "the majority I've played or watched are trash" yet don't give context to it I have to wonder how many you've played, for how long, what indies have you played? When you make a statement that differs so heavily from the norm then the burden of proof is on you to back it up which is why people are "piling on" you and not, say, Pizza.
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
YOU i like you. We should get together and not play indies one day.
LordRaptor
Member
.
Maybe the air up there on your high horse is so thin you're forgetting what you've said.
Nobody gives a fuck what games you do or do not like.
People do give a fuck if things they like are ignorantly dismissed at a stroke with some high handed sweeping generalisation
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
ok but what about my post saying I AM willing to be open with ones that aren't in genres I dislike. Again I say give me some recommendations. Instead I got guff because my tastes don't match up with others.
martincrimson87
Banned
Because, lets not ignore the elephant in the room here: most console players only play a handful of games which tend to be the most popular like FIFA , COD or GTA. Those make the bulk of console sales and are always among the best selling games. AAA production costs, sold in retail stores and with massive marketing budgets.
Of course, there can be exceptions like Minecraft, Rocket League or some others. I believe other factor is that indie games are not shown all the time through mass media like the examples I included above. For that regard, there's little knowledge about these types of games.
PC is a different animal because I have the idea that PC gamers have to "look out" for their games, which encourages a higher degree of "word of mouth" purchasing strategies while the console audience is being told which are the biggest releases to come and purchase by magazines, major gaming websites and conferences like E3.
Of course, there can be exceptions like Minecraft, Rocket League or some others. I believe other factor is that indie games are not shown all the time through mass media like the examples I included above. For that regard, there's little knowledge about these types of games.
PC is a different animal because I have the idea that PC gamers have to "look out" for their games, which encourages a higher degree of "word of mouth" purchasing strategies while the console audience is being told which are the biggest releases to come and purchase by magazines, major gaming websites and conferences like E3.
1. There is a lot of crap indie games out there as well. let's not pretend they're all good games. As people like to point out it's a huge amount of games to be looking at. There is going to be a lot of objectively crap games.
2. And figure of speech, it's easier to say crap than it is to say games I'm not interested in (which I then in that statement proceeded to clarify right after and point out what I do is look at the ratio of ones I am disinterested in to ones I am interested in... funny how you ignored that part but thank you for leaving it in the quote you quoted at least). Also note the "crap" in quotes... I put those quotes there for a reason (I was kinda hoping people would get the implication that I was not necessarily calling them crap but the idea is that games I don't like).
3. You also missed an earlier post I did in this thread where I said I think indies are important/good and I do think it is good they allow experimentation and new things to be tried but I just don't like them. But sure, cherry pick only one part where I put crap in quotes.
Astral Dog
Member
Its a budget thing. Also. Recognizable franchises will never be compared to low tier indie games
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
Indie games are great when you are tire of mainstream games, they provide many niche variety that AAA can't offer. But that's only for people tire of mainstream AAA games, most people only play a few hours per week, mainstream and indie are both new idea for them, of course they will choose the one with bigger budget.
chekhonte
Member
For me it's that there are hundreds of bad indie games to every great one. Even in the AAA space most of them are at least enjoyable and the most you can say about them is that you're tired of a specific experience since there are few experimental AAA games.
Some of my favorite games are were made by independent developers but it's hard to tell which ones I'm going to like since they just all get shoveled into a market place and these days a lot of them don't even get covered by most sites that talk/write about games.
Even on places like Neogaf and some indie game bubbles up from the muck and people start talking about it a liking it I can't tell if it's a flavor of the month or an enduring game.
Some of my favorite games are were made by independent developers but it's hard to tell which ones I'm going to like since they just all get shoveled into a market place and these days a lot of them don't even get covered by most sites that talk/write about games.
Even on places like Neogaf and some indie game bubbles up from the muck and people start talking about it a liking it I can't tell if it's a flavor of the month or an enduring game.
I did that exact thing here:
Yet you ignored it in favour of your "but what about people who like indie games!" rhetoric. So yeah, I'll ask the question in the quote again and I expect an answer this time.
Even then, dismissing not only an entire genre but an entire perspective is not what I'd call "willing to be open," but I'd say that's beside the point.
LordRaptor
Member
Nobody in this topic is saying all indie games are good.
People are saying in this topic all indie games are shovelware.
People are saying in this topic all games on a sidescrolling 2D plane are equivalent and can be ignored.
People making ridiculous sweeping generalisations - generalisations to the point of irrational prejudice - in this topic are being pressed on those generlisations.
If you want to believe that being pressed on those sweeping generalisations is because of "indie elitism", go ahead and believe that.
People are saying in this topic all indie games are shovelware.
People are saying in this topic all games on a sidescrolling 2D plane are equivalent and can be ignored.
People making ridiculous sweeping generalisations - generalisations to the point of irrational prejudice - in this topic are being pressed on those generlisations.
If you want to believe that being pressed on those sweeping generalisations is because of "indie elitism", go ahead and believe that.
I like indies much more on handhelds. I don't know why but I just find them better suited. I think when I play a game on PC, I want the PC to be pushing its limits.
Had loads of indies on PC but I only really played them on Vita. Spelunky, hotline miami, olli olli etc. They can be better than a lot of bigger budget games.
So I'm definitely looking forward to indies on Switch too, should be able to do 3D games a bit better, like thumper.
Had loads of indies on PC but I only really played them on Vita. Spelunky, hotline miami, olli olli etc. They can be better than a lot of bigger budget games.
So I'm definitely looking forward to indies on Switch too, should be able to do 3D games a bit better, like thumper.
Indies are not a genre. You can't even equate not liking the way a guitar sounds to not liking indies, because it'd be the equivalent of saying I don't like every instrument that plays in songs that start with a "T" in the title.
Indies come in every genre, every level of production value, every art style, every graphics engine you can conceive of. They contain every type of gameplay that exists under the sun.
The reason why people with such nonsensical opinions are called out for it is just for that. You can't say "I don't like indie games" without literally meaning "I don't like games, in general." Because if you've liked RPGs, there are great indie RPGs. If you've liked strategy games, there are great indie strategy games. If you like open world games, there are great indie open world games. If you like any genre you can imagine, indies have it.
So then it comes down to: What is this unifying characteristic that makes you believe it's appropriate to classify all indie games as something you don't like? What possible detail can you hone in on that unifies them in some way that makes you universally dismiss them all?
And the only thing that comes close to being in "all" indie titles - and even this is not correct anymore - is that the budget is typically not as large as a AAA title. And do you see how problematic it is to take such an opinion seriously? You have no criticisms of the gameplay, the content, the music or visual style of all indie games, because no such universal criticism exists. So you're down to how much money people spend on development, independent of the quality they churn out at the end of the day.
This is an absurd proposition by any value. It is the definition of anti-intellectual.
This I agree with. I am much more likely to play indie games on my handheld than on my console. I think it's more I see those type of games more suited for playing while on the go or when not trying to fully immerse myself in the experience. But, to tell the truth, can't even tell you why it is, that's just my theory. Most indies I do enjoy I see more as good time wasters and when I play the console I want to be fully into the experience usually rather than just something to entertain me to kill time.
Still wouldn't choose my handheld based on it having a good indie library. But it is nice it has one.
This particular discussion they were comparing not liking 2d scrollers to not liking music with guitars (they were taking an aspect of the game and comparing it to an aspect of music). It was kind of a discussion within the discussion (started by people associating a lot of indies with 2d scrollers and people objecting to people not liking 2d scrollers as a whole). So, the comparison was being used for something a little more specific than indie.
I think using not liking music with guitar is a good comparison there. there is a lot of different genres with guitar but the guitar still is a specific aspect of those genres and if you don't like that aspect, you're not going to like the music with that aspect (but you may even like music of those genres that don't have that aspect or have a different one). Just like 2d side scrolling isn't a genre but it is an aspect of the game and if you don't like it, you're not going to like games with it.
I think that a preference for high production values is similarly valid to, say, genre-based or theme-based ones, and as such I can understand a disinterest in games that are considered indie.
Anybody literally saying that they don't want to play any single game of a given budgetary level isn't thinking things through, of course, but nobody is saying that (as far as I've read) and everyone here uses generalizations all the time when discussing video games in both negative and positive ways.
Anybody literally saying that they don't want to play any single game of a given budgetary level isn't thinking things through, of course, but nobody is saying that (as far as I've read) and everyone here uses generalizations all the time when discussing video games in both negative and positive ways.
Crankshaft
Member
Indie games are on every console, pc and mobile. It's hard to be too excited about a game that will be in a humble bundle or a steam sale for a dollar (exaggeration)
I personally like indie games but I have less time to play games in general so often they have to take a back seat to AAA games. Indie games for me are like a snack, cheap and disposible. Buy them for a low price and play for a few hours and move on. I still think of them as Real games but I don't plan my gaming budget around their release like I would a AAA game.
I personally like indie games but I have less time to play games in general so often they have to take a back seat to AAA games. Indie games for me are like a snack, cheap and disposible. Buy them for a low price and play for a few hours and move on. I still think of them as Real games but I don't plan my gaming budget around their release like I would a AAA game.
Abilidebob
Member
It's quite weird how your excitement for a game is based on its monetary value.
You must REALLY love Train Simulator.
protomouse
Member
I'm not offended, and find nothing wrong with your approach. I'm just stating my recollection of that particular thread.
TDLink
Member
I'll say it again, and I don't know why so many people are oblivious to this point/intentionally ignoring it:
Not everyone likes the same thing.
There are certain genres that the publishers can produce that indies simply can't at this point in time.
There are certain genres that indies produce which publishers have little or rare interest in.
There are also genres that both publishers and indies continue to produce and yet the indies still can't stand up to those bigger productions from even generations ago. For example, I have not seen a RPG on par with the stuff Square was producing in the 90s on PS1 come out of indies even though there are some indie RPGs.
It's good that both indies and publishers exist on a system. Something like Switch only having a lot of indie support is bad as it's lacking those types of games that currently only the publishers can provide. Additionally, most people truly interested in indie games play them on PC, where almost all of them hit earlier and at a less expensive price. This means when it comes to being part of a console library, indie games do tend to "matter less" to many people.
That's okay. And it makes sense.
People who only like big story based/cinematic style games like Tomb Raider or The Last of Us, or want multiplayer online shooters like Overwatch or Call of Duty, aren't wrong for liking those types of games. And it's not wrong that currently indies can't provide those kinds of games.
A system that only has indie support primarily, is missing out on those genres.
Not everyone likes the same thing.
There are certain genres that the publishers can produce that indies simply can't at this point in time.
There are certain genres that indies produce which publishers have little or rare interest in.
There are also genres that both publishers and indies continue to produce and yet the indies still can't stand up to those bigger productions from even generations ago. For example, I have not seen a RPG on par with the stuff Square was producing in the 90s on PS1 come out of indies even though there are some indie RPGs.
It's good that both indies and publishers exist on a system. Something like Switch only having a lot of indie support is bad as it's lacking those types of games that currently only the publishers can provide. Additionally, most people truly interested in indie games play them on PC, where almost all of them hit earlier and at a less expensive price. This means when it comes to being part of a console library, indie games do tend to "matter less" to many people.
That's okay. And it makes sense.
People who only like big story based/cinematic style games like Tomb Raider or The Last of Us, or want multiplayer online shooters like Overwatch or Call of Duty, aren't wrong for liking those types of games. And it's not wrong that currently indies can't provide those kinds of games.
A system that only has indie support primarily, is missing out on those genres.
This isn't true, and just the other week Cosmic Star Heroine released which is easily on par with 90s Square and has a battle system better than almost any of their games, in the 90s or until now.
These things always come down to how hard you are actually looking for what you want.
What about indie open-world games and indie RPGs??
So you'ed rather be a rude lazy asshole then say what you mean.
If you don't say what you mean, you can never mean what you say.
.
TDLink
Member
Cosmic Star Heroine is somewhat on par with what they did in the early 90s on SNES. And I agree it's a good game. It's also a rare exception though for that particular genre.
Regardless, I was specifically talking about the later 90s on PS1 anyways. There are no indie games like Xenogears or Chrono Cross or Final Fantasy IX.
in what way? I mean how hyper specific are we going to go just to be able to exclude indies from games we love? At some point, it becomes literally searching for a thing to find problematic with indies.
God can we talk about how good this post is?
More_Badass
Member
You're missing out if you like RPGs and you haven't played Divinity, Pillars of Eternity, Age of Decadence, Underrail, Tyranny, STALKER, Crusader Kings 2, or Mount & Blade
Aizen.S.Kennedy
Banned
Just wanna quote this because it's 100000% true and some don't seem to understand.
"indie games" is sweeping with a wide brush these days. like take the recent announcement of a game like Thumper coming to Switch... an indie title that doesn't really fit the notion of a pixel art game you can already nab for $5 on steam
so touting a platform as "rife with indies!" is pretty broad. could still mean the library is full of drek or otherwise
so touting a platform as "rife with indies!" is pretty broad. could still mean the library is full of drek or otherwise
Im not even interested in 90% of indie games and many of them are almost mobile games or NES games. Like I love the Binding of Isaac but I'd never be like "Bro get the ps4! It has the binding of Isaac!" When you can just run it on your phone.
The games can be great but they're not big or cool enough looking to try to advertise a console with.
The games can be great but they're not big or cool enough looking to try to advertise a console with.
Ok, look. JRPGs are a genre that isn't tackled by many western developers in the first place, indie or otherwise. You're much more likely to see a western developer make... A western RPG. And you're much more likely to find an indie WRPG, CRPG, dungeon crawler, diablo-like, or roguelike because those are typically western developed genres. Even then, you're here talking about the greatest games ever developed within that genre. Hell, I haven't played a single JRPG that stood up to Final Fantasy IX in the last 17 years, let alone in the burgeoning indie scene. Also, Cosmic Star Heroine is in a league of its own and is a call back to RPGs of the late era SNES and early PSOne, not the early 90s. The soundtrack to that game alone could rival any that I've heard this year.
All that aside, you really need to do some more research:
Hell, even Kemco's mostly passable RPGs are starting to bump up against those limitations with their tiny team:
Are any of these the next Final Fantasy IX? Probably not, but when one of them is, you'll be sleeping on it because it's an indie game.
People sometimes just want a reason to shit on something they don't like/think is different/don't understand. Switch could have every indie game on PS4 but people would say they already played them all on plus even if they only played Binding of Isaac. Switch has a good library so far but like most first years for a system it's not icredibly diverse nor filled with more than a few must have games. Switch has been very well off with weekly releases both big and small, if you want something new to play on it there's something you haven't played before like FAST or a KoF's game. Indies get discredited mostly by people who want every game at 4k, and think indies are only capable of 8bit platformers.
pretty done
Member
uhhh, not sure about those last two being RPGs. Crusader Kings 2 is definitely not an RPG. I thought the proper term was Grand Strategy.
I just have to reemphasize...
THIS is the peak of early 90s SNES RPGs:
THIS is Cosmic Star Heroine:
Just... what??? In what universe is that "somewhat on par"?
Crusader Kings 2 isn't usually called an RPG no, but role playing is exactly what you do in the game, in fact it lets you pick from literally thousands of characters all with different attributes and positions, and offers you a far wider range of options to role play than most RPGs in existence really, something like fallout 4 offers you like 4 dialogue options (lets pretend they are all different) and maybe shoot them in the face, while something like crusader kings 2 lets you marry someone, marry your son to someone, plot to kill someone, go to war with someone, bribe people, get someone in your court to get their claim to the throne, imprison people, execute them, send gifts, change laws, make banquets and so on.
Mount & Blade is straight up RPG, it has all the staples of the genre, you get to pick a character, you get to level up, manage inventory, pick dialogue options, take quests, sell and buy stuff, I see absolutely no reason why it wouldn't be considered an RPG.
More_Badass
Member
CK2 is basically a grand strategy/RPG hybrid, and it's on heavy on the RPG side.