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Project Scorpio supports FreeSync and next-gen HDMI
- Thread starter mocoworm
- Start date
SonicAaron
Member
Nothing like buying a console with technology of the future to play 360 games :S
EventHorizon
Member
Specs and features alone <> design. Pricing and timing have to be considered. Like i said, if Scorpio costs $499+ and comes out a year later would you still say it was better designed?
It'd be nonsense to say the PS2 was poorly designed because it is garbage by today's standards of specs and features. As for price, the inclusion of Kinect which caused the XB1 to be $100 more than the PS4 at launch was a very poor design choice. By your criteria, a $1000 Steam Machine would be far better designed than Scorpio. You can always add features and specs by throwing money at it. Good design gets you those features and specs at a good price.
Yes, Scorpio will have the best console specs and features, but that is not what you originally claimed. You said Microsoft "out-designed" Sony which is a claim you can't make without also factoring in price and the year's head start the Pro has.
DangerMouse
Member
grandwizard
Member
This huge and great news. To all the console-only people wondering what the big deal about variable refresh rate is, I encourage you to scan the now almost 3 years old and still going g-sync upgrade thread and see the reactions for yourself.
For me, G-Sync was one of the best upgrades in pure gaming experience I've had in over two decades of PC gaming. It's just such an enormous improvement how things look and feel, and there is no going back.
For me, G-Sync was one of the best upgrades in pure gaming experience I've had in over two decades of PC gaming. It's just such an enormous improvement how things look and feel, and there is no going back.
VincentMatts
Member
Well, they didnt have to include the support for 360 at all. I like that compatibility is important to them. It makes me want to invest more in their store knowing that they'll actually make an effort in the future to make sure that the games i buy now will work for a long time.
arhra
Member
It should help, actually. GTA4's framerate will still be all over the damn place (although with Scorpio's grunt behind it, it should be averaging somewhat higher), but freesync would at least make it so it's not a constant juddery mess.
You could say the same thing last year about 4K TVs (heck even now) and Pro.
Sony did "PS4k" without enough juice for native 4k res (in all games) or a 4K disk player.
I don't want to call it half assed but it's ..something. I guess they wanted to get to VR first.
For people speculating that this means the end of framerate locks, it might not.
If a game is targeting 30 FPS, that means it might jump from 25-60 FPS unlocked. (I assume games will still be capped to 60)
While FreeSync helps, you're still going to notice huge framerate changes like that.
What developers could do is pick an arbitrary framerate target though - like 35 FPS or 40 FPS - so it still retains some degree of consistency, but you don't feel it when the framerate occasionally dips below that.
With my G-Sync monitor, having a game that jumps between 40 FPS and 100 FPS depending on what is being displayed on-screen can be jarring.
In that situation it can be preferable to cap it to something lower.
Really depends on the game though, and how variable its performance is.
Variable Refresh Rate displays don't suddenly make you blind to framerates, but they make small fluctuations completely unnoticeable, and make bigger drops/lower framerates more tolerable.
They allowed manufacturers to update their HDMI 1.4 displays with HDMI 2.0 features, which meant that you had a generation of TVs that would only do 4K30 despite being listed as "HDMI 2.0".
It was a complete disaster.
From a consumer point of view, hopefully features like VRR could be added via firmware updates, so long as the manufacturers are not allowed to sell that as "HDMI 2.1" support.
The TV's scaler may not support those features though. It's not just software.
It will also be interesting to see if Sony can support this on the PS4/Pro with an update too.
If a game is targeting 30 FPS, that means it might jump from 25-60 FPS unlocked. (I assume games will still be capped to 60)
While FreeSync helps, you're still going to notice huge framerate changes like that.
What developers could do is pick an arbitrary framerate target though - like 35 FPS or 40 FPS - so it still retains some degree of consistency, but you don't feel it when the framerate occasionally dips below that.
With my G-Sync monitor, having a game that jumps between 40 FPS and 100 FPS depending on what is being displayed on-screen can be jarring.
In that situation it can be preferable to cap it to something lower.
Really depends on the game though, and how variable its performance is.
Variable Refresh Rate displays don't suddenly make you blind to framerates, but they make small fluctuations completely unnoticeable, and make bigger drops/lower framerates more tolerable.
The problem with that, is that they did the same thing with HDMI 2.0
They allowed manufacturers to update their HDMI 1.4 displays with HDMI 2.0 features, which meant that you had a generation of TVs that would only do 4K30 despite being listed as "HDMI 2.0".
It was a complete disaster.
From a consumer point of view, hopefully features like VRR could be added via firmware updates, so long as the manufacturers are not allowed to sell that as "HDMI 2.1" support.
The TV's scaler may not support those features though. It's not just software.
It will also be interesting to see if Sony can support this on the PS4/Pro with an update too.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
I agree, but there is something of a counter-argument in pointing out VRR as a feature is pretty damn niche; its not something that most consumers will understand or even necessarily want.
After all its not something that meshes with either pressed or streamed video-media, making its application purely for gaming devices with matching output capability, and software that drives that functionality.
Its simply not something that most consumers want, and as such is best suited for displays that target that niche market specifically... with the typical price-premium that comes with that.
They might if they see everyone but them supporting Freesync.
At least I'm dreaming they might. Just don't want to end up with a $700 doorstop 4 or 5 years down the road
SolidSnakeUS
Member
4K TVs have at least been out and available for at least a year leading up to the PS4 Pro. There are literally zero FreeSync TVs in the pipeline (that we know of). Plus, Sony felt the console was more of a gaming system than an all-in-one, and the price of the 4K Blu-Ray player would of made it more than $400 as is.
They might if they see everyone but them supporting Freesync.
At least I'm dreaming they might. Just don't want to end up with a $700 doorstop 4 or 5 years down the road
As someone who is PC first and has been following the G-sync/Freesync thing for the past couple of years, Nvidia has literally no reason to open up that tech to other companies.
It will help with the actual gaming experience, but it won't change the performance or the FPS itself is my point
Yeah it is. It shows that one of the console makers are thinking about vrr and building support for a upcoming spec change , HDMI 2.1.
It's a game changer.
WTH, why have what I quoted in its tech specs? Talk about mis-leading.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
It also helps that FreeSync is basically standard on all new GPUs coming out. I know it's not on the PS4 Pro (can possibly be updated with firmware?) but pretty much from this point on, all AMD GPUs will have FreeSync built in. If anything, it would be more surprising if Scorpio DIDN'T have FreeSync.
It'd be surprising if it didn't have a feature which is supported in hardly any monitors and zero TV's?
That's why everyone in here is surprised?
mindatlarge
Member
As someone who plays consoles on gaming monitors, this news is very welcome.
Samurai G0SU
Member
I should ask someone to tweet the Vizio CTO to add Freesync into their P-Series line up!
The implementation is so limited, that i'm quite surprised they announced it.
But it's completely free to implement and they were already going to use the new HDMI spec anyway, so yeah. It makes sense.
What's a good monitor that takes advantage of this now? I was always set on a Gsync, since I have a 980ti...
It's in Every, Single, Thread. I've learnt to ignore it, and it's always the same posters too. I rarely make comparisons, because frankly I don't have the energy for it
SolidSnakeUS
Member
What I'm getting at is that it's to be expected that AMD would put that on whatever products that they can, however, I think some people are getting way way too hyped about it when more than likely TVs probably won't have the option (or more often of an option) until 2019. Most people don't play on PC monitors, which are the only things supporting FreeSync right now, so while this is cool that a console is doing this, it doesn't exactly change the status quo much.
Felix Lighter
Member
When the HDMI spec is ratified and support is added to new televisions, if Nvidia continues to refuse to support Freesync, that would be enough for me to move back to AMD for future graphics card purchases.
SolidSnakeUS
Member
Nvidia will continue for probably quite a long time refuse the support of FreeSync because they have their own version that works very well and it makes them money.
First - this is great. Hopefully means XB2/PS5 have this as standard too. Shame I just bought a TV but in 3-5 years I'll be ready
Second- of consoles go to this model, do we need to redefine framerate? If 60fps is better than 30fps, where between 30-60 is a reasonable sweet spot of a game can't maintain 60. Is 45 good?
How about variability? If you take a '30fps unlocked' game that can spike up and down, how does that feel when playing and should that be avoided as much as possible?
Second- of consoles go to this model, do we need to redefine framerate? If 60fps is better than 30fps, where between 30-60 is a reasonable sweet spot of a game can't maintain 60. Is 45 good?
How about variability? If you take a '30fps unlocked' game that can spike up and down, how does that feel when playing and should that be avoided as much as possible?
Man... was just about to pull the trigger on a new KS8000 or XBR900E TV (Still can't decide which to get) but I may hold off and wait till the end of year or until we have more info on the freesync TV's.
That or I may just still get a new TV now and wait and see how the free sync tech shapes up/matures later on.
That or I may just still get a new TV now and wait and see how the free sync tech shapes up/matures later on.
Freesync is nice, sounds nice....but I'm sticking with TV.
Can I get a 4K TV first MS? lol.
I know I should read to see if its been mentioned but can it be done by a firmware update?
If so...
....Scorpio....
Can I get a 4K TV first MS? lol.
I know I should read to see if its been mentioned but can it be done by a firmware update?
If so...
....Scorpio....
Beer Monkey
Member
When I build a state of the art gaming rig it's to continue to play games 20+ years old, among other things.
One of the reasons I bought a PS3 at launch for $599 was that it played PS2 games.
Hint: People like to play games they own. People like the ability to play and even buy games that have already been released in the past. They like them to run well.
Adaptive sync exists since ages already, but only as part of eDP, the internal connector for display panels. G-Sync is Nvidia's approach to bridge the gap between GPU and monitor, Freesync is AMD's. This led to standardizing adaptive sync over DP since version 1.2a, and VRR standardizing this over HDMI in version 2.1. So in a way you could say VRR is Freesync 1.
Freesync 2 is a whole bundle of requirements, more similar to G-Sync in that is requires a minimum frequency range for the display to be capable of so that LFC (low framerate compensation) always works, and includes dynamic HDR that has to be applied by the display without lag.
G-Sync, outside of directly using eDP in laptops, is currently always using proprietary hardware by Nvidia. Freesync (2) is just a set of recommendations (requirements) building upon adaptive sync that anybody can follow and implement for free. Of course the latter is more likely to spread.
Sony also uses AMD APUs so they totally could use the same standards.
I dunno. Just from going down the list at that link that someone else posted earlier about compatible monitors (a link likely from 2015) I've only found one that supports Freesync over HDMI, and it's 1920x1080 (the LG MP68). Still looking through it though. The Acer XF290C specifically says DP only, and it's UltraWide (we have no confirmation Ultrawide will be supported), the LG 34UM58 on the list doesn't even support Freesync at all (the *68 model does, but only through DisplayPort).
So far the Samsung ones seem to have HDMI Freesync (the ones that exist).
EventHorizon
Member
Which once again totally ignores price. The Pro offered "very close" to 4k gaming at $399 last year. The Pro was so close to native 4k that even Digital Foundry had to examine closely to tell the difference and is now currently saying that 4K resolution alone won't be the deciding factor between Scorpio and the Pro. The likely benefit of Scorpio will not be the resolution but better textures and a more stable framerate. I even think framerate will be comparable once games are specifically written with the Pro in mind. Which brings up another point.
People aren't considering the impact of the 1 year's lead time the Pro has with developer support. Console games look better over time as developers make more efficient use of the hardware. Pro development will be one year ahead of Scorpio in this regard. Scorpio will have more room for growth and will obviously tap out later than the Pro, but by that time it'll start competing with the PS5.
As for the lack of a player, that was...wait for it...a good design choice that kept price down. Just because you wanted a 4k player included doesn't mean the market required it. Note that the Xbox 360 never had a Blu-Ray player and sold just fine. Too many on Gaf keep making the mistake on a variety of issues of equating their wishes with that of the general public.
The $399 price point of the Pro was one if its best features. The $399 Pro was priced the exact same as the 2TB Xbox One S that has no hope of coming anywhere near 4K gaming.
Let. That. Sink. In.
If the Pro didn't up its processing power it would have just been the typical 2TB version of the base console at $399 and nobody would have said a single word about it. It only gets criticized from overly entitled gamers who now somehow feel they deserved more.
Felix Lighter
Member
Gsync is great. I have a Gsync monitor. When it comes to monitors, Nvidia is in a position to push for support of the technology but when it comes to televisions, I only expect manufacturers to support variable refresh rates along with the HDMI 2.1 spec and only if devices like games consoles also support it. With the Scorpio supporting it, that's a start.
Samurai G0SU
Member
I really dont know myself - i think i seen one or two comments suggesting some HDMI 2.0 can be updated to 2.1 or something along those lines. But i kinda feel it in my bones that its a dream i shouldn't conjure up
(((but still...
Scorpio
justsomeguy
Member
Cod blops2 back compat no doubt.
therealbigrich
Member
Just recently bought a ks8000 and at least there's no TV's so I don't feel as bad that there is no free since TV's. Definitely see a early 2019 4k OLED free sync picture in my future lol
The Hamburglar
Banned
erm yeah I do, it is not rocket science. I have a gsnyc monitor and understand how it works perfectly. So much so you have to disable vsync in game.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Game changer!
Hopefully the LG OLED 2018 range will support 2.1.
Wonder if the PS4 Pro will enable it in future.
Hopefully the LG OLED 2018 range will support 2.1.
Wonder if the PS4 Pro will enable it in future.
Bornstellar
Member
Now this is exciting. Especially if it means we start getting freesync / gsync OLED displays.
Thebeardofknowledge
Banned
I applaude Microsoft for doing this but this won't matter for the majority of people until 2018/2019 because of tv hardware.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Albert was nice enough to tell me about this a couple of days ago.....hard to keep my big mouth shut so I am glad this is finally out there.
I plan on getting a large (75-inch or bigger) UHD HDR TV next year and now with Scorpio including both VRR and UHD Blu Ray movie functionality, HDMI 2.1 will be a must have for that TV.
I plan on getting a large (75-inch or bigger) UHD HDR TV next year and now with Scorpio including both VRR and UHD Blu Ray movie functionality, HDMI 2.1 will be a must have for that TV.
They better include it in the 2018 models. I will personally hammer this in the head of the LG rep I know and hope you all do the same(social media wise). Ask for VRR & HDMI 2.1 inclusion from major TV manufacturers. Let them know the demand is there. Or at least some demand. VRR is beneficial for the industry as a whole and needs to become a standard asap.