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[TheOddOne]

Also, your wife is killed by bear.

Wat.

Wat.

WAT.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Shakespeare is amongst us.

 

[Zoe]

How you can even patent something like that is mindboggling.

Technology patents suck.

 

[tzare]

I'm sure they will be able to keep piracy out for a good amount of time. You had to invest quite some effort with the later PSPs and the pandora battery thing.

And why is piracy mentioned as the PSP killer? DS, buy a special microflash adapter and boom, play all games. So much more easy yet nobody complained like they did with the PSP.

well, it has been one of the system's problem since fw 1.5, they need to make it profitable from the software side , and some games will be expensive to make, so they will need to sell well. Piracy is also an issue on iOS and android and low budgets probably makes those games profitable. That will not be the case for many psp2 games.

iwasreadingthisandithoughttomyselfwhatthehellareyousaying?

my bad english, plus being at work didn't help me at all posting

 

[Spiegel]

Motorstorm Apocalypse developer Evolution Studios says that Sony's worldwide network of developers got exactly what they requested in the NGP

"We’ve all been looking at odd-looking devices with wires sticking out them since an early date, because with the commencement of research on NGP, Sony really changed its approach so that it was much more developer-driven," Evolution Studios director Matt Southern told NowGamer.

Instead of Sony handing hardware to developers and saying, ‘here’s our next device, make something cool’, it set about asking developers what they thought should go into the device, and what they thought would be cool,"

"Literally saying, ‘we’re thinking of a rear touch pad, what could you do with that?’ BigBig came up with Little Deviants, which I think is going to be one of the killer apps," said Southern. "So it’s almost kind of weird to be asked what I think of it because I told Sony what I think of it and, as a result, that’s reflected in the hardware. That’s happened right across, Japan, Asia, Europe and America, so in terms of first-party development it’s the machine we all wanted, and I think that’s starting to show in the games.

http://www.nowgamer.com/news/5206/sony-devs-ngp-is-the-machine-we-all-wanted

 

[IonicSnake]

I really hope Sony have this mentality when they make the PS4.

 

[ZoddGutts]

I really hope Sony have this mentality when they make the PS4.

With ken kutaragi long gone, I'm sure they will. They already did with the NGB.

 

[StealthGoblin]

With ken kutaragi long gone, I'm sure they will. They already did with the NGB.

Kutaragi being gone is a blessing and a curse. It'll be easier to develop for, but I doubt it will be as future proof as the PS3 is. He really did design a monster.

 

[szaromir]

Kutaragi being gone is a blessing and a curse. It'll be easier to develop for, but I doubt it will be as future proof as the PS3 is. He really did design a monster.

Yeah because 360 is any less future proof. Hardware should be designed around launch day usage, not some magical potential that might or might not be used later down the road.

 

[brain_stew]

well, it has been one of the system's problem since fw 1.5, they need to make it profitable from the software side , and some games will be expensive to make, so they will need to sell well. Piracy is also an issue on iOS and android and low budgets probably makes those games profitable. That will not be the case for many psp2 games.



my bad english, plus being at work didn't help me at all posting

Security on the original PSP was a complete afterthought. Firmware 1.0 units had, quite literally, zero protection against running unsigned code, it just had to be in the correct file format and it would run without issue. There wasn't ever any need to "hack" anything.

Retrofitting security and anti-piracy measures is an impossible uphill battle, we'll never get that same scenario again.

 

[H_Prestige]

I really hope Sony have this mentality when they make the PS4.

Agreed. Just make sure that PS4 can play all PS3 titles and I couldn't care less what is inside it. NGP having PSP BC is a good sign as I was positive Sony wouldn't have bothered. They could have easily gotten away with not having it.

 

[J-Rzez]

Yeah because 360 is any less future proof. Hardware should be designed around launch day usage, not some magical potential that might or might not be used later down the road.

I think you miss the point why some people are attached to Sony's products that they are built like this, how the games continually jump in quality as the life goes on (shocking i know, but their games do advance more than others as time goes on). The 360 is less future proof as the PS3 exclusives have shown, and like it or not as was discussed numerous times already, all the little things add up, but we'll get some new hardware before I think the 360's life is used up totally anyways.

Some people really like that Sony products are overbuilt in various ways like this.

 

[H_Prestige]

I think you miss the point why some people are attached to Sony's products that they are built like this, how the games continually jump in quality as the life goes on (shocking i know, but their games do advance more than others as time goes on). The 360 is less future proof as the PS3 exclusives have shown, and like it or not as was discussed numerous times already, all the little things add up, but we'll get some new hardware before I think the 360's life is used up totally anyways.

Some people really like that Sony products are overbuilt in various ways like this.

So you think NGP is bad hardware design?

 

[Gorgon]

Kutaragi being gone is a blessing and a curse. It'll be easier to develop for, but I doubt it will be as future proof as the PS3 is. He really did design a monster.

Not really. The difference between a PS3 and a 360 is nowhere as substantial as was the difference between a PS2 and a Xbox1. A true jump would have been a PS3 with 1GB of shared memory (e.g. using a pool of GDDR instead of a separated and more expensive XBR/GDDR comb) and at at least a GPU as good as the 360. The Cell certainly helps in this last department and we can certainly see a good graphic evolution on the PS3 relative to the 360 but much of that has to be conceded to Sony Studios' magic. MS simply has nothing in the same league as Sony's software engineers and game devs. Their role simply can't be ignored regarding their products.

So yes, I'm quite happy Kutagari is out of the picture.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Yeah because 360 is any less future proof. Hardware should be designed around launch day usage, not some magical potential that might or might not be used later down the road.

Well the PS3 is doing steroscopic 3D gaming, 3D blu-rays etc. Its not just about 'teh graphics', although Sony's 1st party offerings are the best in those categories too. I'm sure Kutaragi was aware that 3D was coming down the line and planned accordingly.

 

[TheExecutive]

Not really. The difference between a PS3 and a 360 is nowhere as substantial as was the difference between a PS2 and a Xbox1. A true jump would have been a PS3 with 1GB of shared memory (e.g. using a pool of GDDR instead of a separated and more expensive XBR/GDDR comb) and at at least a GPU as good as the 360. The Cell certainly helps in this last department and we can certainly see a good graphic evolution on the PS3 relative to the 360 but much of that has to be conceded to Sony Studios' magic. MS simply has nothing in the same league as Sony's software engineers and game devs. Their role simply can't be ignored regarding their products.

So yes, I'm quite happy Kutagari is out of the picture.

Yeah, he was paramount in moulding the industry but his time has gone.

 

[somuchwater]

Yeah because 360 is any less future proof. Hardware should be designed around launch day usage, not some magical potential that might or might not be used later down the road.

That seems like an exaggeration. The key is designing hardware that finds a balance between the initial costs and the longevity of that device. Because game consoles are the basis on an ongoing ecosystem, you have to ensure that there is some untapped potential at launch so that your competitors don't catch you flat-footed 2 years later.

 

[H_Prestige]

That seems like an exaggeration. The key is designing hardware that finds a balance between the initial costs and the longevity of that device. Because game consoles are the basis on an ongoing ecosystem, you have to ensure that there is some untapped potential at launch so that your competitors don't catch you flat-footed 2 years later.

The only thing lacking in the 360 is a blu ray drive. It's CPU/GPU are just as "future proof" as the ps3. Actually superior overall since there are fewer bottlenecks compared to the ps3.

 

[somuchwater]

The only thing lacking in the 360 is a blu ray drive. It's CPU/GPU are just as "future proof" as the ps3. Actually superior overall since there are fewer bottlenecks compared to the ps3.

Think you misread something. I totally agree with that. That was my point, right? MS and Sony both built boxes that were deliberately well beyond their launch day potential, and (very generally speaking) that's a good thing for both gamers and the companies.

 

[szaromir]

I think you miss the point why some people are attached to Sony's products that they are built like this, how the games continually jump in quality as the life goes on (shocking i know, but their games do advance more than others as time goes on). The 360 is less future proof as the PS3 exclusives have shown, and like it or not as was discussed numerous times already, all the little things add up, but we'll get some new hardware before I think the 360's life is used up totally anyways.

Some people really like that Sony products are overbuilt in various ways like this.

In terms of performance PS3 wasn't futureproof, it's totally obsolete nowadays with PC being 10+ times more powerful. PS3's performance edge over 360 is totally meaningless in today's marketplace and doesn't reflect anything in terms of sales, 3rd party support etc. Kutaragi totally botched PS3 hardware design, the company lost billions of dollars and marketshare and the board did right to "let" Kutaragi retire.

 

[charlequin]

In terms of performance PS3 wasn't futureproof, it's totally obsolete nowadays with PC being 10+ times more powerful. PS3's performance edge over 360 is totally meaningless in today's marketplace and doesn't reflect anything in terms of sales, 3rd party support etc. Kutaragi totally botched PS3 hardware design, the company lost billions of dollars and marketshare and the board did right to "let" Kutaragi retire.

Pretty much. In terms of "future-proof" features, the PS3 had BluRay discs (a visionary feature, but one that proved to be disastrous for Sony financially even if you assume the PS3 singlehandedly won the movie format war) and a variety of tech standards (stuff that Microsoft has had to play catchup on like HDMI, certainly, but nothing that remains a major competitive edge today.) Its graphics power ultimately maintained a significant edge over 360 in exclusive titles because of the Cell, but that advantage is mitigated somewhat by the RSX and RAM structure, and regardless the PS3 is still way below modern PC games.

I think you miss the point why some people are attached to Sony's products that they are built like this, how the games continually jump in quality as the life goes on

I certainly understand that some people have an irrational attachment to systems that are gimped at release by unfriendly hardware design, but that's really not a good thing. If anything, the NGP exposes how flawed Kutaragi's hardware design philosophy really was -- this approach produces a system that's cheaper to build and easier to develop for without sacrificing any power.

 

[gofreak]

I think there's something to be said for 'small' decisions like using the version of HDMI they did, putting it in every box, making sure there was a lot of internal IO bandwidth (I mean for peripherals) etc. Little decisions that might have been lost on another team.

Like it proved 'lucky', to have used that HDMI version and to have it in every system - it let them add 3D capability to every box years down the road. If MS had with 360 had taken a similar 'overkill' approach to IO they could have done more with Kinect. Seemingly small things that can help you continue to evolve a fixed platform down the road...I think Kutaragi was good at these things.

Of course, it doesn't mean the new team isn't good at these things. But I do worry they may be slipping back on some of Krazy Ken's perspectives on things like region-freeness and non-proprietary storage etc.

 

[szaromir]

I think there's something to be said for 'small' decisions like using the version of HDMI they did, putting it in every box, making sure there was a lot of internal IO bandwidth (I mean for peripherals) etc. Little decisions that might have been lost on another team.

Like it proved 'lucky', to have used that HDMI version and to have it in every system - it let them add 3D capability to every box years down the road. If MS had with 360 had taken a similar 'overkill' approach to IO they could have done more with Kinect. Seemingly small things that can help you continue to evolve a fixed platform down the road...I think Kutaragi was good at these things.

Of course, it doesn't mean the new team isn't good at these things. But I do worry they may be slipping back on some of Krazy Ken's perspectives on things like region-freeness and non-proprietary storage etc.

The HDMI doesn't ultimately matter outside of 3D movie playback maybe. The PS3 is suboptimal for proper 3D anyway - the games are rendered at a very low resolution (Killzone 3) or have terrible performance in the 3D mode (GT5). 3D mode so far is only a bullet point on tthe rather than actual feature essential to the console - it requires much higher performance overhead than PS3 has.

 

[gofreak]

The HDMI doesn't ultimately matter outside of 3D movie playback maybe. The PS3 is suboptimal for proper 3D anyway - the games are rendered at a very low resolution (Killzone 3) or have terrible performance in the 3D mode (GT5). 3D mode so far is only a bullet point on tthe rather than actual feature essential to the console - it requires much higher performance overhead than PS3 has.

I don't mean to comment on the meaningfulness of these things on the market. Just from an engineer-y perspective, it is 'neat' that seemingly small decisions at one point can yield bigger repercussions down the road. I think he, Kutaragi, was good at seeing things (potentially) coming down the road. If they'd built the machine very pragmatically for 2006's concerns only - it might have been a lot cheaper, but just from a machine and techie POV, there probably wouldn't have been the same level of after-the-fact upgrade to the platform. I just hope Sony isn't too led by the concerns of developers at a given point in time, not exclusively... I hope there's at least a little room for gambling on future potential, at least where it isn't too expensive. I guess something like the rear touchpad on the PSP2 is a bit more of a gamble on future potential rather than something devs cried out for, though, so perhaps there's still an element of that there.

 

[szaromir]

It might be 'neat' but ultimately more harmful than helpful. As for the rear touchpad, it's a new input control and you'd expect it to have some immediate use in games even if no one cried for it - just like no one cried for waggle, dual screens or double cameras for enhanced reality games. It's completely different from a)putting alien archicture for "potential", b) putting in very expensive features that might or might not be beneficiary for the platform three years from its launch.

 

[J-Rzez]

So you think NGP is bad hardware design?

I certainly understand that some people have an irrational attachment to systems that are gimped at release by unfriendly hardware design, but that's really not a good thing. If anything, the NGP exposes how flawed Kutaragi's hardware design philosophy really was -- this approach produces a system that's cheaper to build and easier to develop for without sacrificing any power.

Well yes, in one regard I'm a little disappointed that there's no crazy out of this world stuff done with the NGP, but then again the PSP wasn't all that nuts either. But at least it's "future proof" still because how overbuilt it is.

I know it's wrong to say, but it is "just a portable" to me, which I enjoy, but for my grand gaming experience it's all PC/Home Consoles. This is a guilty side pleasure, and I enjoy the other media features sometimes as much as the games on the PSP and I'm sure the NGP will be the same. I've come to realize that even if the PS3 doesn't come with some crazy hardware design, yet is grossly overbuilt to last the times, I'd kinda be ok with that as well. While I love the hardware, I enjoy their exclusives more-so.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Firelight Technologies announces its support for the next generation portable entertainment system from Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.

NGP has a separate audio or 'media' chip?

Good find, sounds like some PSP hardware is in there after all. And being accessable in NGP games means they can't remove it at a later date, yay!

Interesting. It's certainly possible, although I might have thought that if they were going to include any hardware from PSP, it'd be stuff relating to the GPU perhaps rather than the Media Engine block.

Or maybe it's a new version of that media engine or something.

Running PSP games supposedly gives improved visuals of some undisclosed nature, so they'll be using the NGP's GPU if true.

 

[Baki]

I wonder if NGP will be released in the west this year?

 

[H_Prestige]

Good find, sounds like some PSP hardware is in there after all. And being accessable in NGP games means they can't remove it at a later date, yay!




Running PSP games supposedly gives improved visuals of some undisclosed nature, so they'll be using the NGP's GPU if true.

Where does it say anything about PSP hardware?

 

[FoxSpirit]

Well yes, in one regard I'm a little disappointed that there's no crazy out of this world stuff done with the NGP, but then again the PSP wasn't all that nuts either. But at least it's "future proof" still because how overbuilt it is.

Well, look at the GameCube. That one was actually very developer friendly and still there were some devs who pulled out stuff way above other devs at the time.
Btw, the improvement of PSP visuals may simply be a "be gone dithered transparency". Which would already be awesome.

Never had a PSP2 but the NGP will so be mine. I hope they put up a lot of stuff on PSN for download from the old library.

 

[Baki]

Where does it say anything about PSP hardware?

He's assuming.

 

[Lonely1]

Wired on: Why the iPad is so "cheap" and none can touch it's price.

Motorola’s Xoom tablet is debuting in the United States with an $800 price tag. (To be fair, the most comparable iPad is $730 — but there’s no $500 Xoom planned, and the lack of a low-end entry point will hurt Motorola.) Samsung’s Galaxy Tab, with a relatively puny 7-inch screen, costs $600 without a contract.

Why is it so hard to get to a lower starting price? And how was Apple able to get there?

Jason Hiner of Tech Republic suggests it largely has to do with Apple’s retail strategy. Apple now has 300 retail stores worldwide selling iPads directly to customers. That’s advantageous, because if the iPad were primarily sold at third-party retail stores, a big chunk of profit would go to those retailers, Hiner reasons.

“The company can swallow the bitter pill of hardly making any money from iPad sales through its retail partners because it can feast off the fat profits it makes when customers buy directly through its retail outlets and the web store,” Hiner says. “However, companies like Motorola, HP, and Samsung have to make all of their profit by selling their tablets wholesale to retailer partners.”

At the end of the day, the iPad might be worth well above $500 for all we know. (Part estimates made by component analysts such as iSuppli aren’t very useful because they fail to measure costs of R&D and other factors.) It’s most likely that Apple can afford to absorb the costs of producing and selling the iPad because of the tenacious ecosystem backing it, and also because it has such tight oversight over every aspect of the company to control price.

That’s what it all boils down to: ecosystems and control. Competitors are struggling to match the $500 price point because they aren’t as fully integrated as Apple, in terms of retail strategy, a digital content market, hardware and software engineering — everything.

full article.

So, on the NGP price...

 

[brain_stew]

Wired on: Why the iPad is so "cheap" and none can touch it's price.



So, on the NGP price...

Its not relevant to the videogame market where there's never been worthwile profit margins on hardware at retail. If the NGP was DD only like the PSP Go then there'd be a point to make but its not and retailers will make their money from high margin software sales.

 

[Baki]

Its not relevant to the videogame market where there's never been worthwile profit margins on hardware at retail. If the NGP was DD only like the PSP Go then there'd be a point to make but its not and retailers will make their money from high margin software sales.

Pretty much this. But that was a very informative article.

 

[Lonely1]

Its not relevant to the videogame market where there's never been worthwile profit margins on hardware at retail. If the NGP was DD only like the PSP Go then there'd be a point to make but its not and retailers will make their money from high margin software sales.

But we are also talking about $700 devices. Not $200ishs. If its relative easy to build a quadcore tablet for $200ish. (And sell for, lets say, $400-$500). None is doing it. It's my whole point.

 

[Mrbob]

There have been what, 17 million ipads sold so far? That wired article is rubbish. All it seems to be is a front for pimping the Apple store. Brian X Chen should be embarrassed for writing that as a news story.

You don't sell 17 million ipads off of 300 retail stores. Doesn't the ipad have similar components to the iphone 4? Add a bigger screen boom you are done and selling a device for a profit at 500 dollars. Apple sure would love people to think the ipad is being sold as a loss leader at 500 bucks. At the very least the article does mention the app store at the end. This is the main reason Apple can take less profits (they are not taking a loss) on the hardware.

Not sure what this has to do with the price of the PSP2. They are two completely different devices and don't forget Sony also has the capability of getting cheap manufacturing deals. Whether making it themselves or with a 3rd party. I expect PSP2 to be sold as a loss initially in the USA ($299) but then sold at a profit within 6 months of release. In Japan and Europe the device will be sold at profit on day one. Nintendo has always sold their hardware devices at a profit. Apple isn't the only one with the magic formula. For from it.

 

[Baki]

But we are also talking about $700 devices. Not $200ishs. If its relative easy to build a quadcore tablet for $200ish. (And sell for, lets say, $400-$500). None is doing it. It's my whole point.

I guess the difference is that after the massive retail mark-up, the tablet makers also like to take a large cut as well. This is because the rely solely on hardware revenue to profit from these ventures. They don't just want to profit, they want to profit substantially.

 

[Lonely1]

There have been what, 17 million ipads sold so far? That wired article is rubbish. All it seems to be is a front for pimping the Apple store. Brian X Chen should be embarrassed for writing that as a news story.

You don't sell 17 million ipads off of 300 retail stores. Doesn't the ipad have similar components to the iphone 4? Add a bigger screen boom you are done and selling a device for a profit at 500 dollars. Apple sure would love people to think the ipad is being sold as a loss leader at 500 bucks. At the very least the article does mention the app store at the end. This is the main reason Apple can take less profits (they are not taking a loss) on the hardware.

Not sure what this has to do with the price of the PSP2. They are two completely different devices and don't forget Sony also has the capability of getting cheap manufacturing deals. Whether making it themselves or with a 3rd party. I expect PSP2 to be sold as a loss initially in the USA ($299) but then sold at a profit within 6 months of release. In Japan and Europe the device will be sold at profit on day one. Nintendo has always sold their hardware devices at a profit. Apple isn't the only one with the magic formula. For from it.

If you are kidding yourself if you contend that Samsung, HP and Apple doens't have as good (or better) manufacturing infrastructure than SCEA.

 

[Yoboman]

If you are kidding yourself if you contend that Samsung, HP and Apple doens't have as good (or better) manufacturing infrastructure than SCEA.

What makes you assume they do?

 

[Durante]

What makes you assume they do?

I don't know about HP and Apple, but Samsung builds everything.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

If you are kidding yourself if you contend that Samsung, HP and Apple doens't have as good (or better) manufacturing infrastructure than SCEA.

Surely they would all be about the same. I would say Samsung and Sony are better off because they can go in house for a lot where Apple and HP would have to go to Foxconn for assembly and many external suppliers for most of the internals.

Sony specifically make mobile displays (though the 5" OLED has yet to be identified I would be surprised if it isn't from Sony Mobile Display), have a semi-conductor division (which is 40/45nm ready going by PS3 production) and assembly plants, all of which could be used to make NGP at a lower cost.

 

[charlequin]

But we are also talking about $700 devices. Not $200ishs. If its relative easy to build a quadcore tablet for $200ish. (And sell for, lets say, $400-$500). None is doing it. It's my whole point.

You don't have a point. Your article is talking about something entirely unrelated to the NGP price. Retailers are going to sell the NGP at zero margin.

 

[Hazelhurst]

Well yes, in one regard I'm a little disappointed that there's no crazy out of this world stuff done with the NGP, but then again the PSP wasn't all that nuts either.

I disagree. OLED is out of this world. I still can't believe that tech, size, and resolution will be in this device. I assumed they were going to cut corners and go LCD again.

 

[H_Prestige]

I disagree. OLED is out of this world. I still can't believe that tech, size, and resolution will be in this device. I assumed they were going to cut corners and go LCD again.

OLED is in plenty of mobile devices since last year. Don't let Apple or Nintendo's insistence on using crappy LCD skew the reality.

 

[Lonely1]

You don't have a point. Your article is talking about something entirely unrelated to the NGP price.

Why exactly is "totally unrelated"? Aren't the NGP hardware off the shelves parts that many of these devices also uses? What sets them apart, the OS? (I know, the business model, but that's suggesting that Sony will take a very small margin or a loss on the NGP). Again points, if it only takes $200ish to build a NGP, a 5'' tablet with better specs and more parts than any other device on the market and Custom OS, then why everything else is so expensive?

People here argue that "the iPhone 4 is only $200 to build! So the NGP can't be much more!". Then how does my article doesn't apply to that argument?

 

[Dreamwriter]

OLED is in plenty of mobile devices since last year. Don't let Apple or Nintendo's insistence on using crappy LCD skew the reality.

Now now, let's not get system bias get into your view. I don't know *anybody* who would consider the iPhone 4 screen "crappy". And the iPad screen is using the same tech as many high-end HDTV's. And the 3DS screen of course all new technology, relatively speaking.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I disagree. OLED is out of this world. I still can't believe that tech, size, and resolution will be in this device. I assumed they were going to cut corners and go LCD again.

Not really. OLED as a technology is maturing at a brisk pace, if we were having this discussion just 2 years ago (5", 960x544) I would agree with you.

If I were Sony I would make a Wi-fi, S-LCD version to undercut the 3DS and blindside Nintendo, but maybe running two actually different product lines is infeasible.

 

[H_Prestige]

Now now, let's not get system bias get into your view. I don't know *anybody* who would consider the iPhone 4 screen "crappy". And the iPad screen is using the same tech as many high-end HDTV's. And the 3DS screen of course is bleeding edge.

I'm sure they're all good by LCD standards (though I'm not sure what's so special about the 3DS screen other than 3D), but OLED kicks the shit out of all of them. That is if you value picture quality.

 

[H_Prestige]

Why exactly is "totally unrelated"? Aren't the NGP hardware off the shelves parts that many of these devices also uses? What sets them apart, the OS? (I know, the business model, but that's suggesting that Sony will take a very small margin or a loss on the NGP). Again points, if it only takes $200ish to build a NGP, a 5'' tablet with better specs and more parts than any other device on the market and Custom OS, then why everything else is so expensive?

People here argue that "the iPhone 4 is only $200 to build! So the NGP can't be much more!". Then how does my article doesn't apply to that argument?

And they will. Why would you expect otherwise?

 

[Durante]

Clearly the margins need to be higher on tablets, but the article is talking about $500 being "too cheap" for devices that are significantly less advanced than NGP.