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[Ishida]

So Phantom becomes crazy? He convinces himself to be BB? Maybe he do so to cope with the pain (phantom pain!) of what he did...

Or he continues to be BB double as a "job", so that Outer Heaven gets founded but the real BB is safe, knowing that if the place gets overrunned (like the mother base in GZ) he is still safe, somewhere drinking a martini

The phantom realizes he is a fake, and keeps rolling with it.

 

[thabtoUK]

But the scroll bar would still be in order wouldn't it?

EDIT: Answered, but put more eloquently in Easy_D's post lower down ;-)

 

[Krabboss]

Because it's a game, it's scientifically proven that a clone would look, talk and have the same behaviour as the original model from which they made a clone.

They are clones of the same person.

Kojima isn't a scientist and isn't capable of adhering to reality. Solid and Liquid were not perfect clones. Solidus was, but he still didn't call himself Big Boss until the Big Shell incident and even then nobody believed him.

Their voice and appearance doesn't even matter. The US military or whoever knew that Solid and Liquid weren't Big Boss. Only 4 people knew that Venom Snake was not Big Boss and they seemingly did not share this information.

The Medic, after the events of GZ, is a Big Boss. There's two now. Who the real one is doesn't matter to the people of that universe because they are never in the same "room" together.

Solid Snake defeated Big Boss during the events of Metal Gear. He also defeated Big Boss during the events of Metal Gear 2. Those Big Bosses were two different people.

 

[Easy_D]

Also

I can explain this. It loads new lines as you listen through the tape. The first shot shows the conversation as the tape is playing, hence the timer. As it hasn't gotten much further and loaded more text, the slider is near the bottom.

However the second shot is taken after the entire conversation is done, all the text is loaded, hence the timer missing and the slider being further up.

 

[Ishida]

Not really, he still has the memories, the intentions, the abilities and everything else.

He's not Naked Snake, but he is Big Boss.



There's a difference between believeing you're the Pope and having his memories, his friends, his face, his voice, his influence, sleeping on his bed, wearing his clothes and etc, and no one else claiming otherwise.

Venom is not a cosplayer, he's "a Big Boss".

Except he is not. He doesn't have all of Big Boss' memories, he was just lead to believe he was. He eventually realizes he is a fake. He knows there's a real Big Boss out there.

 

[Gbraga]

He's a Big Boss impostor, yeah. The real Big Boss is hiding.



I understand that, but I don't agree.

As far as I'm concerned, one person is the official president, one that was elected and was given the title. And the other one is an entirely different person who is impersonating the real one.

But he isn't impersonating anyone. He is that person, he has his memories, he thinks like he would, for all intents and purposes, he is Big Boss. It's not about pretending to be someone else, it's about being someone else. If he was just impersonating Big Boss, then the whole "having your identity stolen from you" theme that connects Venom and Skullface would make no sense at all.

Except he is not. He doesn't have all of Big Boss' memories, he was just lead to believe he was. He eventually realizes he is a fake. He knows there's a real Big Boss out there.

Oh, really? I missed that then, sorry.

Still, I think it would be easier to understand his point if you think of Big Boss as "the legend", instead of "the person".

 

[vano89]

The phantom realizes he is a fake, and keeps rolling with it.

Eeeewwww I truly hope it's not so simple... sounds really stupid this way!

 

[Ishida]

But he isn't impersonating anyone. He is that person, he has his memories, he thinks like he would, for all intents and purposes, he is Big Boss. It's not about pretending to be someone else, it's about being someone else. If he was just impersonating Big Boss, then the whole "having your identity stolen from you" theme that connects Venom and Skullface would make no sense at all.

He IS impersonating him. Venom does not have the memories, or the life experiences that the real Big Boss had. This is a guy who woke up with a different face and was led to believe he used to be some legendary commander. He was not. He was only used as a decoy, a body double.

Eeeewwww I truly hope it's not so simple... sounds really stupid this way!

Unfortunately it is that simple. Venom truly believes to be Big Boss, but then the truth is revealed to him and he just keeps rolling.

 

[AAMARMO]

Early look at Rise of the Tomb Raider source from /mgg/

 

[Gbraga]

Eeeewwww I truly hope it's not so simple... sounds really stupid this way!

Yeah, I was assuming it would be something like he finds out the truth, but just doesn't know how to deal with it, because being Big Boss is all he knows now, he can't just go back to a life he doesn't even remember, even if he hates what was done to him, he can only keep being what he was now.

 

[Venom Fox]

EDIT: Answered, but put more eloquently in Easy_D's post lower down ;-)

Thanks, I see it now

Kojima isn't a scientist and isn't capable of adhering to reality. Solid and Liquid were not perfect clones. Solidus was, but he still didn't call himself Big Boss until the Big Shell incident and even then nobody believed him.

Their voice and appearance doesn't even matter. The US military or whoever knew that Solid and Liquid weren't Big Boss. Only 4 people knew that Venom Snake was not Big Boss and they seemingly did not share this information.

The Medic, after the events of GZ, is a Big Boss. There's two now. Who the real one is doesn't matter to the people of that universe because they are never in the same "room" together.

Solid Snake defeated Big Boss during the events of Metal Gear. He also defeated Big Boss during the events of Metal Gear 2. Those Big Bosses were two different people.

So which reality are we discussing? Kojima's reality, the reality within MGS or our reality? Just so you know, I understand what your saying just that to me I think the opposite is true.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Anyone else feel that Kojima shouldn't have fleshed out more of the story with Big Boss after MGS3? That one game was all that was really needed to show why Big Boss did what he did. Less is more.

But now Kojima had to get all weird and convoluted with it as he is wont to do.

 

[Guess Who]

So, based on what we know, which characters are in on the whole Venom switcharoo?

 

[Ralemont]

So, based on what we know, which characters are in on the whole Venom switcharoo?

The leak said Zero, BB, Miller, Ocelot, I think.

 

[Hands of Stone]

So, based on what we know, which characters are in on the whole Venom switcharoo?

BB, Ocelot and Zero for sure, Kaz I think knows.

 

[RK9039]

So, based on what we know, which characters are in on the whole Venom switcharoo?

Zero, Miller, Ocelot and real Big Boss.

 

[SictorVullivan]

So, based on what we know, which characters are in on the whole Venom switcharoo?

Zero, Ocelot, Kaz and Big Boss (Ishmael), maybe even the doctor and the nurse.

 

[Forkball]

So now that we know more story details, I have one question for you all.

 

[saher]

Damn found 2 stores that sells the PS4 version but none sell the Xbone version yet

 

[Ishida]

Anyone else feel that Kojima shouldn't have fleshed out more of the story with Big Boss after MGS3? That one game was all that was really needed to show why Big Boss did what he did. Less is more.

But now Kojima had to get all weird and convoluted with it as he is wont to do.

Yeah. I love all the games, but Peace Walker, Ground Zeroes and TPP were unnecessary.

So now that we know more story details, I have one question for you all.

My answer: No.

 

[Formless]

Anyone else feel that Kojima shouldn't have fleshed out more of the story with Big Boss after MGS3? That one game was all that was really needed to show why Big Boss did what he did. Less is more.

But now Kojima had to get all weird and convoluted with it as he is wont to do.

Yeah, in an ideal world. But we also would've gotten MG1/MG2 remakes/prequels and something in between MGS2 and MGS4 too.

 

[Ralemont]

So now that we know more story details, I have one question for you all.

Leaning more and more towards yes. If that Zero tape is real (which I'm pretty sure it is) then that's good stuff.

 

[SictorVullivan]

So now that we know more story details, I have one question for you all.

Imagine if this is the 3rd ending.

 

[Charlouie Jonesman]

The game doesn't really explain why Miller later switched sides and helped Solid Snake to take down the real Big Boss, does it? Or why he changed his name?

 

[Ishida]

Imagine if this is the 3rd ending.

There's a third ending?

 

[SictorVullivan]

There's a third ending?

Pretty sure there's an ending no one has seen yet (so called mission 48?).

 

[Venom Fox]

Big Boss is dead, Venom and Ishmael are two people made to look like Big Boss.

 

[Ishida]

Big Boss is dead, Venom and Ishmael are two people made to look like Big Boss.

Please no, man. That would be like that dumbass original ending to Terminator Salvation where John Connor dies and is replaced with a Terminator that looks like him.

 

[Hands of Stone]

Pretty sure there's an ending no one has seen yet (so called mission 48?).

Wait I thought we learning about VS not being BB as the final (3rd) ending?

The hell is left to know?

 

[FtsH]

Just saw this....might explain everything:

This "Kojima" tweeting right now is not the real one. The real Kojima has been put into a coma by Konami earlier during TPP development. This fake Kojima intentionally introduced the Venom Snake character, who was not in the original script at all, as a stealthy way to ask for the world's help to free the real Kojima from Konami's hand. This fake Kojima was a no-name female programmer at Kojima Productions. Konami tortured her and forced multiple plastic surgeries on her. This also explains why recent "Kojima" pictures don't look like a 52 years old man, but much younger. She has always been loyal to the true Kojima-san!

 

[TwoDurans]

Wait I thought we learning about VS not being BB as the final (3rd) ending?

The hell is left to know?

How BB went evil. Why BB felt the need to keep the VS ruse up. Why Outer Heaven was formed if it wasn't to directly fight Zero. There's a few things still in the air.

 

[SictorVullivan]

Wait I thought we learning about VS not being BB as the final (3rd) ending?

The hell is left to know?

To be honest I'm so confused about this whole game that I honestly dont know if there's a 3rd ending or mission 48, maybe someone else can clear this up.

 

[FartOfWar]

Because it's a game, it's scientifically proven that a clone would look, talk and have the same behaviour as the original model from which they made a clone.

They are clones of the same person.

Is this the level of scientific illiteracy required to think Metal Gear narrative is good?

 

[Krabboss]

Thanks, I see it now

So which reality are we discussing? Kojima's reality, the reality within MGS or our reality? Just so you know, I understand what your saying just that to me I think the opposite is true.

The events of Metal Gear Solid are not reality. I'm sure Kojima's reality is the same as any other human which exists on this planet we call Earth. So A and C.

Kojima has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to science. He doesn't understand dominant and recessive genes or genomes and he does not understand cloning. Kojima has a penchant for explaining things too much (like George Lucas with Midi-chlorians). Instead of letting the game have a sense of mysticism to it he has resorted to treating science like it's magic and just written some silly stuff. Facial reconstruction in the 1980s which makes you look exactly like another person is an example of this.

 

[SyberWolf]

Early look at Rise of the Tomb Raider source from /mgg/

that area looks awsome. cant wait to explore the maps.

 

[Hands of Stone]

How BB went evil. Why BB felt the need to keep the VS ruse up. Why Outer Heaven was formed if it wasn't to directly fight Zero. There's a few things still in the air.

To be honest I'm so confused about this whole game that I honestly dont know if there's a 3rd ending or mission 48, maybe someone else can clear this up.

I'm still holding onto a bit of hope for a SS VS BB (the real BB) fight in HD.

You do that Kojima, I'll accept whatever bullshit story/retcons you wanna tell.

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Anyone else feel that Kojima shouldn't have fleshed out more of the story with Big Boss after MGS3? That one game was all that was really needed to show why Big Boss did what he did. Less is more.

But now Kojima had to get all weird and convoluted with it as he is wont to do.

Problem is these games are ending up unnecessary because they only have bits of that relevant info and it doesn't ever connect.
PO= Foxhound
PW= MSF= Outer Heaven's foundation
V= Zero is irrelevant before Boss awakens, Venom grows BB legend, Venom dies in BB's place, BB has another country of soldiers to revolt against now irrelevant Zero and dies anyway?

What is Big Boss fighting exactly? You're in Zero's group and he is now irrelevant and the AIs haven't taken over yet, You Eva and Ocelot take the power of the Patriots and do whatever you want.

 

[Venom Fox]

Please no, man. That would be like that dumbass original ending to Terminator Salvation where John Connor dies and is replaced with a Terminator that looks like him.

It's gonna happen. "From Fox two Phantoms are born" Ishmael and Ahab. Ishmael goes and re joins Foxhound while Ahab creates Outer heaven. When Ahab is killed, Ishmael creates the Zanzibar uprising and is placed in a coma until MGS4.

ITS HAPPENING! There never was a Big Boss, he denounced his title in PW and died before the clones, Ahab and Ishmael were born. Snake actually died in the shower fight with Kaz, Kaz exploded into a Jpop dance and the force of it killed Naked Snake (literally).

 

[Ishida]

Problem is these games are ending up unnecessary because they only have bits of that relevant info and it doesn't ever connect.
PO= Foxhound
PW= MSF= Outer Heaven
V= Zero is irrelevant before Boss awakens, Venom grows BB legend, Venom dies in BB's place, BB has another country of soldiers to revolt against now irrelevant Zero and dies anyway?

I'd say Portable Ops is the most important one of those, due to it actually showing how Zero got hold of the Legacy. Without that, Zero just becomes the richest and most powerful man in the world out of nothing.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Yeah. I love all the games, but Peace Walker, Ground Zeroes and TPP were unnecessary.

Yeah, in an ideal world. But we also would've gotten MG1/MG2 remakes/prequels and something in between MGS2 and MGS4 too.

I didn't play Peace Walker (or watched it), but I've read summaries and it's basically Kojima-styled nonsense. Sometimes, well, most of the time, he needs to reel it in and let the work speak for itself instead of over explaining everything. The games between MGS3 and MG1 ruin the mystique surrounding Big Boss. Everything and everyone being connected to everything and everyone ruins it, as well. When I learned that Zero was responsible for the Patriots, I was just flabbergasted. And then learned that Sigint was the DARPA chief. Kojima, stop.

 

[megazone]

My reaction after reading some spoilers, Damn I love kojima's stories ^_^

 

[Gbraga]

Kojima should workd on a sequel to Samurai Flamenco. It would use his abilities quite well.

 

[Erigu]

Anyone else feel that Kojima shouldn't have fleshed out more of the story with Big Boss after MGS3? That one game was all that was really needed to show why Big Boss did what he did. Less is more.
But now Kojima had to get all weird and convoluted with it as he is wont to do.

I don't know that I'd consider the idea of detailing the downfall of Big Boss over one or several sequels necessarily pointless in itself... but yeah: Kojima. Like you said, things tends to get overly weird and convoluted fast, with him.
Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater had the natural advantage of more or less starting from scratch, but the following games (hell, even the conclusion of Metal Gear Solid 3 Snake Eater itself) didn't exactly do wonders for Naked Snake's story. Naturally, I won't pass judgment on this game's plot until I've played it and thought about it some, but based on what I've read so far, it seems I was right to seriously keep my expectations in check...

 

[Sub_Level]

Its still funny that Paramedic, the quirky film buff, turns into a mad scientist who does sick things to Gray Fox.

 

[Hands of Stone]

Its still funny that Paramedic, the quirky film buff, turns into a mad scientist who does sick things to Gray Fox.

Sigint really is the only one out of the original support staff from Snake Eater who didn't make a major heel turn, dude just loved technology.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Kojima should workd on a sequel to Samurai Flamenco. It would use his abilities quite well.

I'd be completely fine with that. I love that show.

 

[Forkball]

Remember when Big Boss was the bad guy but then it turns out Liquid was also a bad guy but then the Patriots are the real bad guys but they're robots and also Ocelot who is now Liquid is a bad guy but The Boss is not a bad guy but everyone thinks she's a bad guy and Zero is actually the ultimate bad guy but now Zero is not really that bad of a guy nor is Big Boss but Venom is a bad guy but Skullface is also a bad guy but not as bad as some other bad guys?

 

[Snacks the sober sea lion]

Its still funny that Paramedic, the quirky film buff, turns into a mad scientist who does sick things to Gray Fox.

Thanks, MGS4!

 

[Razgriz-Specter]

Its still funny that Paramedic, the quirky film buff, turns into a mad scientist who does sick things to Gray Fox.

I wanted her to be doing evil shit in this but now its looking unlikely.
I was one of the few that liked the whole revelation to who they were but the potential seems completely thrown away.

Now after some of the V spoilers Zero even seems to be getting backpedaled.

 

[Erigu]

Remember when Big Boss was the bad guy but then it turns out Liquid was also a bad guy but then the Patriots are the real bad guys but they're robots and also Ocelot who is now Liquid is a bad guy but The Boss is not a bad guy but everyone thinks she's a bad guy and Zero is actually the ultimate bad guy but now Zero is not really that bad of a guy nor is Big Boss but Venom is a bad guy but Skullface is also a bad guy but not as bad as some other bad guys?

It all comes together so neatly!