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[Oersted]

Just read what Daily Mail wrote about one of the attackers. Despite it being Daily Mail...

I hope it ends up being true, because good grief thats ALOT of red flags.

 

[Audioboxer]

Just heard/seen all the news break on BBC News about the attackers. Outrageous as usual they were known and reported.

Imagine being the son/daughter/mother/father of any of these victims and have to see the mainstream news plastered with "he was known and reported".

Details here ~ http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40165646

Khuram Butt, 27, was married with children and lived in Barking, east London for a number of years.

The power of being radicalised everyone.

 

[Auraela]

Just read what Daily Mail wrote about one of the attackers. Despite it being Daily Mail...

I hope it ends up being true, because good grief thats ALOT of red flags.

Yea i posted it earlier and its a decent article. Abused by mother
lost his father at young age was hit by car same year. Guy needed help early.

 

[Boy Wander]

Just heard/seen all the news break on BBC News about the attackers. Outrageous as usual they were known and reported.

Imagine being the son/daughter/mother/father of any of these victims and have to see the mainstream news plastered with "he was known and reported".

Hang on though. He was the subject of an investigation and at the time his priority among the FIVE HUNDRED investigations at the top of the list was lowered because there was no evidence of any imminent or in progress plans ( encrypted messages and the like). They can't actively pursue 500 investigations simultaneously with the same level of attention.

 

[Snarfington]

I'm just gonna go ahead and have a hearty chuckle at the fact one of the fuckers behind this has the surname Butt.

They don't deserve anything more or anything less.

 

[Audioboxer]

Hang on though. He was the subject of an investigation and at the time his priority among the FIVE HUNDRED investigations at the top of the list was lowered because there was no evidence of any imminent or in progress plans ( encrypted messages and the like). They can't actively pursue 500 investigations simultaneously with the same level of attention.

I know, I've argued this already, but the point stands imagine being the family members affected by yet again more radicals on lists who don't get stopped in time. Very rarely if ever does it end up "we didn't know anything about this person carrying out a totally unexpected crime".

 

[Raigan5088]

One of them was even in a Channel 4 doc about Jihadis in the UK... absolute insanity that they were aloud to practice this hate.

There were others in that doc that followed that same doctrine as this one that was shot dead, i hope they are arrested and questioned at the very least

 

[velociraptor]

There's been some dangerous views on restrictions of free speech in this thread but we certainly let Choudary fester in the streets letting him preach his hatred for far, far too long. I hope he stays locked away for the foreseeable future.

There is nothing dangerous about restricting hate speech. No one should be allowed to incite any hatred or violence towards others, regardless of your colour, creed or background.

 

[Oersted]

Yea i posted it earlier and its a decent article. Abused by mother
lost his father at young age was hit by car same year. Guy needed help early.

A friend of mine had it alot harder, is also muslim and... is the friendliest person on the earth. Mind you, his growing up didn't help, but if the article is anything to go by, he has some extra screws lose.

He needed help and a stop sign.

 

[Ashes]

There is nothing dangerous about restricting hate speech. No one should be allowed to incite any hatred or violence towards others, regardless of your colour, creed or background.

So you'd stop Dawkins and the like gawking on about their hatred of religion?

 

[Boy Wander]

So you'd stop Dawkins and the like gawking on about their hatred of religion?

What's that got to do with it? Hate preach is hate preach regardless of faith.

 

[Breakage]

So he was on a C4 doc. Damn, this country is just letting people practise this shit openly and it's even filmed, given a "funny" title (the Jihadis Next Door) and made into evening entertainment for the masses.

 

[Oersted]

So you'd stop Dawkins and the like gawking on about their hatred of religion?

If someone would crowdfund a prison for people who preach white supremacy, extremistic religious interpretations and other shades of failure, I would so pay

 

[brokenbeans]

We should profile everyone in the country, everyone who we suspect potentially might do something criminal in the future should just be locked up without trial.

Yeah absolutely glad you see where I'm coming from 👍🏻

 

[Audioboxer]

So you'd stop Dawkins and the like gawking on about their hatred of religion?

While the waters can get muddied a bit, there is often a distinction between hating an ideology/belief and directly hating a person/people. As there is when it's an incitement to violence/commit an illegal act.

Mocking a God/religion can often offend and appear pretty hateful, but care has to be taken to discern if there is a genuine threat behind words. I mean, as much as MILLIONS of people hate a prime example in Charlie Hebdo, it's not necessarily something that should result in the creators of the content being locked up. You can discern intent, and therefore mockery from a genuine threat to safety/to a person or people.

Anyway, all of this is going a bit off topic. I'm pretty certain most people on watchlists or behind atrocities like this are way beyond simply criticising or mocking. They are often inciting direct discrimination/bigotry/intolerance right up to calls for violence/killing. That is what hate speech laws should protect against, not dumb witchhunts against edgy atheists. Freedom of religion and freedom of speech can coincide just fine. Our society has proven that for a long time, with Christ/Christianity/Catholicism routinely criticised and mocked, long before Islam even really began to grow on this island. Religion, in general, has been mocked and criticised for years in the West without whole swarms of people locked up for "hate". There needs to be serious intent, abuse or direct intolerance behind words for us to want to start locking people up. Otherwise, you end up like some societies who simply lock up bloggers for criticising religion.

I have a feeling velociraptor is talking about something along the lines of this, which I think most of us Brits will agree with. You cannot have serious hate being preached and tolerated on our streets/in society when it can radicalise and cause people to harm others.

 

[Boy Wander]

So he was on a C4 doc. Damn, this country is just letting people practise this shit openly and it's even filmed, given a "funny" title (the Jihadis Next Door) and made into evening entertainment for the masses.

What I find more scary is that there are scores of people higher up the priority list than this guy.

 

[Theonik]

If someone would crowdfund a prison for people who preach white supremacy, extremistic religious interpretations and other shades of failure, I would so pay

We call that... Taxation.

 

[pulsemyne]

So once again we knew them and they had been reported. Police simply do not have the numbers to deal with the threat. It's painfully obvious.

 

[KingSnake]

Hang on though. He was the subject of an investigation and at the time his priority among the FIVE HUNDRED investigations at the top of the list was lowered because there was no evidence of any imminent or in progress plans ( encrypted messages and the like). They can't actively pursue 500 investigations simultaneously with the same level of attention.

It would be a bit ridiculous if UK can't find the resources to deal with 500 investigations at once.

 

[Ashes]

So once again we knew them and they had been reported. Police simply do not have the numbers to deal with the threat. It's painfully obvious.

This time he was on TV too.

 

[Breakage]

What I find more scary is that there are scores of people higher up the priority list than this guy.

Yeah, I just get the impression that this country isn't taking Islamist extremism as seriously as it should. A major broadcaster made a programme about a bunch of extremists brazenly practising their Western-hating ideology of terror and gave it a funny title to suggest that these guys are a familiar harmless part of British society who simply go on mad rants. I dunno maybe the film "Four Lions" has caused us to view Islamist extremists as a hilarious bunch of bumbling idiots who aren't as dangerous as they actually are.

 

[Oersted]

We call that... Taxation.

Oh really? I just tried to invoke a image (and failed). Wasn't meant to be taken literally.

 

[Audioboxer]

It would be a bit ridiculous if UK can't find the resources to deal with 500 investigations at once.

The bigger point is it seems 500 ISN'T enough

MI5 has thwarted five terror plots in the last two months alone as the country faces an ”unparalled" threat from Islamist extremists, according to a senior Whitehall source.

The threat is so high that security services in the UK are currently managing around 500 active investigations looking into some 3,000 potential suspects, the Telegraph reported.

Officials say a total of 18 plots have been foiled since 2013.

A former senior security figure added: "For every suspect that appears to be high priority another has to be pushed down the list.

"So who not to investigate urgently is as important a decision as who might be worth investigating."

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...ve-terror-plots-thwarted-in-two-a3549641.html

 

[Kadayi]

So you'd stop Dawkins and the like gawking on about their hatred of religion?

Are you genuinely drawing a direct equivalence between Atheism and Radical Islam? Despite being an Athiest myself, I'm not a huge fan of Dawkins in terms of his somewhat brusque manner, however, I've yet to recall him ever preaching for the violence against those who fail to heed his ideas.

I think it's all very well to try and argue for freedom of speech as a universal right in the abstract, but I think there comes a point where in one has to ask how much tolerance should a society give to those whose central desire is to dismantle said freedoms in the long term.

 

[Kinyou]

Hang on though. He was the subject of an investigation and at the time his priority among the FIVE HUNDRED investigations at the top of the list was lowered because there was no evidence of any imminent or in progress plans ( encrypted messages and the like). They can't actively pursue 500 investigations simultaneously with the same level of attention.

It has been a bunch of times now that the future terrorist was already on the radar of the authorities, right? That's really the issue that needs to be tackled, how they can find a better way to weed him out of those five hundred other investigations.

Stuff like regulating the internet is unlikely to help there.

 

[jelly]

What can do except lock up every suspect for life and that's stupid, might as well lock up many more people from all sorts of backgrounds just to be sure nothing bad happens to anyone.

The solution is really the grass roots, zero tolerance to extremist views, rehabilitation to the max, there is something seriously wrong with people getting taken in by extremism and carrying out acts. Everyone has shit lives but something works on them more than any other group, it's bizarre and needs looked at properly. Lastly, police funding, community policing, pretty obvious fault that needs fixed promptly.

 

[Cthuluhoop]

So once again we knew them and they had been reported. Police simply do not have the numbers to deal with the threat. It's painfully obvious.

I don't agree. Police do have the numbers to deal with the threat. It took around 8 minutes for police to respond to the Manchester attack and even less for the London attack. These are big cities and even with more police they wouldn't have gotten there any quicker due to the areas being densley populated.

More police on the streets doesn't mean that the likely hood of attack will be lessend. I honestly don't know why this is a popular sentiment among us.

Police don't deal with terror suspects, as we know it's the specialist CTU units and MI5 that deal with homeland threats. Once a terror suspect has been pointed out it is passed on to MI5 who have thousands of people monitoring them 24/7. A report by the BBC after the Manchester attack pointed out that it takes around 20 people to monitor a suspect 24/7. With over 3000 suspects being monitored that means there are 60,000 people tracking known suspects.

Realistically how many more vetted and trained people can you employ to help monitor other lesser known suspects?

It's a hard balance to find and simply employing more police won't solve anything whatsoever.

In my opinion we have to bring in stricter laws in dealing with suspects. As in straight up locking them up in secure units as soon as evidence is found away from others who they could radicalise.

New laws to prevent people spreading hate speech in public.

New laws to prevent any material being passed around mosque's and maybe people tracking everything that goes on in mosque's. (Yeah I know I'll get shit for saying that but at the end of the day, these people are Muslim and getting radicalised somewhere which could include their mosque's.)

Charging UK born proven suspects with treason and bringing back the death penalty for such crimes.

Tighter internet regulation by 3rd parties and allowing MI5 and GCHQ direct access to forums and 3rd party messaging apps. Create laws that mean anyone being monitored can only be monitored if they are a suspect. This means that the general public don't have to worry about becoming a "victim" of a breach of privacy.

Laws that mean if you are caught with any material in relation to a radicalised view or material that could be used to radicalise another person, they are locked up straight away or banned and monitored from being able to communicate with anyone else.

Oh and people like Anjem Choudry need to be locked up for life at the first available opportunity. That man should have been sentenced to death. All those people he blatantly radicalised and the police couldn't do fuck all about it... This is why the law needs to change.

What can do except lock up every suspect for life and that's stupid, might as well lock up many more people from all sorts of backgrounds just to be sure nothing bad happens to anyone.

The solution is really the grass roots, zero tolerance to extremist views, rehabilitation to the max, there is something seriously wrong with people getting taken in by extremism and carrying out acts. Everyone has shit lives but something works on them more than any other group, it's bizarre and needs looked at properly. Lastly, police funding, community policing, pretty obvious fault that needs fixed promptly.

I agree. Though I don't see how more police directly lowers terror attacks. If a terrorist wants to kill people. They will do it no matter whether the army or police are there. All it means is they will be killed first.

 

[Ashes]

Are you genuinely drawing a direct equivalence between Atheism and Radical Islam? Despite being an Athiest myself, I'm not a huge fan of Dawkins in terms of his somewhat brusque manner, however, I've yet to recall him ever preaching for the violence against those who fail to heed his ideas.

I think it's all very well to try and argue for freedom of speech as a universal right in the abstract, but I think there comes a point where in one has to ask how much tolerance should a society give to those whose central desire is to dismantle said freedoms in the long term.

No. I propped him up to show who else could fall foul of hate speech laws if we extended them just a tad more.

Anjem Choudury was a solicitor so skirted his way around the law for the longest time. And he was a nailed on Daesh supporter. Dawkins barely reads some of the books he criticises, and if his Twitter debacles are anything to go by, doubt he wouldn't put his foot in it. Unintentional or otherwise.

 

[Goodlife]

Honest to god

 

[Audioboxer]

What can do except lock up every suspect for life and that's stupid, might as well lock up many more people from all sorts of backgrounds just to be sure nothing bad happens to anyone.

The solution is really the grass roots, zero tolerance to extremist views, rehabilitation to the max, there is something seriously wrong with people getting taken in by extremism and carrying out acts. Everyone has shit lives but something works on them more than any other group, it's bizarre and needs looked at properly. Lastly, police funding, community policing, pretty obvious fault that needs fixed promptly.

We already have issues in the prisons and with rehabilitation attempts

Around three-quarters of the 583 people imprisoned on terror charges in the years since the 9/11 attacks have now served their sentences and been released from UK prisons, many still holding the same extremist beliefs that got them jailed in the first place.

Sky News has been told that around two-thirds of those released refused to engage with prison deradicalisation programmes aimed at addressing their extremist behaviour.

http://news.sky.com/story/warning-as-hundreds-of-jailed-terrorists-back-on-uk-streets-10639848

The review found evidence that IE is a growing problem within prisons, and a central, comprehensive and coordinated strategy is required to monitor and counter it. For example, to ensure the scale and complexity of IE is widely understood, manifestations of extremism must be systematically reported, and sanctions to deter and punish such behaviour applied. There should be changes in NOMS' policy and practice to enable this.

The review recommends a more coordinated and rehearsed response to violent incidents. Some prisoners sentenced under the Terrorism Act 2000 and its successors (known as TACT prisoners) aspire to acts of extreme violence which require not only action within prisons but oversight and direction from experienced operational staff working centrally. A new strategy should focus on greater coordination with the police.

The review recommends that the present system under which TACT and IE prisoners are dispersed across prisons should be reviewed, and consideration given to containment of known extremists within dedicated specialist units.

Such prisoners extend the threat of radicalisation beyond those arrested for terrorist offences. Other prisoners – both Muslim and non-Muslim – serving sentences for crimes unrelated to terrorism are nevertheless vulnerable to radicalisation by Islamist Extremists. Statistics show an increasing and disproportionate representation of Muslims within the criminal justice system, which could chime with the radicalisers' message of the victimisation of Muslims. 2

Current trends suggest that the number of prisoners guilty of offences relating to terrorism and extremism are likely to increase. For instance, it has been reported that at least 800 Britons have travelled to Syria and Iraq to fight, 3 while others have travelled to Afghanistan, Somalia and Yemen. A significant number of these have returned to the UK, of whom a portion will enter the criminal justice system. We can therefore expect the number of TACT and IE prisoners to continue to increase with knock-on consequences for the scale of the threat of radicalisation in prisons.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...n-and-youth-justice#principal-recommendations

It's been a clusterfuck doing readings into all of this from failing to investigate/catch people when they're on the streets, to our prison services failing as well. If we're going to discuss lengthening sentences and locking more people up it doesn't help if our prisons end up day camps for radicalisation and then release the same mindsets back into the public.

 

[KZObsessed]

If the police/government allow known IS supporters to exist freely in society then this is what's gonna happen. People are gonna be killed. They have a lot to answer for at the moment.

 

[velociraptor]

So you'd stop Dawkins and the like gawking on about their hatred of religion?

I've never watched any of his talks, but if he has inspired people to harm religious people then sure.

I'm talking about inciting violence or discord against others.

 

[Ashes]

I've never watched any of his talks, but if he has inspired people to harm religious people then sure.

I'm talking about inciting violence or discord against others.

Inciting violence is already covered by law I think. But feel to correct me on that.

 

[Condom]

Local policing helps with bonding with the local communities and fixing problems at their core. There is plenty research on that and I've written research on it myself.

That's why you don't cut human-intensive police work.

 

[Cthuluhoop]

Local policing helps with bonding with the local communities and fixing problems at their core. There is plenty research on that and I've written research on it myself.

That's why you don't cut human-intensive police work.

Yeah but I think the problem is too deep rooted for the police to fix. I understand what you are saying but that's just my thoughts on the matter. If there's data to suggest that more police will stop people from being radicalised and committing acts of terror then my opinion may be swayed.

 

[Audioboxer]

Damn, this video clip...

Attacker once appeared in TV documentary

Posted at 20:17

Khuram Butt, 27, one of the men who carried out Saturday's attack, once featured in a Channel 4 documentary about Islamist extremists with links to the jailed preacher Anjem Choudary.

Butt, from Barking, east London was known to police and MI5 but there was no intelligence to suggest that he was planning an attack.

You can see it here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-40147014

I haven't seen the documentary, but the flag... Jeez, not a good outcome at all.

 

[Raigan5088]

I remember vividly walking past a demonstration in London by these dogs holding ISIS paraphernalia and the police standing ideally by doing nothing.

I was stunned and sickened.

There needs to be a zero tolerance on all ISIS related paraphernalia and associations, lots of these scumbags are living of state benefits, they should be reduced significantly and issued food vouchers rather than cash.

 

[KZObsessed]

I remember vividly walking past a demonstration in London by these dogs holding ISIS paraphernalia and the police standing ideally by doing nothing.

I was stunned and sickened.

There needs to be a zero tolerance on all ISIS related paraphernalia and associations.

I've seen police actively protecting them from the (understandbly) angry public. They should have been arresting them not protecting them. That's one of the reasons this ideology is allowed to spread.

 

[Soldiussnaku]

I remember vividly walking past a demonstration in London by these dogs holding ISIS paraphernalia and the police standing ideally by doing nothing.

I was stunned and sickened.

There needs to be a zero tolerance on all ISIS related paraphernalia and associations, lots of these scumbags are living of state benefits, they should be reduced significantly and issued food vouchers rather than cash.

Yeah it's ridiculous how it just gets allowed to happen. I'm all for freedom of expression, being a devout Muslim, but it's insane how these society destroying POVs and even protests against our way of life in the uk is allowed to happen. It needs to be classed as hate speech.

These people will not compromise until they are forced to, we need to shut everything down relating to these evil fuckwits and send a clear message it's not tolerable.

 

[Maledict]

Okay, people need to understand that these protesters usually go right up to the edge of the law - but not over it. It took years before Andram Choudry actually committed an offence the police were confident would stand up in court. If they aren't calling for specific deaths or acts of violence then it's very hard to make a case that they shouldn't be allowed to speak, as awful as they are.

 

[King Gilga]

I remember vividly walking past a demonstration in London by these dogs holding ISIS paraphernalia and the police standing ideally by doing nothing.

I was stunned and sickened.

There needs to be a zero tolerance on all ISIS related paraphernalia and associations, lots of these scumbags are living of state benefits, they should be reduced significantly and issued food vouchers rather than cash.

What? These people should be arrested why ramble about benefits and shit?

 

[Raigan5088]

What? These people should be arrested why ramble about benefits and shit?

Arrested and then released...

needs to be more punishment in their daily lives

 

[Maledict]

Arrested and then released...

needs to be more punishment in their daily lives

Because fanatics who are trying to get people to blow themselves up are going to stop because we give them less benefits.

That isn't how this works at all.

 

[Syder]

Damn, this video clip...



You can see it here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-40147014

I haven't seen the documentary, but the flag... Jeez, not a good outcome at all.

Wow... it's really disappointing that someone could hold extremist views publicly for that long and not be very closely watched.

Here is said documentary by the way

 

[Raigan5088]

Because fanatics who are trying to get people to blow themselves up are going to stop because we give them less benefits.

That isn't how this works at all.

Im talking about the 'moderate front' of ISIS that is displayed in the UK today by a small percentage of the Islamic community.

Cutting of any money will hurt.

 

[Audioboxer]

Wow... it's really disappointing that someone could hold extremist views publicly for that long and not be very closely watched.

Here is said documentary by the way

Thanks, but I think it's probably going to be a difficult watch right now.

 

[Cthuluhoop]

I remember vividly walking past a demonstration in London by these dogs holding ISIS paraphernalia and the police standing ideally by doing nothing.

I was stunned and sickened.

There needs to be a zero tolerance on all ISIS related paraphernalia and associations, lots of these scumbags are living of state benefits, they should be reduced significantly and issued food vouchers rather than cash.

I've seen police actively protecting them from the (understandbly) angry public. They should have been arresting them not protecting them. That's one of the reasons this ideology is allowed to spread.

Yeah it's ridiculous how it just gets allowed to happen. I'm all for freedom of expression, being a devout Muslim, but it's insane how these society destroying POVs and even protests against our way of life in the uk is allowed to happen. It needs to be classed as hate speech.

These people will not compromise until they are forced to, we need to shut everything down relating to these evil fuckwits and send a clear message it's not tolerable.

Okay, people need to understand that these protesters usually go right up to the edge of the law - but not over it. It took years before Andram Choudry actually committed an offence the police were confident would stand up in court. If they aren't calling for specific deaths or acts of violence then it's very hard to make a case that they shouldn't be allowed to speak, as awful as they are.

And this is why the law needs to change. If you're trying to radicalise people into becoming supporters of ISIS and subsequently terrorists they should be charged with crimes against the state and tried for treason.

I watched the BBC3 documentaries about Choudry and it made my blood boil.

 

[Ether_Snake]

We can arrest people, deport them, and nd prevent them from making propaganda events here when it comes to anti-semitism. You'd think pro-IS propaganda would be as easily banned. Free speech my ass, they want to eradicate the society that gives them those rights, so they should have none.

 

[Raigan5088]

We can arrest people, deport them, and nd prevent them from making propaganda events here when it comes to anti-semitism. You'd think pro-IS propaganda would be as easily banned. Free speech my ass, they want to eradicate the society that gives them those rights, so they should have none.

Correct.

The far left have a lot to answer for, many people are scared to be branded 'racist' when trying to confront this poison in the Islamic community

 

[Miles Quaritch]

That video is maddening. I'm pretty sure IS propaganda is banned and you can be arrested for it, so what the hell at him just being free to go about his business?

I'm at the forefront of arguing for more resources, but this isn't a case of needed more resources, this is a case of sheer incompetence in allowing someone like him to walk free and not keep a much closer on him and those he was meeting with.