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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Lol judging MS ability to harbour talent based on one dev... And even then rare have done well under ms, theres nothing like sea of theives which has plenty of fans.
And gears has been consistent under the coalition both scoring 85 on opencritic. So you're full of poop.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
No shit.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
How long under ms before rare made sea of thieves?
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
How's Lionhead doing these days?Dude stappp
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Hows gurilla liverpool, evolution studios, japan studios doing?
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
Hello more whataboutism. This thread isn't about sony mismanaging studios. Is it that hard for you to admit ms in all its glory has made mistakes with their studios?
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Lol double standards, you go on about ms closed devs but when I bring up sonys closed devs you cry "whataboutism"
Double standards in full effect here ladies and gents.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
I'm simply sticking with the topic at hand. You aren't. Feel free to make your own thread about sony studio closures. So how about that lionhead? What happened there? They just felt like shutting down?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
The Initiative closed down? Damn, I missed the news.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
Studio mismanagement. Nice try though.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
The Initiative is being mismanaged? Big if true.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
Your obcession with singleling out ms on this issue is just bizarre.
I dont even know what the point is you're trying to prove.. lionhead closed, so what! every publisher has closed down devs.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
That's literally the whole point of the thread.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
All I see is zero evidence for mismanagement and plenty of evidence for certain people being on some industry grade hopium.
kingfey
Banned
You said the thing.
If people are using gamepass to access this game, then that means more people are playing it. Or does that mean, those people arent playing the game?
Also, MP is the free version, while the campaign cost money.
Anyway, all 3 werent that big. We have f2p shooters in the market (fortnite, warzone, Pubg, and others). As long as those games are free, people wont play them unless it has modes from those games.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
It's almost like we are speculating. It's almost like we are outsiders! My larger point is still factual to the point that even you can't deny. Ms has mishandled studios before. It's not unfathomable that it isn't happening here.
But the whole argument is you are making an assertion with no foundational basis. Closing studios because they didn’t meet guidelines set fourth doesn’t mean mismanagement.
I will say that Lionhead failure specifically was an eye opener for Microsoft about forcing devs to execute Microsoft strategy instead of trusting them.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I think some of y'all are taking the doom-speculation too far.
We have no idea the development scope and timeframe, the project could be at a point where the director's role has diminished to the point of him leaving and MS being ok with it, or most of the development has been shifted off to Crystal Dynamics in which case this game director would have a redundant role anyway.
Let's wait to see if there's any updates on the game this E3.
Key staff leaving during development when their role/scope has been fulfilled is not uncommon at all.
We have no idea the development scope and timeframe, the project could be at a point where the director's role has diminished to the point of him leaving and MS being ok with it, or most of the development has been shifted off to Crystal Dynamics in which case this game director would have a redundant role anyway.
Let's wait to see if there's any updates on the game this E3.
Key staff leaving during development when their role/scope has been fulfilled is not uncommon at all.
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kingfey
Banned
MS previous management. Current management is doing hands on free. And that is my issue with MS. Other than that, they are much better position than last time.
They need to have less hands off free, so they dont make mistakes. Otherwise, they are on good spot for the future.
Dr Bass
Member
Zero evidence? Tech leads, generally speaking, do not leave their positions unless they are not happy in that position any longer. If you are in tech, or follow tech at all you would know this. Why would a creative director leave one of the most cushy jobs in the world if he was totally happy?
The fact the only people trying to “defend” this (it’s just a news story, there is no reason to rush to the defense of a massive corporation you weirdos) are members of the Xbox only clan speaks for itself and it’s sad. A simple news story going completely off the rails, as always, by the usual suspects.
Anyway, no, we don’t know much. But these moves aren’t uncommon and are also similarly motivated. If leads were leaving Sony or Nintendo before they could ship titles, it would look exactly the same.
For Good examples of this kind of thing in the tech world, read “Bad Blood.” The denial present among some folks is just so weird.
Papacheeks
Banned
This thread is the most interesting part of my weekend
Is it bad that I never had flammng hot Cheetos?
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Does anyone else think it might've been better if Microsoft focused on expanding their current teams and the 2018 acquisitions with new staff and sub-team instead of buying a bunch of other studios between Zenimax & ABK?
Just curious what others think about that. Maybe they are spreading themselves too thin between so many different development studios when some like 343i seem to be struggling to stay competent with updates for a single game, others like Rare rebooting their next game altogether and others still like The Initiative having key people leave at points you'd think are troublesome for the stability for a new game in mid-development.
I mean they maybe could've just hired people from Zenimax, ABK, Square-Enix etc. and did more contracting work (they have an odd cut-off period for contract work which I think impacted Halo Infinite), build up a large support studio, and tried purchasing specific IP from companies their XGS teams would've wanted to work on? Would've been way cheaper and about right on schedule with timing going by the pace of releases from these teams with their current strategy, IMHO.
But yeah I wonder how some others might see it.
I mean, sure, they all have. Sony's closed down quite a few (most recently Japan Studio, tho that was arguably respun into Team Asobi), but it's about the totality of things. They've managed to more than offset that by not only getting results from newly acquired studios (Insomniac), but growing their other teams and many of them reinventing themselves with new IP or big spins on classic IP (Horizon, Days Gone, Ghosts of Tsushima, Astrobot, God of War 2018, Spiderman etc.).
Over the past several years the game can't be said for Microsoft's internal teams. They didn't just shut down teams like Lionhead; they also cancelled planned new games like Scalebound and Phantom Dust remake. The only new IP from them last gen were from teams they didn't own, and quite a few were never expanded upon (Quantum Break, Sunset Overdrive, ReCore etc.). Outside of the Forza games, a lot of people felt the quality dropped for IP like Halo and Gears, and their 1P teams had very little new IP last gen.
There's a notable difference historically and that has to be acknowledged. It's part of the reason Microsoft went and started acquiring developers in 2018, then publishers starting in 2020. But it's arguable if they should've created new studios like The Initiative and instead perhaps expanded existing studios so they could potentially take on more projects in rotation.
Just curious what others think about that. Maybe they are spreading themselves too thin between so many different development studios when some like 343i seem to be struggling to stay competent with updates for a single game, others like Rare rebooting their next game altogether and others still like The Initiative having key people leave at points you'd think are troublesome for the stability for a new game in mid-development.
I mean they maybe could've just hired people from Zenimax, ABK, Square-Enix etc. and did more contracting work (they have an odd cut-off period for contract work which I think impacted Halo Infinite), build up a large support studio, and tried purchasing specific IP from companies their XGS teams would've wanted to work on? Would've been way cheaper and about right on schedule with timing going by the pace of releases from these teams with their current strategy, IMHO.
But yeah I wonder how some others might see it.
I mean, sure, they all have. Sony's closed down quite a few (most recently Japan Studio, tho that was arguably respun into Team Asobi), but it's about the totality of things. They've managed to more than offset that by not only getting results from newly acquired studios (Insomniac), but growing their other teams and many of them reinventing themselves with new IP or big spins on classic IP (Horizon, Days Gone, Ghosts of Tsushima, Astrobot, God of War 2018, Spiderman etc.).
Over the past several years the game can't be said for Microsoft's internal teams. They didn't just shut down teams like Lionhead; they also cancelled planned new games like Scalebound and Phantom Dust remake. The only new IP from them last gen were from teams they didn't own, and quite a few were never expanded upon (Quantum Break, Sunset Overdrive, ReCore etc.). Outside of the Forza games, a lot of people felt the quality dropped for IP like Halo and Gears, and their 1P teams had very little new IP last gen.
There's a notable difference historically and that has to be acknowledged. It's part of the reason Microsoft went and started acquiring developers in 2018, then publishers starting in 2020. But it's arguable if they should've created new studios like The Initiative and instead perhaps expanded existing studios so they could potentially take on more projects in rotation.
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Papacheeks
Banned
The first part is what most sane people have been saying for a long time. But I feel Microsoft’s issue isn’t just managing studios, it’s a culture thing as well.
Dr Bass
Member
It’s hard to say from the outside looking in, but judging based on results and common sense I think you are more likely correct than not. MS does not have the strongest history with acquisitions, and that goes well beyond the Xbox division.
kingfey
Banned
That is false. There are family stuff that can make people leave their job. People would like other stuff. Not everyone stays on a job, because it makes alot of money.
This is on both sides. One side things is a gloom, while the other doesnt.
From an outside prespective, this is really nothing. This isnt a new IP, which this guy come up. This is still Rare IP. The project is still alive, and other people can take the helm. People who worked with him, are still staying at the job. They know what to do. Only those who have no idea about this, will make it a big deal.
They are common.
Ubisoft’s Division, Avatar and Star Wars studio boss confirms resignation | VGC
David Polfeldt was originally due to return in a strategic role following a sabbatical…
www.videogameschronicle.com
That is the boss of Ubisoft division game studio. He didnt feel like managing alot of people.
Plus other companies will offer better incentives to get people like him. MS wont be able to keep that guy for a long time.
The denial are those who wants to make a big deal out of this.
This is a person, who worked on that company for 3 years and 8 months. That is a quite long time, for someone that "doesnt like the project direction", as people make it out to be. He also worked with CD for about 12 years. He will want some new fresh air on other jobs.
Stuart360
Member
No one knows why he left at the end of the day. It could be personal problems, family issues, stress, a better offer from elsewhere.
We have had plenty of 'x dev leaves Sony studio' threads on here over recent years and the threads dont end up in the 'Sony is doomed' realm like it does with Xbox staff.
Maybe get Ethomaz to tweet him and find out the reason.
We have had plenty of 'x dev leaves Sony studio' threads on here over recent years and the threads dont end up in the 'Sony is doomed' realm like it does with Xbox staff.
Maybe get Ethomaz to tweet him and find out the reason.
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HieroglyphicMonk
Banned
Don't big developers get bonuses based off game sales??? Maybe Microsoft bonuses are different because of gamepass.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Depends by publisher. Some have bonuses based on Metacritic averages.
It's well reported that Obsidian staff missed on a bonus because Fallout: New Vegas didn't hit 85 on Metacritic.
octiny
Banned
/thread
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Yeah. Dude left, that's literally all we know.
kingfey
Banned
MS is getting the opportunity presented to them. Zenimax come on a good time, while they were under. Activision wanted to sell fast, and MS approached them.
The problem, is that the date they started expanding their studios was late. Sony started that job on day1 with ps1. Nintendo had way early start with their studios. MS were late to the party, and didnt bother investing on their studios, until 2014. They bough minecraft, because the owner, posted that he wanted to sell the company. 2017 is when they went studio hunt.
As for timed exclusive, Xbox doesnt a big chart. That is Sony. They will have to fight Sony, to get those timed exclusives. Buying the company was more logical to them.
Rare, and 343i are abusing the hands off approach. Its why they do whatever they want. This is the thing that makes MS looks incompetent. They gave platinum games freedom, and MS had to cancel scale bound, because the project got out of hands. As long as that thing is present, MS will have issues in the future.
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
I dont think is anyone is arguing that during the latter part of the 360s life and xbox one's, there first party was lacking, but thats a bit different than saying there game management sucked, despite having less first parties they have still delivered some great games and now since there aquisitions I dont see any reasons why these devs cant continue to produce great games under the Xbox umbrella.
Dr Bass
Member
Dude your posts continue to be nonsense. No it is not false that leads often leave because they are unhappy. Once you get to that level of responsibility, continually jumping ship is not a good look. You only leave when there is a good reason. Yes it could be family related. It could be something else. I agree we don't know the whole story, but the point is, it's certainly not possible that it is a positive development. There is a good chance it could be a negative one, and that is all that is being speculated here. It's a news story, and it just means something happened behind the scenes, and we don't know what.That is false. There are family stuff that can make people leave their job. People would like other stuff. Not everyone stays on a job, because it makes alot of money.
This is on both sides. One side things is a gloom, while the other doesnt.
From an outside prespective, this is really nothing. This isnt a new IP, which this guy come up. This is still Rare IP. The project is still alive, and other people can take the helm. People who worked with him, are still staying at the job. They know what to do. Only those who have no idea about this, will make it a big deal.
They are common.
Ubisoft’s Division, Avatar and Star Wars studio boss confirms resignation | VGC
David Polfeldt was originally due to return in a strategic role following a sabbatical…
That is the boss of Ubisoft division game studio. He didnt feel like managing alot of people.
Plus other companies will offer better incentives to get people like him. MS wont be able to keep that guy for a long time.
The denial are those who wants to make a big deal out of this.
This is a person, who worked on that company for 3 years and 8 months. That is a quite long time, for someone that "doesnt like the project direction", as people make it out to be. He also worked with CD for about 12 years. He will want some new fresh air on other jobs.
We have the same, same, group of people arguing to the death this means nothing, couldn't possibly mean anything. Those same people jump into other threads and try to absolutely trash the other side of the industry while admitting they don't even try the products. I have an Xbox and play it regularly. This is not about warring, this is about discussing industry news, that was immediately turned into warring by, again, the usual group of people.
BTW, working as a lead somewhere for nearly 4 years with zero to show? I have a decent idea why he might have left, but I'll get shouted down by said group.
Leaving is evidence. If you don't understand that you've never had a career, or had a relationship with adults on any level.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
Hate to say it but that's somewhat true. Nokia, Mixer etc. I think it might just be for those aimed at consumer entertainment spaces though, to be fair. Their acquisitions related to medical research, data centers etc., basically those more business-orientated, have gone through without a hitch. At the same time, that's Microsoft's identity at their core; a massive focus on business & enterprise fields, so it isn't too surprising.
Also I really do wonder how much a good fit Matt Booty is for XGS; his background seems to mainly be in Minecraft's success from what I can tell, but that's a pretty specific game design DNA that most of the other XGS studios don't traditionally have. Might be a bit telling that two the biggest new IP successes from XGS over the past several years are Sea of Thieves and Grounded, both of which fit that Minecraft-style mold more than, say, Halo or Gears.
Yeah true, it could be personal reasons for sure. But the optics don't line up to make this look too good, in any case. It's like when the Everwild getting rebooted stuff started floating out; it'd of been nice if there was maybe word officially from MS or Rare, or new gameplay footage, to quell those worries to rest and reassure the fans. But it didn't happen, and some people are rightfully concerned about the game's state. Personally I think it's possible it might've been quietly cancelled or another game project taking it's place that could be spun as a "reimaging" of the Everwild concept, and no one would ever really know.
And yes Sony has had people leave their teams over the past few years. The difference though is that those teams still had consistent results in finished products throughout the PS4/XBO generation, and Sony themselves seem better at pacing official updates for their 1P releases, even moreso than Nintendo at times, and they're both better at that than Microsoft currently.
They've built up enough rapport and credibility in their released games the past several years to earn trust from people when a smaller team member departs. Microsoft still need to earn that trust; they're on a good road towards starting that but for the majority they probably still have a long way to go.
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Complete nonsense.
Dr Bass
Member
Can you find any? I honestly don't remember any.
Your last line is hilarious.
Nope, its absolutely true. You can't just "deny" things without any reasoning and think thats an argument. You don't think quitting a job is evidence of not wanting to work at that job anymore? Seriously think how incredibly ridiculous that claim sounds. You're just wrong and you have no response. Do people generally quit happy relationships?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
It's pure conjecture on your part. Dude leaves for unknown reasons and you think it's evidence that the project is being mismanaged. Nothing about this is "absolutely true" lmao
kingfey
Banned
No one is accusing of fanboyish.
This guy leaving doesnt have that much impact to the game. The project is still Rare IP. They are the ones who have control over the game. The guy worked with the initiative for almost 4 years. They have road map of what they will do next.
Now for the reason he left, that could be anything. Whether he disagreed with MS direction, or they got new replacement. We dont know the full story like you said. But as for the impact this will have on the game will be minimum. If this was new IP, yes I would have been super worried. As a person who managed and worked with team doing projects, that is some serious shit. but since this is still a Rare IP, I am not worried about it.
Stuart360
Member
But there are loads of potential reasons why he may of left, i gave 3 or 4 reasons above. You're going on about a certain groep writing this off as nothing, while its a certain other group that are acting like this is the end of the world, both extremes.
And there have been loads of threads about Sony staff leaving over the last couple of years on here, which are just written off as 'just part of the industry and means nothing' rightly so often i'm sure. Well that works both ways.
I dont know, maybe do a forum search of 'leaving' or left' and see what search results show up.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
While I agree its possible that it could be because the GD is causing issues or left because of issues at the initiative but It could also be a positive development if he did great work and his replacement will also do great work.
And I dont know of you're referring to me about trashing products without even trying them...
Yeah I dont need to spend £70 on game just to know if I would like it, I played the first game for about 12 hours and watched hrs of footage, your telling me you buy every game just to be able to tell if you would like it or not... That has to be the worst argument thats ever existed.
Also I have a PS5 and currently playing through UC4 remastered and the last guardian, so yeah I do play "there products" ive had every playstation since the PS2 lol, im probably a bigger playstation fan then some of the folks here.
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Dr Bass
Member
I said it's possible that he was unhappy. Where did I say mismanaged? You're either mixing me up with someone else, projecting, or engaging in a straw man argument.
I also agreed that we don't know, but quitting is generally a much stronger sign of being unhappy, than thinking "this game is fantastic, and my work here is done!" I mean give me a break. I then gave examples of why people quit, suggesting a pretty recent and great example, centered around Theranos. Plenty of unhappy employees in that story.
Again, go look at the reasons most people quit their jobs. It's not a GOOD list. Trying to say it "means nothing" is just being in denial. Based on the level of employee he was, the fact he was in a previous role far longer, the amount of money he was surely being paid, the fact we have seen nothing on the game outside of a CGI trailer and it's been four years .. based upon a preponderance of the evidence, it seems like a safe assumption that he was not feeling it anymore, for one reason or another. Again. I could be wrong. But having been in this industry a pretty decent amount of time, this is simply not a new story.
There can just be no discussion of course, because those who want to discuss and make "conjecture" (yes, that is a part of discussing!) are being shouted down by the core group. Like we can't even discuss Horizon on this board without that same group coming in and trying to, again, ... shout everyone down. I honestly don't understand it.
So the idea was this guy quit because the game was so good he felt he no longer had any contribution to make. Makes sense.
Holy
, I was just trying to make an absurd joke and you literally just said the same exact thing, but were serious. I honestly am stunned.
After that, I'm out on this one!
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Maxwell Jacob Friedman
leads to fear. Fear leads to xbox.
This studios werent "advertised" and cloutted as the first AAAA studio.....
Bernd Lauert
Banned
Maybe just follow the conversation. It's literally all on this page.
kingfey
Banned
There would be a big issues, If CD is having issues with initiative. That is a much bigger deal, than the guy that left. That is basically huge red flag.
Craig of War
Banned
Ain't this normal people come and go all the time who cares
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