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Lionhead Studios and Press Play closed. Fable legends cancelled.

Would this game not have at least recouped it's dev cost? I find these recent actions pretty weird by Microsoft. I feel more certain thinking they're moving away from console gaming now, at least in its current form.

Regardless though, best of luck to all the people involved, I'm sure veterans like these guys will land on their feet somewhere!
 

Havoc2049

Member
I'm genuinely surprised they still make fable games and the studio has had the luxury of making so many. I don't recall them being big sellers or critically acclaimed in any way.

Fable I-III sold over 12 million copies combined and they reviewed well. Then the motion control Wii/Kinect fad happened and Microsoft had Lionhead make a Kinect game and it was downhill from there.
 
I have a wee bit of sympathy for Phil Spencer, you have to imagine that when the word comes down from above he has to fall in line like everybody else. I suspect that the external pressures of the 'unified windows 10 strategy' is central to every decision that Phil has to make.

Well yes, but the way people excuse Phil from the travesty that was the messaging before the Xbox One launched is asinine as well. He's taken over a bad deal, but he was a part of all of it. I like Phil, I think he is better then Don, but blame should fall on him as well.
 

ST2K

Member
I'm beginning to regret purchasing my XB1. Microsoft really needs to invest in its first party stuff and stop closing studios (or making new studios into boring single franchise studios).
 

Outrun

Member
Could this be a sign that the XBox division is taking a different (bad) approach for the next few years? All this talk of upgradeable consoles... and now this... I mean, what the hell?

I am not reading too much into this.

However, some are talking as if this is proof positive that MS is leaving the console space...

Only time will tell. By I am citing Spencer's for seeing on another Xbox as indication otherwise...
 

00ich

Member
Eh...it seems they are doing fine with the micro transactions system. They will never hit the highs of halo 3 again, but they really don't have to if they keep their core set engaged...and port the games to pc to expand playerbase

It certainly does OK in making it's money back and kept a large player base close to Xbox One.It will still be a great pack in for Xbox One in say two years.
But many seemed to have the expectation that this would help Xbox One ecosystem to get a bit more positive buzz. Like Halo 1,2, and 3 did and like Uncharted seems to do for Sony.
"We have the third most popular shooter exclusively " is miles from being as helpful for MS as "we have the most popular shooter exclusively".
 

mcrommert

Banned
Well they're paying all the development and marketing and distribution costs so if those games bomb that's a significant financial blow.

No different from a game made in house, with a lot of other risks and costs not htere

Media molecule continue to make whacky games like Dreams.

Quantic Dream don't make direct sequels to games but they have continued to make games based on the same gameplay concepts. You want a sequel to beyond two souls? Good thing Detroit is on its way.

Wouldn't be be surprised if we get a sequel to The Order at some point.

Until Dawn will likely get a sequel, the devs have hinted as such but in the mould of a new IP considering how the game plays out - it would be similar to how Quantic Dream work in that sense.

Folklore won't get a sequel since game republic shut down. And before you say anything, they were independent.

The reality is that Sony continues to invest in their IP's and if not the IP itself allow the developers to continue creating titles in similar fashion even if they might have previously failed either critically or commercially. In Microsofts case, it has become pretty clear over the years that commercial success is all that matters to them, and hence their first party is in the situation it finds itself in today.

Think about it, 15 years in the industry and the only titles that are truly synonymous with the brand are Halo, Gears and Forza. Is that really good enough? Considering the IP's they are sitting on, they only have themselves to blame.


And those games will continue to sell terribly. For Sony fostering these studios and their poor selling games makes some sense. For Microsoft it does not...they make real money from other pursuits and they fund games internally to further their platform play.

That platform use to be xbox only. Now it is xbox plus pc.
 
I'm not sure that's true. "Buying" exclusivity is always an expense, owning studios only is if the studio isn't making money.

I know the poster wrote "third party" but I assume people are talking about MS commissioning independent developers to work on MS owned IPs rather than developing the game completely in house. Those arrangements can work well (like with Gears of War) and do come off as safer since they can just refuse to work with the development studio again rather than risking development and closing of an internal studio.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Media molecule continue to make whacky games like Dreams.

Quantic Dream don't make direct sequels to games but they have continued to make games based on the same gameplay concepts. You want a sequel to beyond two souls? Good thing Detroit is on its way.

Wouldn't be be surprised if we get a sequel to The Order at some point.

Until Dawn will likely get a sequel, the devs have hinted as such but in the mould of a new IP considering how the game plays out - it would be similar to how Quantic Dream work in that sense.

Folklore won't get a sequel since game republic shut down. And before you say anything, they were independent.

The reality is that Sony continues to invest in their IP's, and if not in the IP itself they allow the developers to continue creating titles in similar fashion even if they might have previously failed either critically or commercially. In Microsofts case, it has become pretty clear over the years that commercial success is all that matters to them, and hence their first party is in the situation it finds itself in today.

Think about it, 15 years in the industry and the only titles that are truly synonymous with the brand are Halo, Gears and Forza. Is that really good enough? Considering the IP's they are sitting on they only have themselves to blame.

Hard to argue this perspective.
 
The game was really far along in development, too. It's quickly going to become a highly sought-after item for "cutting-room-floor" enthusiasts who want to see the canceled Fable game.

It's really too bad they couldn't make another traditional game in the vein of Fable 2. Whether they were "forced" to do these spinoffs by MS or it was their own decision, sadly it did more harm than good.
 

Chris1

Member
Fable Legends is a game that would be dependant on post launch support. To just release it for the sake of releasing would require that they keep the studio open to support the game. That just wasn't viable.

The type of game it is requires support and updating to keep it going. Perhaps Lionhead wanted another delay and MS didn't want to fund it, you can't really just put a game like that out there and leave it
If it's as good as people said then it should be fairly successful and bring in $ to pay the developers/servers. If it fails then they can just give up and do what they're doing now (close studio & cancel game in a similar way to project spark) not long after release.

Just seems like the worst case scenario is what's already happened so they don't really have anything to lose but potentially have a lot to gain. Unless budget is so tight they can't keep the studio open for another couple of months, but I have a hard time believing that.
 

Outrun

Member
I'm beginning to regret purchasing my XB1. Microsoft really needs to invest in its first party stuff and stop closing studios (or making new studios into boring single franchise studios).


But QB, Halo Wars 2, Crackdown, Sea of Thieves etc is coming....

I don't see where the lack is...

How does the studio closing today affects the overall outlook of Xbox?

I guess if you were aching for Legends.... But Gaf was not exactly on fire with that game.
 

Sealtest

Member
Wow! I can't believe Lionhead is closing. Their games were in my top 10 GOAT. ( Besides the kinect one ).

Feel bad for everyone losing their jobs.
 

cilonen

Member
...and are in discussions with employees about the proposed closure of Lionhead Studios in the UK

Just to say, and apologies if this has been said in this thread - I'm trying to catch up - but this is directly related to UK employment law. Any closure is a 'proposal' until employees have been consulted. Employees are entitled to at least 30 days official 'consultation' on the proposals where they can present counter proposals to the parent company. Depending on how many folks are at Lionhead, this could run to 90 days.

Usually this period results in terms of redundancy being agreed rather than any 'rescue plan' being formed.
 
??? That's not what I said, at al. Insomniac are making ratchet and so is one of the other studios making a game for ps4.

I'm wondering what you meant by the 'leave at any time' comment.

They'd be contracted to develop a game, they'd have to complete that contracted work unless MS pulls funding. So them being third party and being 'able to leave at any time' is irrelevant.
 

neurosyphilis

Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
I argue that neither Sony nor Microsoft first party is all that appealing anymore. Sony hasn't been that great of a first party publisher this generation, and the PS4 has pretty much survived up to this point on third party exclusives and multiplatform releases. Microsoft first party support, although not great, has been recognized as outperforming Sony's output thus far this gen.

It's a shame about Press Play and Lionhead, but they really haven't contributed much this generation anyway. The bigger problem is, a) aside from Nintendo, where did the first party support go? and b) I think, a bigger problem is that Microsoft is itself a software company, above all things, yet they are scaling back on software in support of its games initiative.

I guess game development is a risky business, if the likes of Sony and Microsoft are willing to let third parties carry the burden of risk for their consoles.

Stop with the "Sony too". Most of Sony's first party hasn't even released their big game this gen. We know what to expect from Sony's first party. A lot of diverse games.
 

Krisprolls

Banned
It's over guys. They just give up on gaming. That's what they meant when they said they'll focus on Windows and PC from now on, not on console hardware. Xbox didn't make enough money anymore. Now why would they keep the studios ?
 

Aceofspades

Banned
Media molecule continue to make whacky games like Dreams.

Quantic Dream don't make direct sequels to games but they have continued to make games based on the same gameplay concepts. You want a sequel to beyond two souls? Good thing Detroit is on its way.

Wouldn't be be surprised if we get a sequel to The Order at some point.

Until Dawn will likely get a sequel, the devs have hinted as such but in the mould of a new IP considering how the game plays out - it would be similar to how Quantic Dream work in that sense.

Folklore won't get a sequel since game republic shut down. And before you say anything, they were independent.

The reality is that Sony continues to invest in their IP's, and if not in the IP itself they allow the developers to continue creating titles in similar fashion even if they might have previously failed either critically or commercially. In Microsofts case, it has become pretty clear over the years that commercial success is all that matters to them, and hence their first party is in the situation it finds itself in today.

Think about it, 15 years in the industry and the only titles that are truly synonymous with the brand are Halo, Gears and Forza. Is that really good enough? Considering the IP's they are sitting on they only have themselves to blame.

Completely agree with you.
 

Apathy

Member
May all those that lost jobs land on their feet soon. Guess Microsoft is really cutting some stuff from their budgets now.
 
The game was really far along in development, too. It's quickly going to become a highly sought-after item for "cutting-room-floor" enthusiasts who want to see the canceled Fable game.

It's really too bad they couldn't make another traditional game in the vein of Fable 2. Whether they were "forced" to do these spinoffs by MS or it was their own decision, sadly it did more harm than good.

It would be cool if some modders can figure out how to use the current PC build to at least keep a record of this game in some way.
 

vcc

Member
I'm beginning to regret purchasing my XB1. Microsoft really needs to invest in its first party stuff and stop closing studios (or making new studios into boring single franchise studios).

They're hoping they can confuse you enough with 'ecosystem', 'unified platform', 'app', and'incremental upgrades' that you won't notice the declining in value of owning a XB1.
 

cilonen

Member
Media molecule continue to make whacky games like Dreams.

Quantic Dream don't make direct sequels to games but they have continued to make games based on the same gameplay concepts. You want a sequel to beyond two souls? Good thing Detroit is on its way.

Wouldn't be be surprised if we get a sequel to The Order at some point.

Until Dawn will likely get a sequel, the devs have hinted as such but in the mould of a new IP considering how the game plays out - it would be similar to how Quantic Dream work in that sense.

Folklore won't get a sequel since game republic shut down. And before you say anything, they were independent.

The reality is that Sony continues to invest in their IP's, and if not in the IP itself they allow the developers to continue creating titles in similar fashion even if they might have previously failed either critically or commercially. In Microsofts case, it has become pretty clear over the years that commercial success is all that matters to them, and hence their first party is in the situation it finds itself in today.

Think about it, 15 years in the industry and the only titles that are truly synonymous with the brand are Halo, Gears and Forza. Is that really good enough? Considering the IP's they are sitting on they only have themselves to blame.

Damn straight. I've always seen Gears as Epic's baby and the poster child for UE3 tfirst and foremost though. I guess that UE3 style did become fairly synonymous with the 360 though.
 

wapplew

Member
Nothing wrong with contract third party studio to develop first party game, the different between building internal studio and contract is commitment.
You know someone is commit to gaming when they own game studios. All those studio will need to make game after game to keep studio running.
Contract/hire studio project not nessasry, if the project fail, they just stop making it. One time cost vs long term commitment.
 
No different from a game made in house, with a lot of other risks and costs not htere




And those games will continue to sell terribly. For Sony fostering these studios and their poor selling games makes some sense. For Microsoft it does not...they make real money from other pursuits and they fund games internally to further their platform play.

That platform use to be xbox only. Now it is xbox plus pc.

Yikes at the back handed compliment..not all of them well sell terribly, that's ridiculous. LBP ended up being big and I am sure until dawn did better then expected, there will always be failures but if your trying to push the medium thats normal, thats what seperates MS and Sony. Unless you know the budget and expectations you cannot say anything really. The first uncharted did not sell that well at first..but sony keep pushing it and investing and look what it became.

Media molecule continue to make whacky games like Dreams.

Quantic Dream don't make direct sequels to games but they have continued to make games based on the same gameplay concepts. You want a sequel to beyond two souls? Good thing Detroit is on its way.

Wouldn't be be surprised if we get a sequel to The Order at some point.

Until Dawn will likely get a sequel, the devs have hinted as such but in the mould of a new IP considering how the game plays out - it would be similar to how Quantic Dream work in that sense.

Folklore won't get a sequel since game republic shut down. And before you say anything, they were independent.

The reality is that Sony continues to invest in their IP's, and if not in the IP itself they allow the developers to continue creating titles in similar fashion even if they might have previously failed either critically or commercially. In Microsofts case, it has become pretty clear over the years that commercial success is all that matters to them, and hence their first party is in the situation it finds itself in today.

Think about it, 15 years in the industry and the only titles that are truly synonymous with the brand are Halo, Gears and Forza. Is that really good enough? Considering the IP's they are sitting on they only have themselves to blame.
Agree with this.
 
My god MS.
Media molecule continue to make whacky games like Dreams.

Quantic Dream don't make direct sequels to games but they have continued to make games based on the same gameplay concepts. You want a sequel to beyond two souls? Good thing Detroit is on its way.

Wouldn't be be surprised if we get a sequel to The Order at some point.

Until Dawn will likely get a sequel, the devs have hinted as such but in the mould of a new IP considering how the game plays out - it would be similar to how Quantic Dream work in that sense.

Folklore won't get a sequel since game republic shut down. And before you say anything, they were independent.

The reality is that Sony continues to invest in their IP's, and if not in the IP itself they allow the developers to continue creating titles in similar fashion even if they might have previously failed either critically or commercially. In Microsofts case, it has become pretty clear over the years that commercial success is all that matters to them, and hence their first party is in the situation it finds itself in today.

Think about it, 15 years in the industry and the only titles that are truly synonymous with the brand are Halo, Gears and Forza. Is that really good enough? Considering the IP's they are sitting on they only have themselves to blame.

Also, can't argue with this.
 
I argue that neither Sony nor Microsoft first party is all that appealing anymore. Sony hasn't been that great of a first party publisher this generation, and the PS4 has pretty much survived up to this point on third party exclusives and multiplatform releases. Microsoft first party support, although not great, has been recognized as outperforming Sony's output thus far this gen.

It's a shame about Press Play and Lionhead, but they really haven't contributed much this generation anyway. The bigger problem is, a) aside from Nintendo, where did the first party support go? and b) I think, a bigger problem is that Microsoft is itself a software company, above all things, yet they are scaling back on software in support of its games initiative.

I guess game development is a risky business, if the likes of Sony and Microsoft are willing to let third parties carry the burden of risk for their consoles.

Kinda weird to share this right before this year really sets off. We have Uncharted 4, Horizon, The Last Guardian, and Dreams coming this year. If all of them make it out that's 4 First Party studios releasing a game this year. They also have Sony Santa Monica, Sony Bend, and Sony San Diego working on games right now. Sony First Party isn't going anywhere this gen.
 

shoreu

Member
Surprised, the game feels so complete and looks amazing. But also, not surprised. I mean OK, it's as a set of changes but Evolve showed the format doesn't work, Fable Legends looks, sounds, and plats great, but would have just become Evolve.

I really hope someday, they make a game out of that engine and design because it is beautiful.

It was so different from evolve tho 4 v 1 was only similarity and it worked.
 
The problem with the games you mentioned is that they're niche titles at best, with Conker and Banjoo standing out among the rest by just a little. But with those titles being 3d platformers that have an art style that some may see as "kid friendly" will it really sell to the masses?

Well let us examine the list, shall we

MechAssault
MechWarrior
Crimson Skies
Kameo
Perfect Dark
Conker
Banjoo


1.) MechAssault was one of Xbox's highest scoring games of all-time. It set the standard for Xbox Live and provided a huge boost to the service in the days before Halo 2 redefined what it meant to play multiplayer on consoles. It sold over a million copies. As an Xbox Live launch game. Let that sink in.

2.) MechWarrior. Far from niche, the PC franchise spawned several releases. MechWarroir online F2P is certainly in the spirit of those games but not quite the same and suffers as a result. All-time peak for that game was just north of 4,000 concurrent players. Not bad, but not what the brand was and is capable of.

3.) Crimson Skies was another of Microsoft's highest scoring exclusives of all time. It sold around a million copies. It was Warhawk before there was Warhawk. Considering how big Warhawk became for Sony, just imagine what Crimson Skies could have been if they had stuck with it?

4.) Kameo was perhaps closer to niche than any of the others, as I think it sold around 500,000 copies, but kept in context: it was a launch game for a platform that was supply-constrained. And while its gameplay wasn't as tight as it would have been under Nintendo's watchful eye, it was still quite enjoyable. And who can forget that soundtrack. Games like Kameo serve an underserved audience on a platform that consequently allowed itself to be pigeon holed in a shooter and racing platform paradigm. Diversity is important on a platform for perception and to serve as many audiences with good content as possible. With roughly 500k in sales, there was more foundation to build off of than most games have, but seemingly not the will.

5.) The Perfect Dark franchise is somewhere north of 3 million in sales and its name is synonymous with FPS gaming as we know it today. It's a huge namesake. And while PDZ wasn't especially great, there's no reason to believe that a sequel in the hands of Rare or some other developer couldn't have build another million-seller.

6.) Conker and Banjoo speak to that same audience that Kameo speaks to. An underserved audience that would have been among the most avid supporters of the platform had such games received proper support. Both of those franchises are million-selling franchises and certainly not niche though Conker is a bit less traveled because of his potty mouth. Needless to say, when MS wants to they have no problem making a brand or character into a household name. Ask Master Chief, Cortana, etc.

So no, these aren't niche titles at all, let alone "at best". They are mostly million-selling franchises that had a strong brand behind them and more than enough potential to justify additional efforts and strong backings. Sony has backed worse game franchises for multiple generations (KillZone) yet Microsoft seems opposed to making sequels to games that were among the all-time highest scoring exclusives for their Xbox platform.

They had opportunities to make their own Zelda, maintain their own alternative to all the Sony-owned platformers, to have their own Warhawk/Starhawk, and to have their own truly unique FPS game (there really is nothing else like PD). Instead, they remain in purgatory or dead on the vine. And they have nobody to blame but themselves and their apparent unwillingness to put their full weight behind those franchises and their developers and trust them execute their games without overbearing, "stifling" interference. So here we are.

$0.02
 

Markoman

Member
They're hoping they can confuse you enough with 'ecosystem', 'unified platform', 'app', and'incremental upgrades' that you won't notice the declining in value of owning a XB1.

Nicely said. Yep, funny how in the other thread people are still discussing MS's possible plans for the future, when it's crystal clear that they don't know themselves. All they know: ...want to be Apple.
 

drigosr

Member
I played Fable Legends a couple hours ago. Game still works and it's bigger and better than when the BETA started.

So sad it will never see the light of day again...
 

neurosyphilis

Definitely not an STD, as I'm a pure.
Kinda weird to share this right before this year really sets off. We have Uncharted 4, Horizon, The Last Guardian, and Dreams coming this year. If all of them make it out that's 4 First Party studios releasing a game this year. They also have Sony Santa Monica, Sony Bend, and Sony San Diego working on games right now. Sony First Party isn't going anywhere this gen.

It's 5, don't forget MLB 16 The Show from Sony San Diego.
 

cilonen

Member
Nicely said. Yep, funny how in the other thread people are still discussing MS's possible plans for the future, when it's crystal clear that they don't know themselves. All they know: ...want to be Apple.

It's more schizophrenic than that. Part of them want to be Apple with the cool devices and consumer facing cloud services and part of them want to be IBM with the big data analytics and blue chip corporate services.
 

element

Member
Sad for Press Play and Lionhead. They always made fun games and they were good people. Fable Legends was a fun game, but the F2P market has shifted so many times since it was announced that I personally don't think it would have turned a profit.

It appears that Microsoft is really stacking the deck with big bets that can really show up in the profits of the group. People talk about all the legacy franchises and how MS should be doing more with them, but the return on investment and profits just aren't big enough. It looks like Microsoft tactically is looking at things more like Activision. In spending $25m to maybe make $200m just isn't going to cut it. They would rather spend $150m to make $1b. Even though the investment is higher, the actual risk is lower in that they know the going to sell and hit sales targets.

In the end, it is sad that people at Press Play and Lionhead are going to be out of work. I hope that they all land on their feet and make something great wherever they land next.
 

garyizraw

Banned
Fable Legends Beta closes April 13th

Not surprised with LionHead's demise. Not sure who's idea it was but that kenict shooter they did with Fable was HORRIBLE, and Fable Legends has been delayed for 2 years now. Studio wasn't performing.

Press Play on the other hand, MS you should have invested in those guys.
 
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