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New cartridge based non-emulated "Retro" console being kickstarted!
- Thread starter ultrazilla
- Start date
j^aws
Member
I'd really like something like this that creates its own ecosystem based around physical cartridges and everything endearing about them. I have two main wishes though, namely:
1) Please don't artificially limit this to 8/16bit tech. I would much prefer the limits reached by mid-90s Arcade boards, e.g. Sega ST-V boards or Capcom CPS III boards. Or preferably, hardware more capable that can handle perfect ports from this era.
2) I would love to see sound hardware in the form of early sound synthesis - to give that raw sound. For example, FM synthesis from Yamaha dual OPL2 or OPL3 setup, alongside early Wave synthesis from the likes of Korg, Yamaha, Roland etc... Even demoscene favourites from the Gravis Ultrasound would be fantastic.
1) Please don't artificially limit this to 8/16bit tech. I would much prefer the limits reached by mid-90s Arcade boards, e.g. Sega ST-V boards or Capcom CPS III boards. Or preferably, hardware more capable that can handle perfect ports from this era.
2) I would love to see sound hardware in the form of early sound synthesis - to give that raw sound. For example, FM synthesis from Yamaha dual OPL2 or OPL3 setup, alongside early Wave synthesis from the likes of Korg, Yamaha, Roland etc... Even demoscene favourites from the Gravis Ultrasound would be fantastic.
Dreamwriter
Member
Well, they've specifically used Neo Geo as an example of the types of games it can handle, and a Neo Geo game developer seems onboard, so it definitely should be able to handle mid-90s arcade quality.
ultrazilla
Member
I think they've also secured/been approached by Japanese developer NG
EV.TEAMhttps://www.facebook.com/RETROVGS/posts/831382946930977
Here's one of NG's games: an old school 16 bit side scrolling shooter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2-9Pzyrl5I&feature=youtu.be
Looks ace!
j^aws
Member
That's a good start, however, we are looking at late 80s/early 90s hardware with the Neo Geo - it had legs mainly due to ROM capacity. Those Sega STV/ Capcom CPSIII boards were approaching the peak of that era and a notch above the Neo Geo.
This is a perfect opportunity to release a console that was never released and would be the spiritual successor that didn't follow the path of early 3D consoles...
stan423321
Member
I'm warming up to this thing honestly. There are still some things I would do differently for various reasons, and I mean a lot - not every callback to past makes sense, to be as basic as possible. But with all its flaws, it's still definitely closer to my idea of an interesting niche system than Ouya ever was.
I wonder if the team behind it is approachable for questions from a random nobody right now. Gotta try I guess.
I wonder if the team behind it is approachable for questions from a random nobody right now. Gotta try I guess.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Cow Mengde
Banned
What are the specs for this system? I'd love to see a modern day "Neo Geo" but with an SNES/Genesis library.
Sectorseven
Member
So is it going to work like the old consoles where the cartridge has its own circuitry, or is the cart going to just be a glorified flash drive?
Theonik
Member
It's not flash. And flash also has its own circuitry!
stan423321
Member
Closer to the latter I believe, but it should be said that this doesn't really mean anything. You can put whatever you want in the cartridge, it just has to implement a compatible protocol of communication with the base system.
I lol'ed at this
Will there be a dust flap cover for the cartridge interface?
Keeping a cartridge in the slot will serve as an effective shield against dust affecting the pins. Any change to the original tooling adds significantly to the cost of the console, so at this point, were not inclined to add the extra cost of a dust flap cover.
Are you retaining the Jag handle on the cartridges?
Yes, for a couple of reasons: One, the handle provides functionality needed to properly seat the pins into the console; two, the cost of retooling to remove the handles would be added to the cost of the console. Many collectors prefer to put carts in a display case the clamshell plastic case housing the cartridge (and instruction manual) will have a spine with the games name on it. We will likely have end labels on the cartridges as well.
Might as well call this the Jaguar 2.0
Will there be a dust flap cover for the cartridge interface?
Keeping a cartridge in the slot will serve as an effective shield against dust affecting the pins. Any change to the original tooling adds significantly to the cost of the console, so at this point, were not inclined to add the extra cost of a dust flap cover.
Are you retaining the Jag handle on the cartridges?
Yes, for a couple of reasons: One, the handle provides functionality needed to properly seat the pins into the console; two, the cost of retooling to remove the handles would be added to the cost of the console. Many collectors prefer to put carts in a display case the clamshell plastic case housing the cartridge (and instruction manual) will have a spine with the games name on it. We will likely have end labels on the cartridges as well.
Might as well call this the Jaguar 2.0
j^aws
Member
Are you referring to the specs of this new cartridge system? I don't see anything definite. This is from one of the links:
" There are some retro games coming out, but the graphics are just way too polished. A 2D sprite-based I think thats pretty much where were at. For our console were really zeroing in on that 16-bit era. Thats sort of the sweet spot. Although were working hard on making this console giving the ability to developers to take it further past that. Were in this area of, where do we draw the line? What style do we want developers do we want them to be able to make a PS2-style game, going back to Atari and everything in between? Do we want to draw the line at the PSX?"
They're still looking at where to draw the line.
They can just get the most cost-effective CPU/GPU combo and call it a day. Let the developers draw the line. I think just as important is the sound hardware. As I mentioned above - sound defined this era as much as graphics.
Dreamwriter
Member
BMX Bandit
Member
Wow. Kinda surprised this is getting support. Kickstarter will be really interesting.
stan423321
Member
So far, they got ports of modern retro homebrew at least, then.
What they currently indicate about the system though is no dedicated GPU and FPGA doing its job. This would probably limit the thing's capabilities to something between HD PSX and HD N64 when it would come to polygon drawing department; the sprites-and-tiles approach would probably depend on level of detail chosen by the users, as well as exact FPGA setup.
What they currently indicate about the system though is no dedicated GPU and FPGA doing its job. This would probably limit the thing's capabilities to something between HD PSX and HD N64 when it would come to polygon drawing department; the sprites-and-tiles approach would probably depend on level of detail chosen by the users, as well as exact FPGA setup.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
Hype train full speed ahead!
Theonik
Member
This is what I waited for.
stan423321
Member
I am very surprised by the positivity for Pie Solar. Well, everybody has their anti-consensus favorite I guess.
j^aws
Member
I actually like this FPGA setup.
What if these cartridges contain code to reconfigure this FPGA, or multiple FPGAs, to mimic chipsets in consoles or arcade hardware from this era, including custom chips for sound and graphics? That would be sweet - the possibilities are encouraging.
This is exactly what you will do when you build a game.
stan423321
Member
Yeah, that's the entire reason they're including a* FPGA. I'm personally more interested in "unorthodox" uses of the thing (for example, a Doom-like renderer implemented in hardware), but I can't deny that it's an elegant solution if you already have a Genesis game in works or something.
* I refuse to pronounce it differently than ffffpeejay.
* FPGA. I'm personally more interested in "unorthodox" uses of the thing (for example, a Doom-like renderer implemented in hardware), but I can't deny that it's an elegant solution if you already have a Genesis game in works or something.* I refuse to pronounce it differently than ffffpeejay.
OrbitalBeard
Member
DAMN, that's actually really impressive.
I wonder if WM's in-development beat 'em up could come to this as well? That'd be awesome.
Cow Mengde
Banned
I read that part. I figured they have the specs by now, but I guess not.
What do you guys want to console's resolution to be? 1080p for 2D games wouldn't be cost effective, and I'd like to see higher resolution than 320 x 240. I'd love it is it supports 800 x 480 for 2D sprite based graphics. Maybe some simple polygon support. Maybe the way the PSX did some 2D game by mixing them with 3D elements. It would make parallax scrolling look really nice. Maybe set the polygon count to somewhere around the original DS+.
stan423321
Member
They said that the thing can output 1080p(60?) technically, but FPGA is not going to make it and you need CPU upscaling to reach that, which I assume means it's not going to make it on its default program and if someone is crazy, then they can get it. Their exact wording is in the FAQ.
What was afterwards though? N64, and if you're pedantic then Saturn.
What was afterwards though? N64, and if you're pedantic then Saturn.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Throughout history, the only system with a almost 50/50 balance of 2D and 3D polygonal graphics was the original DS. I'd love to see this console do something similar. Capable enough for 3D (nothing fancy), with really good 2D. I'd be all over this thing if they strike that balance.
j^aws
Member
Regarding unorthodox uses of this FPGA, I've just realised how scalable this console is.
Much like the SNES game Starfox, which stuffed a coprocessor into the cartridge to give the console extra features after launch, one could suff more FPGAs into a cartridge in the future when they are peanuts to produce. For example, 10 years after launch or whatever period in the future when these FPGAs are cost effective to be included inside cartridges...
So in 30 years or so, the catridge itself could be more powerful than any current gen console!
Much like the SNES game Starfox, which stuffed a coprocessor into the cartridge to give the console extra features after launch, one could suff more FPGAs into a cartridge in the future when they are peanuts to produce. For example, 10 years after launch or whatever period in the future when these FPGAs are cost effective to be included inside cartridges...
So in 30 years or so, the catridge itself could be more powerful than any current gen console!
A Black Falcon
Member
Nah, most Japanese Famicom games don't have end labels either. Nor do the Odyssey 2 or Atari 5200's carts, before that. There are probably more. O2 games actually have handles on the end, a bit like the Jaguar's grip...
Now, it's always bad design to not have end-labels on carts, but there were quite a few systems that did just that.
Most systems did that, actually.
Super Famicom and EU SNES also didn't have end-labels. Not a single Nintendo portable had one either. Gx 4000 didn't have any, too, but nobody care ^_^
The only end-labels I have in my collection are a couple of NES games and SNES US imports.
stan423321
Member
That's technically true for any cartridge/card based system. It has been practically proven on the DS of all things, with late flashcards having their own CPUs for enhanced emulators and video players.
It's still mostly a bad idea since if the chips would be that cheap, they could try to release a way more powerful, backwards compatible Retro 2 instead.
Polioliolio
Member
I brought up this idea last year and was laughed out of the house.
I for one, am psyched. No online BS, just games on carts.
j^aws
Member
Yeah, a Retro 2 would make more sense, but the concept of Retro 2 is an oxymoron.
stan423321
Member
Why? Unless it would somehow turn around the whole industry, it would be a very sensible idea.
Though to stay truly retro to the level it is right now with some of its aspects, it should be an add-on.
j^aws
Member
Well, if you're retrospectively designing an old console, and arbitrarily choosing its specs, then upgrading said specs with something more powerful in the future, it becomes oxymoronic. That's not to say it's bad, it just sounds silly.
I think from the original pitch for this console, it revolves around cartridges, and imagine running a cartridge made in 20 years that still runs on the original Retro. Much like running cartridges on your original Megadrive, SNES, Neo Geo, PC Engine etc...
A Black Falcon
Member
No, more systems do than don't have end labels. For US cart designs, the Atari 2600, Atari 7800, Colecovision, Intellivision, NES, SNES, and Genesis all have end labels, while the Odyssey 2, Atari 5200, Vectrex, Jaguar, 32X, and N64 don't. Of those, only the N64 was significantly successful, while on the first list the 2600, NES, SNES, and Genesis all were.
And the you have the Master System, which has a label on the top... with no text on it. The text is only on the front. Sega... what were you thinking... particularly because their Japanese counterparts, Mark III cartridges, just like Sega SG-1000 carts before them, do have end labels with text on them, along with vertically-oriented carts, Atari-style.
Good point about EU/JP SNES games though, yeah, those don't have end labels either... between that and their annoying rounded label side of the carts, US SNES carts are far better designed. The end labels in US/EU NES games are also great to have versus FC games. Returning to the FC though, some Famicom games do have end labels, actually; it depends on the manufacturer. Most don't have them, but some do.
Oh, and as for handheld games, yeah, those never have end labels, but they'd be so small that they would be hard to read anyway, so that makes sense.
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
This sounds cool, but I just don't imagine it getting much developer support. I'd like to get one, but I think it would be a waste of money.
And wired controllers. I have no nostalgia for wired controllers, they're terrible and don't need to make any kind of a come back.
And wired controllers. I have no nostalgia for wired controllers, they're terrible and don't need to make any kind of a come back.
stan423321
Member
I don't really see your analogy here, since there are new games being made for these systems, just... few.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that the thought process behind the specs of Retro will primarily involve the price of components. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if the team is actually wishing for as high performance as possible, but is playing the "retro style games" card because they know it would end up outrageously expensive if it was as powerful as, say, 360.
Unless this port is already done, I doubt it will make launch. Watermelon has four already announced versions of the game that are still pending release.
stan423321
Member
Well they could just take the Genny version and retrofit (ouch) it to work with the FPGA.
j^aws
Member
These new games being made are still designed to run on original systems. There aren't more powerful versions of original consoles like Neo Geo 2, Dreamcast 2, nor a Jaguar 2.
They need to differentiate themsleves from such powerful systems. Their biggest challenge is likely to be the naysayers that can run these types of games on modern systems.
SegaShack said:
IIRC, they'll add S-Video outputs. I'd love RGB SCART though.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Is the CPU really going to be 16 bits? Wouldn't it be cheaper to just get an existing 64 bit CPU and build it around that? At the end of the day, it's really what the graphics look like that matter. A lot of the current games emulating the retro look run on 64 bit CPUs.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Or maybe some form of anti-aliasing.
bmcphail2008
Member
In fairness, games like Pier Solar and others that were programmed to run on specific classic consoles for which a core already exists can probably be converted to run on this platform with little effort. I think what software does get released for this platform will be mostly already released homebrew stuff from other 8 and 16 bit platforms. It seems unlikely that any good quality original software will be released, let alone any licensed stuff that isn't already widely available on other platforms. If anything, I think that's the biggest flaw with this whole concept. Running a core on this thing is never going to be as good as the original hardware and you will never have a big enough user base to justify creating exclusive software for the platform. Since you can already buy this game and many others on physical media, including cartridges, why bother buying a whole new platform to just buy it on another cartridge?