Extremely unlikely.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Polygon: Xbox Scorpio will be a ~6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14), unveil soon, Fall 17
- Thread starter BUNTING1243
- Start date
Extremely unlikely.
If it wouldn't cost anything extra, why not? It could act like a brute force to give games that do struggle some breathing room as well as help things that use a dynamic resolution possibly stay closer to 1080p. (Obviously it would be up to Microsoft for that to actually work)
Microsoft has to be moving towards an all new APU design I would assume just like Sony with the Neo because the process would have been more expensive to downsize than just moving to something new altogether. That change could facilitate even a modest bump while staying small.
Proelite
Member
If its nearly free R&D wise and BOM wise, then yes.
So probably no because BOM would increase.
Proelite
Member
More on Slim bump musings. FYI i dont think it will happen. Just fun to speculate.
Theoretically speaking, suppose that MS wants the slim to be the better alternative to base PS4 in every aspect. They decide that they have to match or exceed the performance.
They do the following.
Use a cut down version of the low end Polaris 11 as the GPU. Clock it at 1.2ghz.
Boost Cpu to 2.0ghz+.
PS4 has 32 ROPs. However thats running at 800mhz. Assuming p10 has 16 ROPs at 1.2 ghz, there is a lesser gap. Essentially 24 ROPs to 32 ROPs.
Esram clocks would need to be increased in tandem to keep sync, thus increasing the GPU bw for free.
Because of memory BW efficiencies in the new architecture, a ~50% increase in GPU capabilities can be had on the same DDR3 memory setup.
MS updates the existing XB1 SDK, makes it optional for devs to use the extra power. Ms uses some of the extra power for smoother OS and shit.'
As for for people who think there is too many versions that devs have to support, I argue that Scorpio and PC should be counted together, so essentially its
Xb1, Xb1 slim, and Scorpio / PC.
Now for the unknowns, which may or may not be a con. I think Microsoft would need to weigh the cons against the benefit of these spec bump.
Unknowns:
1. How much would be the difference in R&D cost between porting GCN1.1 to lower fab, versus redesigning the SOC to use Polaris.
2. What is the increase in TDP and heat and more importantly BOM cost of using Polaris at 1.2ghz versus using a simple shrink.
3. What's the cost of, to MS, of supporting the extra target in the SDK. Would the adoption rate by developers be high enough to justify the cost in man power and time in maintaining a more complicated XDK.
Theoretically speaking, suppose that MS wants the slim to be the better alternative to base PS4 in every aspect. They decide that they have to match or exceed the performance.
They do the following.
Use a cut down version of the low end Polaris 11 as the GPU. Clock it at 1.2ghz.
Boost Cpu to 2.0ghz+.
PS4 has 32 ROPs. However thats running at 800mhz. Assuming p10 has 16 ROPs at 1.2 ghz, there is a lesser gap. Essentially 24 ROPs to 32 ROPs.
Esram clocks would need to be increased in tandem to keep sync, thus increasing the GPU bw for free.
Because of memory BW efficiencies in the new architecture, a ~50% increase in GPU capabilities can be had on the same DDR3 memory setup.
MS updates the existing XB1 SDK, makes it optional for devs to use the extra power. Ms uses some of the extra power for smoother OS and shit.'
As for for people who think there is too many versions that devs have to support, I argue that Scorpio and PC should be counted together, so essentially its
Xb1, Xb1 slim, and Scorpio / PC.
Now for the unknowns, which may or may not be a con. I think Microsoft would need to weigh the cons against the benefit of these spec bump.
Unknowns:
1. How much would be the difference in R&D cost between porting GCN1.1 to lower fab, versus redesigning the SOC to use Polaris.
2. What is the increase in TDP and heat and more importantly BOM cost of using Polaris at 1.2ghz versus using a simple shrink.
3. What's the cost of, to MS, of supporting the extra target in the SDK. Would the adoption rate by developers be high enough to justify the cost in man power and time in maintaining a more complicated XDK.
Night Angel
Member
I love how the rumor directly says late/fall 2017 and yet some people are hyping themselves up for a late 2016 release based on absolutely nothing.
And MrX gets a mention. Wow, we're really going places.
And MrX gets a mention. Wow, we're really going places.
Proelite
Member
Indeed.
Na, XBOX 4 vs PS4 and PS4 Neo.
Neo isn't PS5.
XBOX 5 vs PS5 - Fall 2020-2021.
Just skip a number. Pretend XB1 Slim was internally Xbox 4 (like they pretended Win8.1 was Win9) and release Xbox 5 next year.
Hawk269
Member
I mentioned it before guys and girls, don't go into Monday morning expecting the Scorpio to be shown. If it is not shown, you will feel disappointed in the conference. I am going in with the expectation that Scorpio will not be shown or even mentioned. If it is mentioned and/or shown then my socks will be blown off, but not going to over hype myself and feel let down if they don't show/mention it.
Tempering my expectations on any hardware related things and just looking forward to all the games they will be showing. Hardware related things will be the "bonus" stuff for me that can take the conference to another level.
Tempering my expectations on any hardware related things and just looking forward to all the games they will be showing. Hardware related things will be the "bonus" stuff for me that can take the conference to another level.
Don't go into ANY press conference with expectations. You'll have a bad time. Majority of the negativity for these things is from "I didn't get X, and I wanted X, so this presser sucked."
Unless it's an embarrassing shit-fest, then, feel free to attack.
But there is not a *single* game that is using it right now. Oh, I know, the APIs aren't made available yet...
I don't say the chip doesn't exist but there is only so much a chip can do and I have yet to see a real game application for it.
Not to mention that you only think it will happen. Sometimes your posts just say it will happen while you only strongly believe it will happen. Which only time will tell us.
Leyasu
Banned
Lol is that even a question?? Sony has a legion on every forum.
I'm not expecting to see this at E3.
To migrate to a new architecture, to keep costs down by sharing components with the faster version?
There are quite a few reasons you would do that
jeff_rigby
Banned
Then you have the ARM IP and Xtensa accelerators for the XB1 are in the APU so they can't be changed without a new APU. For those who are clueless and assume the Launch XB1 can't support UHD Media, they would have to supply a new APU with a totally new design and OS support for UHD.
For those who are dialed in, the Launch XB1 can support UHD media but the ARM IP and Xtensa DPUs have gone through three generations and are much more efficient and powerful as are AMD GPUs and CPUs compared to the designs in the XB1 APU. Does the Launch APU support every media feature Microsoft wants or were there tradeoffs that are now possible.
Sometime 2017 the FCC will mandate Cable companies have to support allowing CE manufacturers direct access which eliminates the Cable card and cable boxes so the HDMI pass through is not needed. Every platform with a ARM Trustzone TEE and HDMI 2 with HDCP taking place in the TEE can support UHD Media and direct access to Cable TV media without a cable box or cable card using a Downloadable security scheme. This is in place for the PS4 and XB1 but for the doubters, the APU would need to be redesigned and no launch XB1 or PS4 could support this.
As I understand, accelerators will supplement many of the functions that are now done entirely by CPUs and GPUs as they are 25X more efficient. Developers who are provided APIs where functions that are done by GPU compute will see no change except for the system GPU and CPU access increasing for games. OpenVX being implemented in drivers by AMD and Nvidia in the last few months opens the door for a more efficient way to use the accelerators that venders/manufacturers of platforms must provide. I believe Sony and Microsoft were waiting for AMD and Nvidia to release their drivers before they implement OpenVX on the Consoles. Developers who use OpenVX would then have no problem porting their games to other platforms.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Given Microsoft keeping the ARM IP in the APU they can't use GDDR5 so they can't use Polaris, they must wait for Vega using HBM2. A quick comparison between Polaris and Vega given the same TDP budget is where I got the 6TF and that was confirmed two days later with a "Leak".
Sony moved the ARM IP out of the APU to Southbridge with it's own 256 MB DDR3 so they could use GDDR5. Because Polaris uses GDDR5 they can have a cheaper console something like a year before Microsoft can.
In the letters to the EU power board the next iteration/power tier happens in 2019 and that is a year after AMD's Navi is released. A quick comparison given the same TDP would give 10TF and both Microsoft and Sony using HBM or whatever the technology happens to be. This will be a slight bump in the OS for Microsoft but a major change for Sony.
The Scorpio 5-6 TF figure is from people making it up assuming the XB1 can use Polaris. Where does Microsoft get the extra TF over the Sony NEO? The delay is explained as Microsoft was surprised by NEO and that puts them behind.... We have to assume they don't know each others plans.
There can be a XB1 slim using parts of Polaris with DDR3/4 and that would give them something close to PS4 performance with a MUCH smaller die and lower cost. They will still be memory bandwidth limited given they still can't use GDDR5 but Polaris having an accelerator for Game asset compression helps with that.
Bitch Pudding
Member
They have CEO Kaz, and are fucking proud about that. (wait are you referring to Mrxmedia oder a former user called Mr.X?)
justsomeguy
Member
.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Given Microsoft keeping the ARM IP in the APU they can't use GDDR5 so they can't use Polaris, they must wait for Vega using HBM2. A quick comparison between Polaris and Vega given the same TDP budget is where I got the 6TF and that was confirmed two days later with a "Leak".
Sony moved the ARM IP out of the APU to Southbridge with it's own 265 MB DDR3 so they could use GDDR5. Because Polaris uses GDDR5 they can have a cheaper console something like a year before Microsoft can.
In the letters to the EU power board the next iteration/power tier happens in 2019 and that is a year after AMD's Navi is released. A quick comparison given the same TDP would give 10TF and both Microsoft and Sony using HBM or whatever the technology happens to be. This will be a slight bump in the OS for Microsoft but a major change for Sony.
The Scorpio 5-6 TF figure is from people making it up assuming the XB1 can use Polaris. Where does Microsoft get the extra TF over the Sony NEO? The delay is explained as Microsoft was surprised by NEO and that puts them behind.... We have to assume they don't know each others plans.
I am pretty certain that talk Spencer gave about updated revisions came before the first Neo leak. And at that point (when you tell the press) Scorpio must have been at least a year in development. So no, they most certainly were not surprised by Neo.
justsomeguy
Member
Oh ... yeah. Oops.
It was 1am or something and I'd been up feeding my 6 week old twins and was like a zombie... and your names both start with e. That's my excuse :lol:
pfff....
Tatsumi Oga
Banned
It's best to just not get your hopes up at all. Even though Polygon is saying reveal is soon, it's anything but confirmed to be even happening. It's only Polygon saying that the reveal is soon, right? Or did others sources say that as well?
Didn't Sony mention it in October? When did Microsoft start dropping hints?
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Microsoft were the first to publicly mention it earlier this year. Infact they are the only ones to mention new harware in any specific terms. Although i'm sure they did so because they were aware that Neo information was close to be being leaked. (meetings with retailers, dev kits going out). It keeps them in the picture etc.
I don't think we would be hearing about Scorpio at all just yet if the Neo didn't exist.
MaulerX
Member
Maybe I'm overthinking things but in retrospect Phil may have fudded Sony into leaking Neo info. If I remember correctly Phil talks of upgraded hardware. Then all of a sudden that very week the floodgates open on Neo specifics. Then after that Phil very calmly states he's not interested in .5 upgrades, but a significant upgrade. Now we have the Scorpio talk. Phil threw a line and bait and somebody bit.
KinofChaos
Banned
No they weren't, sony mentioned it as far back as 2015.
Information on the Neo leaked because Sony disclosed it to developers at GDC, which they did because they want developers to be ready for it in October.
wapplew
Member
Who baited who now?
People speculate on everything, that included. Extremely unlikely and there's absolutely no reason for it.
In Service
Member
I'm not sure. The timing seems in line but Sony just didn't pull the Neo from their butt because Phil talked about upgrades.
It must have been in the pipeline for much longer than that.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Did not. Show me the threads. There was zero rumour or information about a new PS4 SKU before March 2016.
Bits N Pieces
Member
I think it's safe to assume that both MS and Sony have been working on their new hardware for a while now.
I can't see either of them showing new improved hardware at E3, these machines need their own stand-alone events.
I can't see either of them showing new improved hardware at E3, these machines need their own stand-alone events.
...Scatter...
Banned
I'm going to assume the sensible thing that both companies have moles at AMD.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
True, but that was only a brief murmerring. A bit different than publicly 'announcing' it live on stage during a press conference. Plus to this day, Sony haven't officially acknowledged the Neo, even when there's far more known about it than the Xbox Scorpio. On the other hand MS have acknowledged it with the (maybe) controlled info leak, followed by the silly creative chatter Twitter and T shirt appearances.
Anyway it doesn't matter, we will know about them both in full soon enough.
Obscuritas
Member
Sorry but all of that is far from being an "official" talk, if you ask me.
They have to announce. They can't leave this E3 with Sony saying 'something more powerful than the thing we already have that beats out the XB1 is coming soon', and not have a counter measure. It looks weak as hell.
wapplew
Member
Not official talk but official bait.
lol. So we are back at who said it first. Amazing.
Just because X said it first or last does not mean X started to work on it first. Can't believe someone is so closed minded and media blind.
None here is working on these consoles thus we can't say anything for sure about who started first. The only thing we got is Media PR crap from either company.
And you guys arguing and fighting about who worked on X first , looking through those bookmarks pages you saved, Finding that one link that's gonna proof me right. Fighting the good fight like it's your own company when in reality we don't know shit.
Hope warriors getting payed for any of these works.
Otherwise it looks........
Just because X said it first or last does not mean X started to work on it first. Can't believe someone is so closed minded and media blind.
None here is working on these consoles thus we can't say anything for sure about who started first. The only thing we got is Media PR crap from either company.
And you guys arguing and fighting about who worked on X first , looking through those bookmarks pages you saved, Finding that one link that's gonna proof me right. Fighting the good fight like it's your own company when in reality we don't know shit.
Hope warriors getting payed for any of these works.
Otherwise it looks........
Yep. After close to 180 pages we are back at the point of who did what first. Like it matters?
I haven't been active on these threads but I can tell you this.
Am having a blast reading some of the comments. Funny shit.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Exactly, MS and Sony share plenty of suppliers and everything else, that's too many people for things not to leak back and forth.
"MS baiting Sony" or vice versa is just bizarro system wars fan fiction.
3rdamention
Member
But your quote he was responding to says this:
Which was false (even after you edited in more info), Sony mentioned it last year. You never said anything about being on stage and announcing it. None of it matters anyways, the arguement is old. In a week, we will know more about some of this, I just dont think Scorpio will be something we know more about.
And I dont know how the Microsoft leak could be a "controlled leak" which in your statement is "Microsoft acknowledging it" but Sony's leak wasn't "acknowledged" by Sony and must not have been a controlled leak. They were both leaks.
jeff_rigby
Banned
A mole told Charlie at Semiaccurate that Sony was planning what came to be known as NEO as far back as 10/2013.
Posted on the Second custom chip making this easier in that thread. In 2012 Charlie was posting info from a mole that the PS4 would be a two chip solution and the XB1 a one chip. For the PS4, they moved the ARM IP out of the AMU so they could use GDDR5 while Microsoft left it in the APU and they had to supplement DDR3 with 32 MB SDRAM on chip.
KinofChaos
Banned
Look at them goal posts move lol.
You're honestly doubling down on this. Okay.
MaulerX
Member
Of course Sony didn't pull Neo out of their ass. What I meant was that it almost seems as if someone felt compelled to leak Neo stuff perhaps sooner than planned because Phil said something. It's too much of a coincidence the way that played out.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Ah the usual suspects projecting their own mindsets onto others with hit n run driveby posts. Including but not limited to seasoned veterans and previously banned alts. What a pleasant surprise for an Xbox thread!
I don't give a monkeys who 'announced' first, the fact remains that neither of them have announced in an official capacity, but MS are the only ones to acknowledge their new hardware plans in any real terms, specifically with an on stage speech earlier this year. That's what mostly started all this new hardware talk, the Neo stuff came later. All that will clearly change as of next week.
But yes, everything is "for the warz". Some of you lot need to grow up, seriously.
I don't give a monkeys who 'announced' first, the fact remains that neither of them have announced in an official capacity, but MS are the only ones to acknowledge their new hardware plans in any real terms, specifically with an on stage speech earlier this year. That's what mostly started all this new hardware talk, the Neo stuff came later. All that will clearly change as of next week.
But yes, everything is "for the warz". Some of you lot need to grow up, seriously.
Really?