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OK nerds, you win. Song of Ice and Fire is gud.
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lastendconductor
Put your snobby liquids into my mouth!
I bought Game of Thrones a couple weeks ago. I devoured it and had no choice but to go and buy all the others. Goddamn these books are just depressing and raw, but I can't stop reading. I just can't. Somebody needs to chain Martin down to his chair; I need a Dance with Dragons NOW.
Also, IMO Tyrion and Arya are the best characters, by far. Jon and Daenerys are pretty cool too, but more because of their refreshing and eventful scenarios. Daenerys chapters felt like Moorcock's stuff at times, which I love.
Also, IMO Tyrion and Arya are the best characters, by far. Jon and Daenerys are pretty cool too, but more because of their refreshing and eventful scenarios. Daenerys chapters felt like Moorcock's stuff at times, which I love.
Flynn said:
His best is his only oeuvre, the Malazan Book of the Fallen series. Best books are probably book 2 or 3 or 8 (from the 8 books that are out). Problem is, his first one is by far not the best out by far. You should start there, but it when you finished that one, please start with 2 right away.
As a whole, Martin is probably a better writer then Erikson is and ASOIAF is better a better series then Malazan is. But Erikson writes a hell of a lot faster and his created world is so much more complicated it hurts.
Flynn said:
I'm not saying I want a novel every year. I stick with Erikson but I also stick with Hamilton (SF) or Bakker or Abercrombie Williams or or Hobb and even Martin.
The thing is, Erikson cranks out consistently good and long novels every two years. The quantity of the novels is not hurting the quality of the novels. If anything, after a dip during novel 4 and 5, his last two novels have improved, getting close to 2 and 3 quality.
I'm still not sure what it is about Erikson's novels that turn me off. I stopped reading after book 3. They just seem so fragmented and random. I couldn't see the big picture.
Martin, on the other hand, just grabs me and I can't wait to see how everything plays out. Assuming the bastard finishes the books.
Martin, on the other hand, just grabs me and I can't wait to see how everything plays out. Assuming the bastard finishes the books.
Dina said:
That's good to hear. I guess the thing is I don't really read fantasy novels. So maybe the rest of the stuff out there just isn't for me. I'm super, super picky when it comes to genre stuff. I just only started reading Vernor Vinge and that was only because a couple people I really trusted recommended it to me. Until then it was just Neal Stevenson, William Gibson and the Hyperion books.
With fantasy the George R.R. Martin were the first I've touched since Piers Anthony those awful Dragonlance books I read when I was a teenager.
I think that It is undeniable that there is no safe characters, me thinks. Sure, there are main characters, but do you honestly expect them to die right in the first half of the series? I have no doubt that most of them will be dead and buried in the end of a Hope of spring. And Jon, despite of being the biggest cliched character on the series, well, I am positively sure that Martin has great, hum, plans for him. In one of the published chapters of a Dance with the Dragons
Jon executes one member os the nightwatch for disobey him
And Martin talked long ago about one character going the opposite route of Jaime (from loved to hated instead of from hated to loved), sooooo I think that there are sure more surprises in store and that many of them have to do with Jon. I really doubt that Martin likes stereotyped characters, either.
And Martin talked long ago about one character going the opposite route of Jaime (from loved to hated instead of from hated to loved), sooooo I think that there are sure more surprises in store and that many of them have to do with Jon. I really doubt that Martin likes stereotyped characters, either.
Brian Fellows
Pete Carroll Owns Me
Flynn said:
Yes heaven forbid people want the fat bastard to do his fucking job.
cvkpaladin
Member
Ikael said:
While Jon would be a great choice for that type of role, I think he was referring to Tyrion.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Flynn said:
Ouch. No wonder you've been put off fantasy for so long.
On Malazan, start with the second book, Deadhouse Gates, as someone already said, and come back to the first (which is the worst in the series) later on. You really won't be missing that much, except for the introduction of Ganoes Paron and the Bridgeburners. The likes of Robin Hobb, David Gemmell, Moorcock, Gene Wolfe and so on are just waiting to be read as well. Wish I could start from the beginning again.
Brian Fellows
Pete Carroll Owns Me
tokkun said:
That and whenever the fat fuck actually does set aside time to write there is ALWAYS some lame excuse for why he got nothing done. He also seems to love going to Cons to promote the books he never seems to work on. There is a big diffrence between wanting a guy to do his job and wanting him locked in a basement 24/7. Which is what Flynn seems to think people want.
bishopcruz
Member
It's a damn shame too, but IMO I think that NOT doing the time jump is what really hurt the series. I think Martin wants to move forward to a particular point to continue the story, but is a bit unclear as to how.
Part of the reason I hope the HBO show gets picked up, is at least IT will have an ending. I'm really scared Martin will pull a Jordan on us and die.
Part of the reason I hope the HBO show gets picked up, is at least IT will have an ending. I'm really scared Martin will pull a Jordan on us and die.
bishopcruz
Member
Flynn said:
I wouldn't go so far as to call him a fat fuck, but I have to say I totally understand not liking the guy. It's his blog, it's all about the blog.
There's a reason I don't read it. The main one isn't just the fact that he is a HUGE lib and a Jets fan, and prattles on incessantly about it, its the fact that by and large there is always more news on miniatures, board games, trips to europe, other books he's written, comics, other expensive editions of his books, etc. than there is about the next book in the series. It gets to you after a while. Especially when you are waiting for his work, and it seems like writing the book you are wating for is the last thing on his agenda.
It is his life, and he can do what he wishes with it, but I only go by his site about twice a year, which incidentally about as often as he gives substantial news on the upcoming book. Some of us have been visiting the site for years now, and it can be really hard to not get resentful.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Did anyone read the new chapter? I'm trying to avoid them but I glanced at some of the earlier ones
Flynn said:
If you don't like fantasy genre fiction, then I would place a heavy bet that you will hate Erikson & his Malazan series. Malazan always seems to be brought up in comparison with A Song of Ice & Fire, but the only real similarity between them is that they are dark fantasy and that they have a lot of characters. In reality, Malazan & ASoIaF are polar opposites in many respects. While there are some fantasy elements to ASoIaF, its world is strongly based in reality, and if you ignored the dragon stuff it would almost read like historical fiction. You will never run into completely unrealistic situations, like having one guy fight 30 enemies at once and win. Malazan is the exact opposite. Every other character is powerful enough to destroy an entire continent on their own if they get really pissed off, and the rules of the universe are so far from our reality that there might as well not be any rules at all since you have no innate sense of what is possible and impossible.
I also think that ASoIaF spends a lot more time developing characters, whereas Malazan focuses more on events and actions. Some of the characters who only appeared in a single chapter in ASoIaF, like Pate from Feast, felt more realized than any of the characters I encountered in the first two Malazan books.
Future PhaZe
Member
I don't bother to read the Dragons chapters that have been released. I've been waiting for a while so I might as well get a whole damn book when it's done :lol
Honestly as interested as I am for Dragons, I'm a little more interested in the book AFTER Dragons...which makes the wait that much more frustrating to me. I love
, but I also love
which I assume won't be in Dragons (correct me if I'm wrong).
As for Malazan...meh. I know a lot of you suggested to start with Deadhouse Gates...but I was just so sickened by the series after reading the first book that I couldn't continue. The book was almost just a little bit TO much fantasy for me. I guess after reading so many typical fantasy novels I've just been more interested in scenarios that are a little more grounded. Might pick it back up after I finish the Bourne series though.
Honestly as interested as I am for Dragons, I'm a little more interested in the book AFTER Dragons...which makes the wait that much more frustrating to me. I love
Jon and Tyrion
The Brienne/Jaime events...the Cersei stuff and other things
As for Malazan...meh
. I know a lot of you suggested to start with Deadhouse Gates...but I was just so sickened by the series after reading the first book that I couldn't continue. The book was almost just a little bit TO much fantasy for me. I guess after reading so many typical fantasy novels I've just been more interested in scenarios that are a little more grounded. Might pick it back up after I finish the Bourne series though.bishopcruz
Member
Flynn said:
If Axl Rose had left a massive cliffhanger, then maybe. As he is releasing music, no not so much.
Flynn said:
Haha, in my post above I actually typed "fat fuck" but it sounded harsh so I changed it to "bastard". Not sure why the term fat fuck came to mind. I've met him a couple of times and I can tell he loves going to cons and bookstore signings. But shit man, I love hobnobbing as much as the next guy, but enough is enough. And then he takes on all these ridiculous side projects (sculptures, publishing other writer's stuff, board games, card games, etc etc etc etc), fuck just work on the main series already.
I've harped on it before in this thread but I'm really worried about him completing the series. When Dance finally comes out (I predict end of 09/early 2010) I think it will be another 8 years or so before the last book comes out. That's 10 years right there if he sticks to the plan of completing things in 7 books.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
tokkun said:
Okay, that's a huge exaggeration. It'd be more reasonable to state that "every other character is powerful enough to ... fight 30 enemies at once and win." Well, maybe not all at once. Those characters are fewer in number than a 50% spread, as well. However, most characters aren't Ascendants, and the books always imbue a sense of wonder into what mere mortals can accomplish in a world full of meddling Gods. The Malazans themselves, and the victories they achieve with modern warfare techniques and explosives over races that are far superior to them individually reflects this. And who can forget Tehol Beddict, a human who orchestrates events that manipulate Gods and have far-ranging consequences. In fact, he's not the only one that does that.
Otherwise yes, it might be a bit too speculative for some, but I'd say you'll start to pick up that innate sense of what is possible after one or two books as you begin to grasp the concept of the magic system. The better novels are also more grounded in this "reality" as well as involving some truly amazing characters and events.
Furthermore, I can't stress enough that you shouldn't start with the first novel. It's an alienating, if interesting, introduction that does not display the best of what makes up Malazan. The first time I picked up a Malazan book, it was sadly that one, the first. I put it down within a few hours, swore off the series and almost missed out on one of the best fantasy series I've ever read. Basically, read Deadhouse Gates before you decide that Malazan isn't your cup of tea. I know how annoying that sounds to try and miss the first book, but first novels are not always the metric to measure the talent of an author upon.
tokkun said:
Characterization gets stronger as you go along, but I'd definitely agree that it never reaches Martin's level in ASoIaF. But Pate from A Feast for Crows more realized than Kalam or Fiddler? That's a stretch. Further still, House of Chains and Midnight Tides introduce two utterly unique characters. (Tehol, Karsa) The regulars such as Fiddler, Ganoes, Quick Ben, Kruppe, etc. are also great and have a pretty distinctive feel to them.
Anyway, I'll agree that Erikson's strength lies in constructing a dizzying series of actions that lead to a convergence or event that ties together these threads of multiple interests in a more-often-than-not satisfying conclusion. His weakness lies in his sometimes over-saturated philosophical banter and introduction of sometimes meaningless side-bars. However, those weaknesses are part of what makes the world he has created so far-ranging and imminently vast. Marked out of shear escapism, grandeur and justified social - sometimes anthropological - commentary, Erikson is hard to dismiss as yet another unimaginative windbag treading in the shadows of Tolkien.
People should switch to Joe Abercrombie's excellent series, "The First Law", in the meantime. It's done, only three tight, fast, well written, and most importantly, non-cliched novels. I absolutely loved all three books. Fantastic characters, and gritty storytelling. Minimal world building and magic as well, which helped.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
suffah said:
I hope you're not talking about him publishing Jack Vance or Wild Cards.
bishopcruz
Member
I'm still amazed Wild Cards has new shit coming out. I think I stopped reading that series around book VII or so, and I was in Jr. High at the time. I thought Fortunado was awesome, but that was probably, because I was a 13 year old hornball. And Peregrine was HOT!
PhoenixDark
Banned
Dark FaZe said:
Martin has some of the big cliffhangers will be addressed towards the end of ADWD; the book will apparently cover a period of time longer than that in AFFC.
I agree with you though, I thought AFFC was great and featured a lot of interesting stuff, and I'm nearly as interested in
Cersei's fate
Martell's POV
him traveling to meet Dany, and if he gets there it'll be towards the end of the book I guess
PhoenixDark
Banned
Dina said:
Both are traveling to court her. The Martells will be able to offer land and a large amount of soldiers well positioned to start taking out allies of the Iron Throne, ie the Tyrells (assuming they don't switch, or haven't switched already...). Victarion will have the ships Dany needs, but not the military power she'll need to storm Westeros on land. Also since it's pretty obvious Tyrion will be with Dany before either of them, probably as a respected adviser, I wonder if he'll want to make alliance with the Martells considering he owes them (Oberyn). I wouldn't be surprised if one dies or is captured before making it to her though
PhoenixDark said:
I never really thought it out, but
Martell seems like a likely candidate, combined with Tyrion as the adviser (also didn't figure that out. Guess we'll see, hopefully somewhere in 2009.
Speaking of 2009, killer fantasy year or what?
New Erikson
New Bakker
New Rothfuss
New Abercrombie
New Morgan
New Ruckley
and possibly a new Martin
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Brodequin said:
As far as I know, the only omnibus for the last four (Glittering Stone) books cuts them in half and has two books in each collection. Believe me, I've tried getting all four in one.
Dina said:
Yessir. Listed from "day one" to "I'll walk in and buy it a week later", it goes something like this for me.
The Wise Man's Fear - Patrick Rothfuss.
The Republic of Thieves - Scott Lynch.
Malazan: Dust of Dreams - Steve Erikson.
The Aspect Emperor - R. Scott Bakker.
The Cold Commands - Richard K Morgan.
Best Served Cold - Joe Abercrombie.
Blood Heir - Brian Ruckley.
Pleasant surprises.
Rothfuss' new book is far and away number one for me. The first book remains in my head clear as day, even if hampered by an at-times convoluted ending. The mystery and romance of Kvothe's life is infectious. Everything else is just gravy. Absurdly good gravy none-the-less.
Dina said:
Fixed.
Future PhaZe
Member
I'm sorry guys don't hate me but there's been some recent book talk in the HBO thread and thought I might as well bump this to get any more book discussion in here.
Also we're officially 1 day away from a fucking complete YEARRRR from George's last big Dance of Dragons update.
;_;
http://georgerrmartin.com/if-update.html
I'm starting to get worried at this point. Even though I enjoyed aFfC the book was still the worst of the series, and the fact that this one has taken so long means that the series is possibly in peril. If the next book is a dud, it could end up in the collapse of the entire series. HBO might not bother with the show, and George could potentially take another half a decade to write.
Perhaps the quality of a Dance of Dragons would have absolutely nothing to do with Thrones appearing on HBO, but you'd have to think that a successful new book in the series with great reviews and material would only be an additional incentive for HBO to pick it up, and an HBO airing of Thrones as well as a showering of support over the quality of Dragons is perhaps the only thing that could get George excited enough to write the 6th book in an acceptable amount of time.
Also we're officially 1 day away from a fucking complete YEARRRR from George's last big Dance of Dragons update.
;_;
http://georgerrmartin.com/if-update.html
I'm starting to get worried at this point. Even though I enjoyed aFfC the book was still the worst of the series, and the fact that this one has taken so long means that the series is possibly in peril. If the next book is a dud, it could end up in the collapse of the entire series. HBO might not bother with the show, and George could potentially take another half a decade to write.
Perhaps the quality of a Dance of Dragons would have absolutely nothing to do with Thrones appearing on HBO, but you'd have to think that a successful new book in the series with great reviews and material would only be an additional incentive for HBO to pick it up, and an HBO airing of Thrones as well as a showering of support over the quality of Dragons is perhaps the only thing that could get George excited enough to write the 6th book in an acceptable amount of time.
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Dark FaZe said:
I can understand the frustrations, but this is a little over-the-top. It took five years to complete the last book, we've been waiting on this one for four years. If the wait was approaching above seven years, then I might agree more firmly. Yes, you can speculate over what he's said about re-writing, splitting and dividing up the last two books, but really, it's a work in progress and he's obviously trying to re-shape the run-down portion of this series from this half-way point. In the end, t's certainly not the longest wait ever seen. (Dark Tower says hi!)
As for writing quality, I highly doubt his next book will be immeasurably worse than Crows and ranging into the territory of a possibly conclusive failure. After all, Martin has been doing quality fiction since the 70s.
I think the concern with the length of time to finish the series has to do with Martin's appearance and health. This guy could very well die before completing the last 3 books. Will 2009 see Dance with Dragons? After that how many years for the next book -- 5, 6? Then another 5 or 6 for the final book? That's about 10-12 more years to finish...have you seen Martin? He looks like he could drop dead at a moment's notice.
lastendconductor
Put your snobby liquids into my mouth!
It's not 2009 here yet! there is still hope!duckroll said:
dermannmitdemcolt
Member
Tim the Wiz said:
The book is called the Judging Eye btw - and it's really, really awesome. Bakker is the only one who is indeed on the same level with Martin. The man is a fucking genius.
Future PhaZe
Member
Tim the Wiz said:
This is certainly true and I really hope the long amount of time results in the best book in the series. I'm just somewhat concerned with the lack of updates and with Martin being on so many trips all the time :\.
I can only hope something appears soon.
I said it before, 4 years for the first 3. Now up to 9 for the next one...which turned into two but still seem to be one since you need both to actually find out what happened to the other half of the characters. Seems like he is just milking it for one reason or another. But regardless, anything in development hell for a long time isn't a good sign. And being realistic here, The addition of the show isn't making it any better. Now they could decide to play games with timing the releases, if it seems like lower quality. Releasing it after, or numerous other options at their disposal to play coy.
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
I'm hoping that books 6 and 7 will come pretty quickly since books 4 and 5 were not in the original plan, and he had some idea as to where the series was going to end up. Then again, these books have changed things so maybe he has no idea anymore.
Hopefully he takes it easy on his other projects and just concentrates on A Dance with Dragons until its finished. I really wonder what could be taking so long, he said he essentially had half of the book finished when A Feast for Crows came out.
My main problem with A Feast for Crows:
It's not a bad book by any means, it's just that it's a horrible followup to the awesomeness of A Storm of Swords.
Hopefully he takes it easy on his other projects and just concentrates on A Dance with Dragons until its finished. I really wonder what could be taking so long, he said he essentially had half of the book finished when A Feast for Crows came out.
My main problem with A Feast for Crows:
Brienne's chapters were terrible for the first part of the book. The first several of her chapters were pretty much the same things repeated a few times. The last few of her chapters were awesome however. The possible (although I'm pretty sure it is) reappearance of the Hound, the fight with the remnants of the Bloody Mummers, and her final encounter with Catelyn.
I also didn't care much for the chapters that dealt with the Greyjoys, but I can see how they'll be important for the future.
I also didn't care much for the chapters that dealt with the Greyjoys, but I can see how they'll be important for the future.
It's not a bad book by any means, it's just that it's a horrible followup to the awesomeness of A Storm of Swords.
PhoenixDark
Banned
I'm not concerned with the quality of the series taking a hit. The main reason people hated on AFFC is because it didn't feature their favorite characters, something most people knew going into the book; I wasn't waiting 5 years for it to come out so I'd imagine the wait added to the disappointment. It may be the "worse" book in the series but it's pretty damn good, features more than a few great scenes, and the cliffhangers were just as interesting as SoS's.
ADWD is going to come out this year if Martin lives, I'm 100% confident. And considering it's going to deal with the very characters people like, there's no way it's going to suck.
ADWD is going to come out this year if Martin lives, I'm 100% confident. And considering it's going to deal with the very characters people like, there's no way it's going to suck.
Brian Fellows
Pete Carroll Owns Me
AFFC was a natural progression for the part of Westeros the book took place in. Things couldnt keep going at the same pace as ASOS or there'd be nobody below the neck for The Others to destroy.
PhoenixDark
Banned
And how could anyone hate watching Cersei fuck shit up
Count of Monte Sawed-Off
un33dab@dpu$$y
PhoenixDark said:
And get fat!
Tim the Wiz
Banned
Dark FaZe said:
One can hope that less updates means more work is getting done.
Yeah, just saw that it had been turned into a trilogy. The first book will be interesting from where he left off. I quite liked the first trilogy, it definitely made an impact, but I don't think I'd rate Bakker as high as you would. There's more than a few authors between him and Martin in the fantasy landscape, in my opinion. If, from what I understand, you've already read an advance copy, this is merely blind speculation in comparison; Judging Eye could very well blow me away. I'll definitely give it that chance.
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