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Lionhead Studios and Press Play closed. Fable legends cancelled.

It's really hard to describe but based on my experience playing the game, it just felt like if it released these year it would be thrased beyond belief by fans of fable and non fans, it just wasn't a fun game.

I have said it earlier but I have heard from multiple sources who were Fable fans tgat have said it was not a good game and not what they would want from another Fable game.

Hell most of us said that 2 years ago when it was shown off
 

etta

my hard graphic balls
No, I'm thinking that Microsoft has mismanaged their European Xbox division since before the Xbox One launch. And they will continue to do so until the end of Xbox.

#Tier2
Errrr, I dunno, I fail to see how the studios' location has to do anything with it. A studio making games isn't exactly the same as a market to sell to.
I think they would have closed Lionhead if they were a US studio just the same.
 
None of it is developed in house. I mean cool for them I guess, but its still not the same in terms of legacy. They dont even own all of those IPs.

I am getting to the point I'm not sure how people defend MS anymore. They buy studios, run them into the ground, and close them. Over and over and over again. They can throw money at Tomb Raider but cant develop a traditional Fable 4? Even though 2 and 3 sold MILLIONS of copies?

MS has no commitment to gaming, thats clear as day. Sure all companies are in it for the $$$ but Sony and Nintendo at least give the impression they are committed to strengthening the industry itself. MS simply does not care, which isn't surprising as gaming is a tiny tiny fraction of their revenue

What does it matter if they are developed in-house or not? They own all but one of those IPs, so what's the difference to legacy? What it is is that it's not what we are used to. Gamers want companies to own first party studios. Gamers want studios to pump money into first party IPs. Gamers want "exclusives!". Because that's just the way it's always been, with no regard for how the industry has changed. Let's not act like you are seeing some of this same stuff with Sony, where people have been complaining about their first party output for the last 2 years while they cut marketing deals with major third party releases like Destiny or Street Fighter V.
 

tfur

Member
Spencer and Greenberg driving the Xbox into the ditch. Nothing really surprises me about this happening. I actually expect Nadella to sweep house even more.
 

Nokterian

Member
Yoooooooow this came out of nowhere. Sorry to say but fable legends wasn't fable to me a shame to see Lionhead go though made my favorite Black & White 1 and 2 game and The Movies.
 

Papacheeks

Banned
Your point about them not being truly invested, I'm starting to believe that and this is someone who he's been there since 2003. When you think about it, some fans have gone elsewhere (I always buy PlayStation/Nintendo anyway as I'm fan of that too) and can you blame them? As a Xbox fan I found myself more critical than positive as time has passed over the years and it comes to a point where you ask yourself, why bother ?

This is why 360 was my last XBox console. Scalebound was the only thing making me want to get a xbox this gen. Since that's coming to PC why even bother?
 

oti

Banned
I can see MS wanting to move from a developer to mostly publisher (via deals) and distributor (with Win10 Store). Maybe there's huge internal struggle between people defending the Xbox hardware business and others seeing the numbers and thinking it's not good enough. That and Spencer's comments about unification and hardware revision I can totally see MS abandoning Xbox hardware and maybe license it out (like Steam boxes) with Win 10 pre-installd and Store etc.

And this is Microsoft we're talking about. They can do a 180 if they want. They aren't like Sony or Nintendo, games aren't their biggest money makers.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Errrr, I dunno, I fail to see how the studios' location has to do anything with it. A studio making games isn't exactly the same as a market to sell to.
I think they would have closed Lionhead if they were a US studio just the same.
There's some bad juju happening at UK studios though, or maybe their closures are just most visible. Both Lionhead and Liverpool Studios somehow seemed so stacked with talent that they should have been safe, but obviously they were not safe.
 
I can see MS wanting to move from a developer to mostly publisher (via deals) and distributor (with Win10 Store). Maybe there's huge internal struggle between people defending the Xbox hardware business and others seeing the numbers and thinking it's not good enough. That and Spencer's comments about unification and hardware revision I can totally see MS abandoning Xbox hardware and maybe license it out (like Steam boxes) with Win 10 pre-installd and Store etc.

And this is Microsoft we're talking about. They can do a 180 if they want. They aren't like Sony or Nintendo, games aren't their biggest money makers.

Games are not sony's biggest money maker either.
 
Some people are really exaggerating here though. Let's not forget how MS has really changed things around after a bad start with the Xbox One. Kinect is nowhere to be seen for gaming which is a damn good thing. Xbox One has been turned into a damn nice system for games and with Phil Spencer as the boss you can be sure he'll be focusing on games like he's been doing ever since he became boss and as I said before I am sure at E3 we'll see proof of that.

Yes it's fucked up that a game gets cancelled and ever worse that two studios are closed but let's not act like people actually were stoked for Fable Legends. It really wasn't what the fans were asking for. Now did MS force Lionhead to make Legends or did they want to make it themselves, we don't know. Press Play I am most shocked about.
 

00ich

Member
Errrr, I dunno, I fail to see how the studios' location has to do anything with it. A studio making games isn't exactly the same as a market to sell to.
The studio is culturally most compatible with the market of it's location and therefore has has the best chances of success there. Plus better local coverage and networking with the press.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
God damn, can't imagine what it's like, a normal day at the studio and then suddenly "Hey guys we're shutting your studio down have a nice day"
 

Durante

Member
This isn't just bad for all the people directly affected (though that's obviously the primary factor), it's also a bit sad due to the various UE4 enhancements contributed by Lionhead (of course, those will remain at least, so that's something for the programmers involved with the canned project to know that it wasn't completely in vain).
 

mcrommert

Banned
I can see MS wanting to move from a developer to mostly publisher (via deals) and distributor (with Win10 Store). Maybe there's huge internal struggle between people defending the Xbox hardware business and others seeing the numbers and thinking it's not good enough. That and Spencer's comments about unification and hardware revision I can totally see MS abandoning Xbox hardware and maybe license it out (like Steam boxes) with Win 10 pre-installd and Store etc.

And this is Microsoft we're talking about. They can do a 180 if they want. They aren't like Sony or Nintendo, games aren't their biggest money makers.

I think they will always publish an xbox box of their own

But i don't think the rest of this is so far fetched. There are few advantages of in house dev games and financially they are a huge burden. As third party exclusives have disappeared the burden has fallen to the platform holder to build up the platform. As we have seen this gen, most of the first party games (excluding nintendo with their unusual position) have not been good.
 

etta

my hard graphic balls
The studio is culturally most compatible with the market of it's location and therefore has has the best chances of success there. Plus better local coverage and networking with the press.
In that case they would have relocated them to the US if their location had anything to do with the decision to close them down.
 
What does it matter if they are developed in-house or not? They own all but one of those IPs, so what's the difference to legacy? What it is is that it's not what we are used to. Gamers want companies to own first party studios. Gamers want studios to pump money into first party IPs. Gamers want "exclusives!". Because that's just the way it's always been, with no regard for how the industry has changed. Let's not act like you are seeing some of this same stuff with Sony, where people have been complaining about their first party output for the last 2 years while they cut marketing deals with major third party releases like Destiny or Street Fighter V.

Sure, we are seeing less titles because games are more expensive to make. Its like that from everyone including EA and Activision and Ubisoft.

But MS are not investing anything into their brand or their future. What they are just going to forever pay for other people to make games for them? The fans want that? Doubtful. And if good will keeps slipping for MS in the Industry those 3rd parties are just going to keep coming back?

If you want Forza, Gears, or Halo only, then cool you can get them on the Xbox. But you can also get them on PC (other than Halo for now) and thats about it. And what happens when Gears stops selling? When Forza stops selling? When Halo stops selling?

We've seen what happens, MS drives the studio into the ground and closes them and cancels their games. Thats MGS legacy
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
This isn't just bad for all the people directly affected (though that's obviously the primary factor), it's also a bit sad due to the various UE4 enhancements contributed by Lionhead (of course, those will remain at least, so that's something for the programmers involved with the canned project to know that it wasn't completely in vain).

It'd be cool if Epic scooped up some of the talent.
 

Alebrije

Member
RIP. Gaming is changing

Yep but Microsoft is moving different

Gaming with consoles as we traditionally know what a console means is still a very attractive market for companies like Nintendo and Sony

A market that consumes 50 million consoles
is great for a company like Sony , I meam I am pretty sure their second best selling hardware pales compared to PS4

For Nintendo is even more important since basically they just work on videogames , a console that could sell 20 millions on a profit would be great for them.

Microsoft no, the console market and in general videogame one pales compared to Windows and other bussiness. Even on a profitable level the profit is not enought
 

Drek

Member
Liverpool made wipeout. Holy crap it's psygnosis the best f1 games. Etc. People have sweetie thinking. Lionhead made Fable 3 tgat was universally seen as a let down after Fable 2. Then they were working on this. Like I've said it is sad news but the content from a lot of people in this thread is embarassing to read

Lets have an accurate accounting here.

1. Sony closed Liverpool because WipEout had been relegated to a digital distro title and barely that (which makes me incredibly sad to type), Liverpool was in the same metro area as Evolution Studios (Liverpool v. Runcorn) and the new head of SCE UK was from Evo and was working out of Runcorn. They closed Liverpool and moved some of the staff to Evo. Liverpool hadn't delivered a major retail success since the PS1 when WipEout was still relevant. For the entirety of the PS2, PSP, PS3, and early into the PS Vita Sony kept trying to find new niches for Liverpool to fill. Ultimately it didn't work out, in part because another studio was 20 minutes across town, so why pay for two offices? Sony never overtly meddled and gave ample opportunity to find a financially sound footing for the independent studio which never materialized. Evo meanwhile had done so with the MotorStorm franchise and looked like the safer bet in the Liverpool metro area. Choice was made for them.

2. Microsoft bought Lionhead shortly into the first Xbox's lifespan. Fable 1 was already well on it's way as an exclusive title. The purchase included Big Blue Box, the small satellite of Lionhead that started the concept of Fable up in the first place. So they got Fable out and immediately started on Fable 2 for the next platform, Xbox 360. It did pretty well despite some quality issues. Then Fable 3, again did pretty well despite some quality issues. At that point MS had introduced Kinect and it looked like an early breakout for the X360, so suddenly Lionhead were making some Kinect games instead of working on Fable 4 for the Xbox One like their money making schedule would otherwise require of them. A short while later a large amount of the founding core of Lionhead, including Peter Molyneux and the ex-Bullfrog staff who started Big Blue Box left. A layoff follows shortly thereafter. A few months after that we hear about Fable Legends, a cross platform F2P take on the Fable universe.

Sony spent about a decade trying to find a viable niche for Liverpool making what they were great at making. Unfortunately gamer tastes have changed and futuristic racers are no longer big sellers, or even moderate sellers.

Microsoft took a studio with a proven, bankable IP, required that they make gameplay experiences that fit the MS Games Studios agenda (at the time Kinect), pushed MS corporate culture onto the studios, those two facets of management combined to push out a huge portion of the talent, so instead of trying to get back to the core of what Lionhead had been able to produce they instead make yet another shift chasing another popular blue ocean market (F2P MOBA/beat 'em up types).

If MS had simply kept Lionhead at arm's length and asked them to 1. keep making good Fables games that served the sizable core audience Fable had following 1 and 2 and 2. if another cool idea pops up along the way do up a prototype and let management know there would probably still be an open Lionhead Studios and we'd probably have just gotten Fable 4 this past holiday season.

MS just doesn't get it. The examples are as plentiful as fish in the sea. My personal favorite example at the moment is how MS pushed all their big first party and purchased exclusives with any real marketing penetration into the holiday 2015 window. The big fish did ok but titles like Tomb Raider got gobbled up by the cross platform, heavily advertised, heavily talked about 3rd party juggernauts that take the holiday season every year like clockwork.

Meanwhile Sony is off-schedule releasing their big titles in the spring, summer, and early fall. They're making bank on that strategy (see sales for The Last of Us and Bloodborne for examples) while keeping the calendar full and gamers sated. And this is why (among other things) Sony kicks their ass in hardware sales 10 months out of the year.
 

oti

Banned
I think they will always publish an xbox box of their own

But i don't think the rest of this is so far fetched. There are few advantages of in house dev games and financially they are a huge burden. As third party exclusives have disappeared the burden has fallen to the platform holder to build up the platform. As we have seen this gen, most of the first party games (excluding nintendo with their unusual position) have not been good.

Sure, they could always have a flagship box like Google does with their Chromebooks for instance. I just don't see MS really pushing for more in-house development anymore. And seeing how big of a software guy the MS CEO is I could see them doubling down on the Win 10 Store.
 
You asked for a game which has been canceled close to release. SSM's game was supposed to be revealed at E3 2014 and to release during the Holiday season 2014. It was canceled less then a year before release.

It was not close to release....it never got near in a state to be even announced. Not even close to the same thing.
 

azertydu91

Hard to Kill
You asked for a game which has been canceled close to release. SSM's game was supposed to be revealed at E3 2014 and to release during the Holiday season 2014. It was canceled less then a year before release.

So it's just supposition you say, the fact is nobody knows when it would've been annonced nor released.
 
Sure, we are seeing less titles because games are more expensive to make. Its like that from everyone including EA and Activision and Ubisoft.

But MS are not investing anything into their brand or their future. What they are just going to forever pay for other people to make games for them? The fans want that? Doubtful. And if good will keeps slipping for MS in the Industry those 3rd parties are just going to keep coming back?

If you want Forza, Gears, or Halo only, then cool you can get them on the Xbox. But you can also get them on PC (other than Halo for now) and thats about it. And what happens when Gears stops selling? When Forza stops selling? When Halo stops selling?

We've seen what happens, MS drives the studio into the ground and closes them and cancels their games. Thats MGS legacy

This is ALWAYS what they and everyone else has done. Do you think there are no costs associated with owning and operating a studio? They are paying those people to make their games. Functionally there is no difference to the end user between MS owning the studio making the game or not. That's not to say MS' future plans for their gaming business might not be changing, but that is such a silly thing to be concerned about or try and make into an issue.
 

Floody

Member
In that case they would have relocated them to the US if their location had anything to do with the decision to close them down.

That would probably be more hassle than it's worth, and a lot of people would have probably just left if they did that anyway, as they would have to either leave their family or take them with.
 
Its a bit of a surprise that theyve outight shut down lionhead.... I mean,I expected them to be downsized sigificantly and being kept as a Rare-like studio which would essentially live on due to the name and history while making small projects and overseeing other devs making Fable games....

But yeah...I guess without a Molyneux esque figure in charge and the lack of a large back catalogue of IPs it just wasnt going to happen.

Oh well,I look forward to seeing the ex members hit Kickstarter with spiritual successors to Black and White and The Movies. Hopefully they all land on their feet.
 
Were Fable 2 and Fable 3 sales not solid? Say what you will about pushing the medium and experimenting but it seems to me like a Fable 4 could have been a layup. But Lionhead continued to branch out into more experimental titles (maybe or maybe not on their own volition). Cost of a next gen Fable might have also been pretty prohibitive.
I'm really just bitter because I love the Fable series, even in its missteps. One of the big reasons I purchased an Xbox One.
 
If this was a single player game that could just be released into the wild and not have to worry about support afterwards then I could see them going ahead with just releasing the game and moving on. Since this game is F2P multiplayer it is going to need support and a stream of new content. I can see how it would make sense to kill it before the game launches.

No matter how shitty this way of doing it is it would be even shittier to customers to release the game and let people start sinking money into it only to not support it and cancel the game anyways. Sad day for the folks at Lionhead and fans of the Fable IP.
 

00ich

Member
MS has really changed things around after a bad start with the Xbox One. Kinect is nowhere to be seen for gaming which is a damn good thing. Xbox One has been turned into a damn nice system for games

Killing Kinect was not a damn good thing. Using Kinect to differentiate vs Sony would have been. The "damn nice system" is now very comparable and consumers tend not chose it. So games are the only way to make difference and closing Lionhead instead of just killing Fable Legends or retooling it into a single player game does not inspire confidence in that regard either. They basically threw away their third (?) biggest IP.
 
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