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[ekim]

So what level of graphics should we expect?

I expect them to be like Watch Dogs & SW1313 in the beginning and Samaritan Demo at the end of gen.

 

[Canis lupus]

Could be the AMD GPU as it's going to do a limited ray-tracing for lighting called bundled ray tracing but it could also be a add-on co-processor to augment the GPU and would be more CPU like. I ran across a couple of tech papers mentioning it but only in passing so I know nothing about it other than it's possible.

FPGA in this case is probably prototyping using a FPGA. Or maybe not because the Sony CTO mentioned programmable logic arrays and SimiAccurate translated that to FPGA (Field programmable gate arrays).

Sea island gpu?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Wow so both consoles are going to be practically the same? Same CPU and same GPU. If the memory rumors are still true, then we may have one with a lot more memory and the other with a lot more bandwidth, but that may have changed as well.

If the consoles came to be nearly identical I'd be kinda disappointed.

Warning, I added the 0 in RED and anyone copying my post with out the red and the explanation for why I added the Zero may be misleading.

Xbox Durango and Playstation Orbis have both changed recently...

Durango -> "I don't know the name"
4 Power7 cores + 2 ARM cores(2010) -> 4 AMD Jaguar cores(2012)
48+16 VLIW4 SPs(2010) -> 1920 GCN SPs(2012)

Orbis -> Thebe-Jaguar
4 AMD Steamroller cores(2011) -> 4 AMD Jaguar cores(2012)
128 GCN SPs(2011) -> 1920 GCN SPs(2012)
(year) is the date it was changed to...

Sony's version will be optimized for SonyGL 3.0/OpenGL 4.2
Microsoft's version will be optimized for DirectX 11.1

The Jaguar SoC for both consoles will not be the same as the Jaguar SoC for consumers.
AMD Jaguar vs Sony/Microsoft Jaguar
H1 2013 vs H1 2014
LP-DDR3/DDR3 vs DDR4(estimated clock is 2133 MHz 10-10-10-20 1.2v)
For x86 consumer markets vs specialized versions tweaked for each company
HSA 3/4ths vs HSA Complete

CU of 18 was rumored for PS4 GPU (32 CU=2048 SPs according to AMD) Add 0 to SPs mentioned above. This would be a more expensive design and higher than the rumored 18 CUs and may not be true. Also at 1920 the number is the same as the horizontal resolution @ 1080P or 1920 by 1080? 192 SPs is way too low for a next generation GPU so adding the Zero brings it above the rumor but is possible as pointed out by McHuj. The 128 SPs mentioned if a Zero is added to that would be 1280 which is equal to the 18 CU rumor (1152)....so this is probable (1280 GCN SPs(2011) -> 1920 GCN SPs(2012). Also 720P is 1280 X 720 .... is someone making up these numbers or is there a reason that the # of SPs match known resolutions?

Edit: Apparently I have to highlight important parts or it's misread by BY3D Moderators. is someone making up these numbers

 

[ekim]

What are GCN SPs?

 

[jeff_rigby]

What are GCN SPs?

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/gcn/Pages/gcn-architecture.aspx

 

[missile]

PS2's MIPS CPU core was little endian... hence: ...

And as such the PS3 used some little endian, initially, i.e. the Emotion
Engine. Hence, I expect some big endian within the PS4 as well, one way
or another.

 

[jeff_rigby]

And as such the PS3 used some little endian, initially, i.e. the Emotion
Engine. Hence, I expect some big endian within the PS4 as well, one way
or another.

Why not come out and say you expect emulation of the PS3 one way or another?

 

[dragonelite]

Why not come out and say you expect emulation of the PS3 one way or another?

I rather have software emulation then hardware to be honest yo could probably override some stuff better that way. With hardware i have a feeling you will get just the ps 3 version without improved resolution.
But that is probably not possible given how integrated the cell is on the graphical side?

 

[jeff_rigby]

I rather have software emulation then hardware to be honest yo could probably override some stuff better that way. With hardware i have a feeling you will get just the ps 3 version without improved resolution.
But that is probably not possible given how integrated the cell is on the graphical side?

Again, Cell BE can not be used in a PS4 but the 1PPU4SPU mentioned in the Sony 12/2010 patent can be used in a PS4 Multi-processor system. It would be an emulation of the PS3 hardware using a updated PPC and SPUs but not the RSX, Rambuss memory or Flex I/O.

 

[onQ123]

What does he mean with raytracer? Is that the price of the gpu wich is able to do raytracing? That seems a high clockspeed for the ram, though I don't know how much they're clocked in the ps360.

Caustics created a Ray-Tracing co-processor Imgtec bought the company & plan to get the ray-tracing chip into systems as a co-processor & then as part of their GPGPU & they are supposed to be showing off their GPGPU at Siggraph this year.

 

[sTeLioSco]

also jaguar are supposed to be low-power tablet parts correct?

if this "raytracer" if its real and has a gpu that can do raytracing in some magical way it will be great and a cheap solution for a system that can be sold less than 400 and do unique stuff......

 

[jeff_rigby]

Caustics created a Ray-Tracing co-processor Imgtec bought the company & plan to get the ray-tracing chip into systems as a co-processor & then as part of their GPGPU & they are supposed to be showing off their GPGPU at Siggraph this year.

CV for the guy who invented it:

CTO, FOUNDER – Caustic Graphics, Inc; San Francisco, CA 2006–
Founded company to bring cinema quality ray tracing to the mainstream.
Co-invented several patented algorithms to dramatically improve memory bandwidth
and SIMD efficiency of multi-core hardware architectures when processing scattered
rays for real-time performance in consumer applications. Deployed algorithms in both
90nm ASIC @ 350Mhz and FPGA form. Developed and shipped “OpenRL”, a
proposed industry standard, fully programmable graphics API for ray tracing.

Note that OpenRL is trademarked but Documentation seems to suggest it might become a Khronos standard.

Documentation

PowerVR who made the Sony Vita GPU is getting back into the desktop market with this product.

 

[phosphor112]

What's the significance of that CV? The FPGA thing?... or...?

 

[jeff_rigby]

What's the significance of that CV? The FPGA thing?... or...?

To answer that question I'd have to fully understand what the product does and I don't. My current understanding from reading the documentation is a FPGA that helps search through a database of the entire scene in memory to give hits on the shader triangles that get intersected by a Ray cast. A FPGA can be 100 times more efficient than a CPU and 10-20 time more efficient than a GPU for array (database) searches. OpenRL is the cross platform language to setup and use the ray tracing algorithum. Open RL relies on OpenCL and OpenGLES.

I can be totally wrong on this so I hope someone who is more knowledgeable steps up.

In computer graphics, ray tracing is a technique for generating an image by tracing the path of light through pixels in an image plane and simulating the effects of its encounters with virtual objects. The technique is capable of producing a very high degree of visual realism, usually higher than that of typical scanline rendering methods, but at a greater computational cost.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I think it's most likely going to be how he defines a GCN SP in his post. And my current guess would be the width like how Xenos was listed as having 48 ALUs, but because it was a 5-wide design it it had 240. However his choice of 192 for a GCN part seems weird to me and like he's using a method more suited for a VLIW design.

Not knowing what that poster means by a GCN SP leaves a huge hole in his information.

So you don't have a problem with anything in the Post?

The Jaguar SoC for both consoles will not be the same as the Jaguar SoC for consumers.

AMD Jaguar vs Sony/Microsoft Jaguar
H1 2013 vs H1 2014
LP-DDR3/DDR3 vs DDR4(estimated clock is 2133 MHz 10-10-10-20 1.2v)
HSA 3/4ths vs HSA Complete

Do you agree that the above is stating that the game SoC will be a 2014 full HSA design using DDR4 and released 1st quarter 2014. Both Xbox 720 and PS4 to use identical SoCs incorporating X86 jaguar CPUs with a AMD GPU 8000 series but we don't know the final # of CUs or SPs.

There is a disagreement over the # of Jaguar CPUs. I think sweetvar26 may be more accurate. Two packages of 4 Jaguar CPUs with 2 megs of cache in each package. That leaves 2 slots open in the typical 4 way cross bar switch for other CPU packages. <grin>

I guess we also now know that the next Xbox SoC project is called Kryptos and the PS4 Soc project is called Thebe. Kryptos, the sculpture at CIA Langly is the Howard Carter account of the King Tut discovery in Thebe's Egypt.

 

[bgassassin]

So you don't have a problem with anything in the Post?



Do you agree that the above is stating that the game SoC will be a 2014 full HSA design using DDR4 and released 1st quarter 2014. Both Xbox 720 and PS4 to use identical SoCs incorporating X86 jaguar CPUs with a AMD GPU 8000 series but we don't know the final # of CUs or SPs.

There is a disagreement over the # of Jaguar CPUs. I think sweetvar26 may be more accurate. Two packages of 4 Jaguar CPUs with 2 megs of cache in each package. That leaves 2 slots open in the typical 4 way cross bar switch for other CPU packages. <grin>

I guess we also now know that the next Xbox SoC project is called Kryptos and the PS4 Soc project is called Thebe. Kryptos, the sculpture at CIA Langly is the Howard Carter account of the King Tut discovery in Thebe's Egypt.

Oh I definitely have some problems with it.

The raytracer part definitely makes it tough to believe along with MS and Sony using the same SoC. I would have believed it more if that was only about PS4, but at the same time it suggests that Sony is using DDR4 which adds to the problems I have with it.

But entertaining the idea that they are using the same SOC would eliminate that as an issue. And I don't know if Sony decided on a split pool of memory to increase the amount in PS4 to justify what the person is saying about DDR4. Early on at least they seemed to be very focused on having a unified pool of high bandwidth memory.

Also the Forbes article said it was Thebes with an "s", so maybe Sweetvar just misspelled it because that's how you spell Thebes, Egypt.

Talk about adding to the validity of the notion, haha.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Oh I definitely have some problems with it.



But entertaining the idea that they are using the same SOC would eliminate that as an issue. And I don't know if Sony decided on a split pool of memory to increase the amount in PS4 to justify what the person is saying about DDR4. Early on at least they seemed to be very focused on having a unified pool of high bandwidth memory.

Also the Forbes article said it was Thebes with an "s", so maybe Sweetvar just misspelled it because that's how you spell Thebes, Egypt.

Talk about adding to the validity of the notion, haha.

I got a little thrill out of solving that puzzle. <grin> Do I get a prize or trophy for solving the puzzle? Ticket to CES 2013 and a look behind the curtains? Just like old times at the Atari ST booth..... I guess you and onQ123 deserve part of the credit.

DDR4 would be one pool of high bandwidth memory. GDDR5 assumes a second external GPU.

 

[phosphor112]

Why would they go with DDR4 next gen? It's still expensive, sure it's low power but isn't it still relatively slow?

EDIT: So.. it's going to have a ray tracer?

 

[deadlast]

Am I reading this right? Are the Xbox3 and PS4 are using the same architecture?

Come on Sony-Microsoft console merger.

 

[ekim]

That would be nice indeed. Devs can work literally on the metal with the jaguar architecture. Lots of SIMD registers. The major engines just have to optimize their rendering to use this advantage of a uniform architecture.

 

[AzaK]

At this rate I think they'll be the same box with different stickers.

Quick question. If say MS and SONY are working together to create consoles that match, could this be considered anti-competitive behaviour? I'm thinking not (They are really just standardising) but stranger things have happened.

 

[phosphor112]

At this rate I think they'll be the same box with different stickers.

Quick question. If say MS and SONY are working together to create consoles that match, could this be considered anti-competitive behaviour? I'm thinking not (They are really just standardising) but stranger things have happened.

I don't see them using the same tech. Sony is a hardware company, they can't compete with MS's services, especially in North America. They have to have a differentiating factor beyond free online and exclusive.

 

[CLEEK]

Them both using the same SoC isn't even a rumour at this point, just a deduction based on various other unsubstantiated rumours.

But if both consoles were based around the same SoC, there could still be notable differences between them. BC hardware, additional processors, differences in memory, differences in storage, even additional CPU / GPU for non-gaming purposes. But the core gaming metal could be the same.

Having the same SoC just reduces the R&D cost for MS and Sony, and would certainly make life much easier for multi-platform devs.

 

[CLEEK]

they can't compete with MS's services, especially in North America.

On the same note, MS seem unable (or unwilling) to compete with Sony in non-gaming services outside of the US.

For non-gaming applications, being an American based 360 owner is an entirely different proposition to owning an 360 elsewhere. With Sony, not so much.

 

[mrklaw]

On the same note, MS seem unable (or unwilling) to compete with Sony in non-gaming services outside of the US.

For non-gaming applications, being an American based 360 owner is an entirely different proposition to owning an 360 elsewhere. With Sony, not so much.

TBH,both of them have middling music and TV/video stores, and Sony has streaming with unlimited. Other than that,nthey both leverage the same series of horizontal services that everyone does including smart TV manufacturers - Netflix, Hulu etc. I don't see one clear winner here.

For online gaming MS is clearly better, but you pay for it, and there isn't anything so groundbreaking that Sony couldn't easily copy it next gen

Main thing will be inertia, with those already invested in digital content and friends lists simply more likely to stay where they are

 

[Graphics Horse]

Also the Forbes article said it was Thebes with an "s", so maybe Sweetvar just misspelled it because that's how you spell Thebes, Egypt.

Callisto, Themisto and Thebe are all moons of Jupiter/ Women related to Zeus mythology, so I will give Sweetvar the benefit of the doubt.

Jupiter is one planet closer to Earth than Saturn, Saturn was a console from Sega. Sony and Sega teaming up to bring us the true succesor of the Saturn??

 

[endresults]

Callisto, Themisto and Thebe are all moons of Jupiter/ Women related to Zeus mythology, so I will give Sweetvar the benefit of the doubt.

Jupiter is one planet closer to Earth than Saturn, Saturn was a console from Sega. Sony and Sega teaming up to bring us the true succesor of the Saturn??

Jupiter orbits a full 360 degrees around the Sun as well. Something big is happening, folks.

 

[McHuj]

Callisto, Themisto and Thebe are all moons of Jupiter/ Women related to Zeus mythology, so I will give Sweetvar the benefit of the doubt.

Jupiter is one planet closer to Earth than Saturn, Saturn was a console from Sega. Sony and Sega teaming up to bring us the true succesor of the Saturn??

awesome.

launching on 13/13/13

 

[specialguy]

Bg you seem to be losing focus and getting sidetracked easily lately...

It seems if any rumor uses certain codenames you automatically ascribe it credibility.

 

[bgassassin]

I got a little thrill out of solving that puzzle. <grin> Do I get a prize or trophy for solving the puzzle? Ticket to CES 2013 and a look behind the curtains? Just like old times at the Atari ST booth..... I guess you and onQ123 deserve part of the credit.

DDR4 would be one pool of high bandwidth memory. GDDR5 assumes a second external GPU.

Well I never even bothered looking up Kryptos. Also interesting is that there is a Thebes in Greece and looking closer at Kryptos it supposedly means "hidden" in Greek.

Callisto, Themisto and Thebe are all moons of Jupiter/ Women related to Zeus mythology, so I will give Sweetvar the benefit of the doubt.

Jupiter is one planet closer to Earth than Saturn, Saturn was a console from Sega. Sony and Sega teaming up to bring us the true succesor of the Saturn??

LOL. I had looked at Thebe, but with the Kryptos info it doesn't work for relating both Sony and MS to having the same SOC.

Bg you seem to be losing focus and getting sidetracked easily lately...

It seems if any rumor uses certain codenames you automatically ascribe it credibility.

Just for the sake of fun, discussion, and speculation, someone on IGN posed the following in response to that article.



Coincidentally that post on EVGA did say both were using the same SOC.

I haven't lost focus.

 

[LastNac]

Whatever happened to the Xbox being x6 and the Playstation being x10 what we now have respectively?

 

[phosphor112]

On the same note, MS seem unable (or unwilling) to compete with Sony in non-gaming services outside of the US.

For non-gaming applications, being an American based 360 owner is an entirely different proposition to owning an 360 elsewhere. With Sony, not so much.

Oh, don't get me wrong, MS has TRASH services for Europe, that's why their absence at Gamescom is absolutely laughable. The thing is, in order to be successful they must generate a rapport. Their rapport overseas is GENERALLY solid, but having a "global"view of dominance. Next gen, PSN will at least be on par with XBL now, but for free. Even if they surpass MS, they must give MORE of a reason for Xbox owners to drop franchises like Halo and Activisions preference of the 360 over PS3. Software is one, service is another, and hardware... is the last part. This isn't just about giving the fanboys what they want, but giving the masses more incentive to choose one over the other.

 

[iceatcs]

Very interesting, if both systems are pretty much of same.
Market been there before, like the current of smartphone war.

 

[specialguy]

Next gen, PSN will at least be on par with XBL now, but for free.

I doubt it. I just dont think Japanese companies understand the space as well as a Apple or MS.

Plus I'm sure their focus will be getting more and more people to PAY, with rolling more services behind PS+. I wouldn't expect them to focus much resources on improving the free service.

 

[Glorified G]

If the consoles came to be nearly identical I'd be kinda disappointed.

I would be really glad tbh. That would mean identical 3rd party games.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

Wow so both consoles are going to be practically the same? Same CPU and same GPU. If the memory rumors are still true, then we may have one with a lot more memory and the other with a lot more bandwidth, but that may have changed as well.

If the consoles came to be nearly identical I'd be kinda disappointed.

It's going to be the most boring generation ever.

But, these are still rumors. E3 2013 is what im waiting for.

 

[phosphor112]

I doubt it. I just dont think Japanese companies understand the space as well as a Apple or MS.

Plus I'm sure their focus will be getting more and more people to PAY, with rolling more services behind PS+. I wouldn't expect them to focus much resources on improving the free service.

It's nearly on par now, there are only a few features missing, but those are limited by the memory of the current console.

 

[SwimmingwithChickenz]

I've been out of the loop lately. Bgassassin, you have a source on the inside that is working on the Durango (next xbox)? Do I have this right? May I ask what this person has told you? Can you friend on the inside confirm any of these rumors as authentic?

 

[DemonCleaner]

realtime ray tracing? wohooo!


....


..


won't be happening :/

 

[Canis lupus]

realtime ray tracing? wohooo!


....


..


won't be happening :/

PS3 could do it. Just don't expect the games to be ray tracing. We need another 8 to 10 gpu generations before it becomes the norm.

 

[Canis lupus]

Caustics created a Ray-Tracing co-processor Imgtec bought the company & plan to get the ray-tracing chip into systems as a co-processor & then as part of their GPGPU & they are supposed to be showing off their GPGPU at Siggraph this year.

Thanks for that onQ.

 

[dragonelite]

PS3 could do it. Just don't expect the games to be ray tracing. We need another 8 to 10 gpu generations before it becomes the norm.

Don't know do we have numbers on those Ray tracing units.

 

[DemonCleaner]

PS3 could do it. Just don't expect the games to be ray tracing. We need another 8 to 10 gpu generations before it becomes the norm.

well that's what they said 15 years ago.

 

[SirIgbyCeaser]

I hope that co-processor can also do other stuff, being a ray tracing chip seems like an expensive proposition. Reminds me of the physics X pci-e cards that were out there trying to make it on the desktop market.

 

[MutantCamel]

Definitely no way I'm buying the two of them again next gen... I'll have to wait one or 2 years to see what exclusive games appeal more to me.

 

[onQ123]

I hope that co-processor can also do other stuff, being a ray tracing chip seems like an expensive proposition. Reminds me of the physics X pci-e cards that were out there trying to make it on the desktop market.

& just like the physics chip it's going to make it's way into the GPU in fact that's whats happening now.

 

[H_Prestige]

I would be really glad tbh. That would mean identical 3rd party games.

What would the fanboys fight about then?

 

[Triple U]

That would be nice indeed. Devs can work literally on the metal with the jaguar architecture. Lots of SIMD registers. The major engines just have to optimize their rendering to use this advantage of a uniform architecture.

Devs, outside of a few first party, weren't really to willing to go out of their way to do much more on the metal than was absolutely necessary this gen. Im not sold on Jaguar actually going in the consoles anyway.

 

[deadlast]

What would the fanboys fight about then?

We'd still have Nintedo and PC Fanboys that would hate on both systems and say how they are a waste of money because XB3/PS4 doesn't have some feature. And the Sony/MS fanboys could do some Apple vs Orange comparisons over first part titles and exclusives.

See plenty of stuff to keep those people busy.

 

[phosphor112]

Someone pointed out in the Oculus Rift thread (VR kickstarter thread) that a lot of people part of the Oculus group are from Gaikai. The company Sony acquired recently.

PS4 with native Oculus support? Or Sony going to invest with such a device or integrate it with their VR (HMZ) line?