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[Schnozberry]

The issue is that the cache would eat up enough of the die that we'd likely end up with 1 SM and 2-4 CPU cores, which ironically wouldn't need the eSRAM to avoid bttlenecks in the first place. I hope Nintendo thinks logically this time, but they just don't seem to care about price/performance or ease of development for third parties even a little bit.

Given that SRAM density has improved quite a bit at 16nm FF and that we have no idea how large or small the Tegra being used for NX is, this seems a little premature.

 

[LegendofLex]

There's some strong indication privately that it might hit $250 but Nintendo wants to not repeat the same mistake as 3DS and will focus on the value proposition and launch lineup of software, something 3DS didn't have.

I think $250 would be a tolerable maximum.

It'd add some purchase resistance to parents who feel like they need to buy a portable for each of their kids, but it's still no more costly than having to buy an entirely separate system/games for their kids to play together on the TV. It cuts that variable out altogether.

 

[LordOfChaos]

A large cache or embedded memory pool is definitely something to look out for. Nintendo has dedicated around 30% of their last few custom dies to embedded memory (3DS, Wii U CPU & GPU), so they're obviously happy about dropping down big pools of SRAM and eDRAM on their chips. Typically this is so that the bulk of the data accesses (primarily the framebuffer) can remain on-die; increasing bandwidth and reducing latency and power consumption. This is actually a potential insight into one of the reasons Nintendo have switched to Nvidia for NX, as we've recently learnt that Maxwell and Pascal implement tile-based rendering, which is intended to achieve pretty much the same thing by optimising framebuffer access patterns to maximise the proportion of them that hit cache rather than main memory. What this would mean from Nintendo's point of view is that they could achieve the same goal with a much smaller pool of memory (perhaps 4MB compared to 32MB) and could do so in a way which is invisible to developers, so they only have to manage a single memory pool. It actually wouldn't surprise me if they could get the same or better performance at lower cost and power consumption by combining a large cache with a 64 bit memory interface than a smaller cache and a 128 bit interface.

They've done so to avoid wide memory IO widths and lower power consumption, but it's come at the expense of raw GPU execution hardware. So I kind of hope not this time. SoC for as much CPU and GPU as you can throw at it with LPDDR4 providing enough bandwidth.

Perhaps at most what Apple does, with a small SRAM block for GPU quick access. Not a repeat of spending a third of the die on eDRAM to make up for 12.8GB/s DDR3, like the Wii U.

 

[Plinko]

I think $250 would be a tolerable maximum.

It'd add some purchase resistance to parents who feel like they need to buy a portable for each of their kids, but it's still no more costly than having to buy an entirely separate system/games for their kids to play together on the TV. It cuts that variable out altogether.

I still think $250 will be too much for this market.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

The models are not compatible. If you want that, you want the end of portable gaming as we know it in favor of everything being basic and F2P.

The first can be worked around, easily. The second part is completely up to whoever makes the apps/games.

 

[LegendofLex]

I still think $250 will be too much for this market.

Don't get me wrong, I'd definitely prefer $200 or less. And I still think getting there is probably a top priority for them.

But I think they can get a healthy audience of early adopters on board for $250 and drive the price down to $200 for the mass market later when the library is more stacked.

 

[Schnozberry]

They've done so to avoid wide memory IO widths and lower power consumption, but it's come at the expense of raw GPU execution hardware. So I kind of hope not this time. SoC for as much CPU and GPU as you can throw at it with LPDDR4 providing enough bandwidth.

FinFet has made SRAM scaling a bit better. I wouldn't discount it completely. TSMC's 16nm FF process is only .02 square micrometers larger than Intel's 14nm process for a bitcell.

 

[Father_Brain]

I'm not digging this hybrid stuff at all. It's neither a good handheld nor console. It is a shitty replacement for handhelds you can actually put in your pocket, and before anyone says that that's ok I don't use my portable portably, MILLIONS DO

This better be one of numerous form factors, or a made up rumor and there are actual consoles and handhelds on the way

There's no point in targeting a pocket-size form factor when a smartphone is inevitably going to be the primary portable device of choice.

Doesn't mean they won't do it anyway, but I hope not, as a mini-tablet form factor would not only mean a bigger screen but also a larger battery and higher performance.

 

[heidern]

Source for this comment?

Miyamoto

Just when Nintendo started to earn stable revenue with the hit of GAME & WATCH, our sales doubled with the Donkey Kong arcade game. And when we were able to earn rather stable profits from the arcade game business, because our Famicom (known as Nintendo Entertainment System overseas) business started to get on track, we ceased our arcade business and started focusing on the home entertainment business. I believe Nintendo has shown results with its core dedicated game business by flexibly deciding how to allocate its limited human and other resources, but we are also always challenging ourselves with projects that have the potential to become the next big thing. And now, we see that our smart device business has the potential to become this next big thing.

There's also an interesting quote regarding a possible gimmick:

I understand that, thanks to the evolution of computer technology, aiming to realize a virtualized software development environment that does not depend on specific hardware is becoming the technological norm today. Simultaneously, regarding input and output technologies, I believe that it is also in line with the current technological trend that Nintendo should challenge itself with the creation of a unique user interface.

 

[Mithos]

I think $250 would be a tolerable maximum.

To much, unless its way more powerful then expected.

 

[Eolz]

To much, unless its way more powerful then expected.

That's not too much if it's a new good Pascal based Tegra + some gimmicks on the side (whether it's an interesting dock or something else).

 

[LordOfChaos]

I think $250 would be a tolerable maximum.

To much, unless its way more powerful then expected.

Shield Tablet K1 is 200, I think 250 for the whole banana with detachable controllers and the dock would be quite reasonable really. At 250 for that I'd be very tempted if it was both Nintendo's handheld and stationary from now on (that is to say, combined output = less drought and more titles).


That's also the Shield on Kepler(1SMX) and A15, there's no X1 with Maxwell one let alone this future Pascal one.

 

[Mithos]

That's not too much if it's a new good Pascal based Tegra + some gimmicks on the side (whether it's an interesting dock or something else).

I'll pay $250 for it if its a ~1Tflop Tegra X2 pascal CPU/GPU combo in there sure.

 

[joesiv]

no gimmicks pls

Nintendo already has confirmed gimmicks!

Well they said they are being quiet on NX because they don't want the competition to steal their ideas... which is pretty much confirming gimmicks me thinks.

 

[MuchoMalo]

The first can be worked around, easily. The second part is completely up to whoever makes the apps/games.

It's been proven time and time again that a low or nonexistent barrier of entry in terms of price is required for significant mobile success. As for the basic part, it really can't. Storage is limited on phones, especially iPhones, so file sizes need to be kept down.

I'll pay $250 for it if its a ~1Tflop Tegra X2 pascal CPU/GPU combo in there sure.

Unless you mean FP16, 1 TFLOPS isn't feasible in a handheld yet, especially at that price.

 

[LegendofLex]

To much, unless its way more powerful then expected.

I think the real variable will be whether people are willing to pay for the library that's offered, not whether they're willing to pay for the specs.

People don't buy iPhones for specs. They buy iPhones for the usability and the apps. (And the prestige, let's be real.)

The models are not compatible. If you want that, you want the end of portable gaming as we know it in favor of everything being basic and F2P.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect your phone to be a screen that you can use for your premium portable games, without saying that all games that you can play on your phone are games sold through the F2P model.

It's not too different than paying for premium TV content and also being able to watch it on your phone.

 

[Mithos]

Unless you mean FP16, 1 TFLOPS isn't feasible in a handheld yet, especially at that price.

I'm talking about a device that could play any Xbox One/PS4 game with "little to no problem", whatever the flops is called/measured.

If the NX device is $250 and can't, then Xbox One is a better buy for a home console replacement.

And I say this as a Nintendo fan, that have chosen Nintendo first since NES.

 

[Eolz]

I'm talking about a device that could play any Xbox One/PS4 game with "little to no problem", whatever the flops is called/measured.

If the NX device is $250 and can't, then Xbox One is a better buy for a home console replacement.

And I say this as a Nintendo fan, that have chosen Nintendo first since NES.

I think a lot of people will agree there (me included), it's not going to be a great console replacement. Expect a great handheld with some added bonuses for 250$, don't expect a 250$ console.

 

[MuchoMalo]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect your phone to be a screen that you can use for your premium portable games, without saying that all games that you can play on your phone are games sold through the F2P model.

It's not too different than paying for premium TV content and also being able to watch it on your phone.

Have you ever seen an app that costs more than $10 in the top grossing apps? It's just a different market. This is before even considering game size constraints (though that's an issue mainly due to Apple holding the industry back for personal gain).

I'm talking about a device that could play any Xbox One/PS4 game with "little to no problem", whatever the flops is called.

If the NX device is $250 and can't, then Xbox One is a better buy for a home console replacement.

And I say this as a Nintendo fan, that have chosen Nintendo first since NES.

It doesn't matter how powerful it is; it's not getting third-party support either way.

 

[Doctre81]

To much, unless its way more powerful then expected.

lol $250 is too much?

 

[LegendofLex]

Have you ever seen an app that costs more than $10 in the top grossing apps? It's just a different market. This is before even considering game size constraints (though that's an issue mainly due to Apple holding the industry back for personal gain).

I'm not saying that you'll buy full Nintendo games on the App Store.

I'm saying that maybe there's an app that lets you play full Nintendo games you already own.

It doesn't matter how powerful it is; it's not getting third-party support either way.

Ice cold truth.

 

[Doctre81]

Unless you mean FP16, 1 TFLOPS isn't feasible in a handheld yet, especially at that price.

Let's wait until the 22nd.

 

[LordOfChaos]

lol $250 is too much?

I don't get it either. I think maybe people are looking at it as just a 3DS sequel and saying 250 is too much, but if Nintendo is consolidating all their development into this one device and it replaces two devices, I think it's perfectly reasonable.

Even moreso considering my Shield Tablet comparison above, that's a 1SM Kepler with four A15 cores, and is 200 just for the tablet.

If the NX is Pascal based with newer CPU cores to go with it and includes the dock and detachable controller, seems like 250 is perfectly reasonable to me. I might even give my first ever console preorder, that's almost impulse buy price to me.

 

[sfried]

It doesn't matter how powerful it is; it's not getting third-party support either way.

Considering the recent announcements pf DQX and whatnot, that''s just being pessimistic now, are we?

 

[blu]

Let's wait until the 22nd.

We will be having the chance to see AzaK wearing his favorite Peach dress ;p

 

[Rodin]

There's some strong indication privately that it might hit $250 but Nintendo wants to not repeat the same mistake as 3DS and will focus on the value proposition and launch lineup of software, something 3DS didn't have.

250€ is what i'm expecting, so don't skimp on SOC performances/screen size and bring it on Nintendo.

 

[MuchoMalo]

I think a lot of people will agree there (me included), it's not going to be a great console replacement. Expect a great handheld with some added bonuses for 250$, don't expect a 250$ console.

It's not about agreeing. If something doesn't meet your needs/desires, it has less value to yhou. You can't just tell someone to change their values. If he doesn't care for a handheld and only cares about NX as a console, that's perfectly fine.

Let's wait until the 22nd.

There's no need to. It's simply impossible based on what we know of Pascal and 16nmFF. We'd need something like 3 SMs at 1.3GHz minimum, and even if that happens it's not going to be a TDP usable in a portable device

Considering the recent announcements pf DQX and whatnot, that''s just being pessimistic now, are we?

Third-party support beyond what we've seen since Wii, I mean.

We will be having the chance to see AzaK wearing his favorite Peach dress ;p

What did I miss?

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

1) I don't think NX is going to cost more than 3DS XL (the most popular 3DS model) did.

2) I think buying two NXs will cost less than buying a 3DS XL and a Wii U does right now. (Which is what you have to do to get a portable that your kids can take with them and a stationary TV console right now.)

3) I don't think the possibility that a kid can take the 3DS XL with them stopped people from buying a 3DS XL.

4) People buying a portable for each of their kids so they can each take theirs with them has definitely been a thing historically (I can confirm at least as recently as the OG DS line, possibly 3DS as well) and NX being playable on a TV doesn't really change this except parents now don't have to buy separate hardware just for playing on the TV.



The only reason people have to care is:

1) They want to play all the big PS4 games on their NX.
2) If NX is somehow considerably more expensive than $200-250.

Otherwise they can totally ignore the portability if they want to and still have a competent game console.

Then they are abandoning the home console market at that point, then it is not a hybrid. But a handheld that you can possibly connect to your television.

If a family buy's a single hybrid as the home console and handheld, because there are some families that can't afford to spend 600 for two hybrids.

 

[Fourth Storm]

We will be having the chance to see AzaK wearing his favorite Peach dress ;p

Now, that's entertainment!

 

[Samemind]

It would in practice, be very similar to how the initial 3D screen from 3DS only worked in a certain angle. And not any different from how it would work for a second player in multiplayer.

Well yes, that's true. But I think there's a difference in critical functionality between an optional 3D feature and the information from a "different" screen. One being finicky is more tolerable than the other.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Wasn't there suppose to be a Nintendo meeting today?

 

[Sadist]

Wasn't there suppose to be a Nintendo meeting today?

Nvidia in a few hours.

 

[AzaK]

The new patents seem to indicate that we migh be getting a tablet-like NX. So... maybe a bigger and higher res screen, and a larger battery along with it? Possibly a higher clocked GPU?

I think tablet sized (iPad mini at 16:9) would be ideal. A large portion of HH gaming is done in the home so I'm not convinced pocket portability is important. Especially seeing as school age kids have bags anyway.

A bigger screen is just more enjoyable not to mention the logistics of attaching decent sized controllers to the sides.

 

[MuchoMalo]

The new patents seem to indicate that we migh be getting a tablet-like NX. So... maybe a bigger and higher res screen, and a larger battery along with it? Possibly a higher clocked GPU?

You mean like I've been saying this whole time while everyone is insisting on 540p 5-inch screen?

Haha ain't gonna happen.

Spoiler

Crosses fingers and toes

WHAT'S GOING ON!?

 

[AzaK]

We will be having the chance to see AzaK wearing his favorite Peach dress ;p

Haha ain't gonna happen.

Spoiler

Crosses fingers and toes

 

[James Scott]

What would a better CPU than PS4/X1 mean for NX?
The CPU this generation hasn't been a big leap from what I remember and Miyamoto himself said they've been limited by the CPU on Wii U so I imagine they'll try and improve on that.
I'm not entirely sure what the CPU is used for, I think I recall frame rate and AI?

 

[TwilightPrincess]

Third-party support beyond what we've seen since Wii, I mean.

Na, it could get 3DS like support from Japan plus a bunch of devs working on PSVita and PS4 Games (Japan). Ad some western support (because it will sell better than Wii U) and indies and we are many steps above Wii U 3rd party situation. Plus all nintendo games.

I am not concerned about the support. What you perhaps won´t get is the AAA Western "Hardcore" Games like GTA 6 or Battlefield. but even then it has a better chance to get some scaled down "own" versions than Wii U had.

 

[lo zaffo]

Considering the recent announcements pf DQX and whatnot, that''s just being pessimistic now, are we?

Actually DQX is a clear example of a project leaving Nintendo shores: it is still on Nintendo (Wii and Wii U and 3Ds) but it will be on PlayStation4 (an PC) too.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Na, it could get 3DS like support from Japan plus a bunch of devs working on PSVita and PS4 Games (Japan). Ad some western support (because it will sell better than Wii U) and indies and we are many steps above Wii U 3rd party situation. Plus all nintendo games.

I am not concerned about the support. What you perhaps won´t get is the AAA Western "Hardcore" Games like GTA 6 or Battlefield. but even then it has a better chance to get some scaled down "own" versions than Wii U had.

I mean Nintendo as a whole, not just the console side.

 

[blu]

What did I miss?

A bet. Well, technically, a one-sided bet -- AzaK against fate ; )

 

[Calm Mind]

A bet. Well, technically, a one-sided bet -- AzaK against fate ; )

RIP AzaK's dignity

 

[thefro]

Nvidia in a few hours.

Actually a little over an an hour from now

 

[MuchoMalo]

A bet. Well, technically, a one-sided bet -- AzaK against fate ; )

You bet him that the X2 would be a 1+ TFLOPS FP32 chip? Seems a bit

 

[OrbitalBeard]

Actually DQX is a clear example of a project leaving Nintendo shores: it is still on Nintendo (Wii and Wii U and 3Ds) but it will be on PlayStation4 (an PC) too.

It's not a clear example of anything. DQX has been on PC for years.

 

[blu]

You bet him that the X2 would be a 1+ TFLOPS FP32 chip? Seems a bit

Actually he bet NX would not be a 1TFLOP chip, fp16 included.

 

[Hero of Legend]

But we have the NES 2 already:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System_(Model_NES-101)

 

[lo zaffo]

It's not a clear example of anything. DQX has been on PC for years.

Indeed it is, SE knows DQ home is Sony's PlayStation4 (talking about Jpn market) and does not want loose money for Nintendo sake.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Actually a little over an an hour from now

Holy crap!


An Nvidia event that won't have me up till 12:30 for it to start!

 

[Refyref]

Indeed it is, SE knows DQ home is Sony's PlayStation4 (talking about Jpn market) and does not want loose money for Nintendo sake.

Huh? If anything, currently it is 3DS.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Actually he bet NX would not be a 1TFLOP chip, fp16 included.

Sounds like a safe bet to me. :/ Definitely at the tip top end of the spectrum unless it runs at different clocks in handheld and docked modes.