ClosingADoor
Member
This stuff should be done the same how Germany has banned nazi stuff. No bullshit about free speech. Some stuff just goes too far to allow in the open.
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Terrorist attack in London [up: 6 people killed, ~50 injured, 3 attackers dead]
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
Theonik
Member
I think this was recorded in 2013, before IS propaganda was illegal. Nullum crimen sine lege. After that they just largely went underground.
The Germans banned the symbols of the Nazis but you cannot moderate thought. Nazis and their ideology still exists in modern Germany in varying levels of light. Neo-nazis and fascist groups are even allowed to (peacefully) protest. They just don't call themselves Nazis. e: But when they do...
Audioboxer
Member
Damn, that documentary isn't an easy watch Syder. It's a bit depressing seeing it all in video form rather than just stats and polls. Intrigue got the better of me. The sheer and utter hatred and contempt for so many of the values we celebrate. The same can be said for how they view "incorrect Muslims". The reactions to the ISIS execution videos... Jeez. Even although there was an admittance they were gruesome, most people couldn't sit and keep eating. Also, count how many times "social media" is mentioned.
It's no wonder there are so many on lists with those kinds of views and behaviour. It's also sad to see the youth getting influenced on camera. I think another worrying thing is how genuine they seem in their beliefs, while also learning how to try and skirt the law. The indoctrination levels of their minds are absolutely off the charts. Some might say a mind which is unrecoverable. It's no wonder deradicalisation attempts often fail. Depressing.
I recommend people watch it to get a short insight into the battle that is faced against propaganda and hate preaching.
Yeah, I found it pretty sickening. The battle against this sort of hate preaching and indoctrination is not going to be an easy one.
Does the UK not have privacy laws when it comes to suspects? I see full names published on the BBC timeline of people who might be totally innocent. How are they gonna get a job after this?
EDIT: and yeah that dude being in the documentary is mind blowing. To see someone going from the spotlight on national tv to actually being able to plan and carry out an attack...
EDIT: and yeah that dude being in the documentary is mind blowing. To see someone going from the spotlight on national tv to actually being able to plan and carry out an attack...
Stead Fast
Banned
I tapped out when the two in that video started to insolently feign any sense of morality as they watched the ISIS execution videos, even chuckling to the interviewer's face about how they'd react if it were him in those videos.
Will watch the rest tomorrow when I'm in a bit of a clearer mood.
Will watch the rest tomorrow when I'm in a bit of a clearer mood.
I'm pretty sure they're dead, that will already make getting a job pretty tough.
Libel laws don't really apply to the deceased.
I feel like this thread has been looked over:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1386051
According to this music journalist the police picked up on something he typed in his phone, found him and did a stop and search. I really doubt this is true but seems like a huge deal relating to police powers and surveillance? Wish it came from a source besides Rolling Stone.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1386051
According to this music journalist the police picked up on something he typed in his phone, found him and did a stop and search. I really doubt this is true but seems like a huge deal relating to police powers and surveillance? Wish it came from a source besides Rolling Stone.
Sounds like a load of fiction if I'm honest. Police can barely triangulate peoples phones with any accuracy when searching for dangerous suspects and high risk missing people, the technology available to them is very limited.
Instantly finding a guy in the middle of thousands a few seconds after he typed something about helicopters? Yeah got my doubts.
TTOOLL
Member
This is simply unacceptable. How long will people just wait for the next attack to be done by one who openly support extremist ideas??
Yeah it is madness. I believe the people that have died and been injured in the recent terrorist attacks are also victims of excessive tolerance and political correctness. This problem with Islamic extremism should not have been allowed to grow into what it is today.
This Channel 4 Dispatches clip from 2007 shows what was happening inside a British mosque back in 2007:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16Egi2V4lgg
When you see the ideas that were being installed into minds 10 years ago, today's integration and extremism problems aren't so surprising. We always talk about the need for better integration, but as this clip demonstrates the teachings of a more literalist intepretation of Islam seriously inhibit efforts towards integration. These people have the temerity to preach their harmful ideas because this country has given them the freedom and cover to do so.
Hmm dont know why but doesnt feel right, would like to know more details tbh
That wouldnt be the case unless people are using racist terminology or generalizing. Why not use the same language Muslims do to tackle these people? People that ignore this distinction are not doing any favours to anyone and are simply helping this poison remain hidden because it often means going after the wrong people drawing attention away from the real culprits.
Also, as we've heard, we're making progress within the community, they recognise and report these extremists, the're being brought forward, in the case of these guys they were ostricised from the wider community and banned from places of worship. The idea that this is going on unnoticed isnt true as we've come to know. We need to do more ofcourse, but do so in a collaborative way.
Imams come together to refuse funeral prayers for terrorists, urging all religious authorities to do the same, for men that believe they are gods soldiers this is the a good way to get back at them, refuse thier claim as 'muslim' that the cherish above all, even life.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ayers-to-indefensible-london-bridge-attackers
You Are Viewtiful
Member
Wow, just watched this. We need to monitor these preachers much more closely. I don't think they should be allowed to print pamphlets or organize like that.
Magic Mushroom
Member
Online is a far bigger problem and much harder to deal with.
That guy in the documentary that says:
"Theresa May can solve this problem of extremism very quick; give all of us back our passports, let us leave, and there won't be a single extremist left in this country ... [I would] ... live under the Sharia; that would involve me sitting there practicing Islam the way I want to practice it."
Give them their passports back I say.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
You know what I'm tired of?
People will propose some sort of measure that should be taken, and then people will reply that it's not perfect so it's pointless.
Ban people from positively talking about IS? Can't block people's thoughts though.
Prevent them from distributing IS propaganda pamphlets? But they're on the internet, so it's pointless.
Increase funding to have more supervision of suspects? Can't watch everyone 24/7.
Who cares? If they are distributing pamphlets, it's because they find it useful. Make it not useful, and do the same with whatever they do. Costs much less than what we spend on useless tanks and what not, and would inevitably reduce their ability to spread their bullshit as easily.
Stop looking for perfect measures.
People will propose some sort of measure that should be taken, and then people will reply that it's not perfect so it's pointless.
Ban people from positively talking about IS? Can't block people's thoughts though.
Prevent them from distributing IS propaganda pamphlets? But they're on the internet, so it's pointless.
Increase funding to have more supervision of suspects? Can't watch everyone 24/7.
Who cares? If they are distributing pamphlets, it's because they find it useful. Make it not useful, and do the same with whatever they do. Costs much less than what we spend on useless tanks and what not, and would inevitably reduce their ability to spread their bullshit as easily.
Stop looking for perfect measures.
With their ties here and option to move more easily abroad (compared to their peers) this doesn't sound like a good idea. Also, we simply dont want ISIS gaining members and inspiring others, , we should imprison them indefinitely, but handing them to IS will just come back to bite us.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
They'll kill and rape hundreds of people in Syria. There's a reason we've banned them from going there. The kid holding the gun in that picture was the saddest part of the documentary to me.
It's an unpopular opinion, but I agree with Theresa May about censoring some parts of the internet. I think website owners who host extremist Islamist content on their websites should be taken to court. You can see in the documentary how that person uploads his hate preach on YouTube and Twitter, and how it gets shared. There were other people who've never met him but knew him from social media. He's become a celebrity. And YouTube and Twitter aren't doing anything about it...
Cthuluhoop
Banned
You know what I'm tired of? People like you are the reason nothing ever happens to people who radicalise others in the hope they terrorise innocent people.
There are ways to prevent this from happening and creating new laws to stop the things you have mentioned is by far the best start.
People find comfort in thinking they have the perfect solution. If more and more people speak up and voice their solutions just maybe the government might take notice and take action.
Leave people to their own devices and don't get involved when you have nothing to contribute please.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
I think you misread his post. You guys are in agreement.
gutter_trash
Banned
I agree
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
Joke post?
RustyNails
Member
As a Muslim I do think hatemongers like Anjem Choudhary should be banned from engaging in any public speaking engagement. Not even youtube videos. He is a vile creature that would love to emigrate to ISIS if he could. The Butt guy was also a fan of Anjem Choudhary. These terrorists and terrorist enablers have been thrown out of mosques and reported to the police for their views. The Muslim community absolutely did its part...what more can anyone expect of them? It's high time the British and US media stopped giving platform to people like Anjem if the government refuses to ban their speech.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/05/london-bridge-attacker-named-as-khuram-butt
I wonder if this will make it finally sink into future would be murderers.
More than likely, the imams probably put a sign on their own forehead as an enemy. Maybe the next guy will even target them ahead of touristy places where there's likely to be lots of international citizens.
That's crazy, remember watching this a few years ago. To think he went to this length, not that surprising. The Government and police has to do something about those extremist, not saying or doing anything because it may hurt people's feeling is no longer an excuse, people's lives are on the line.
So you dont mind someone talking n supoorting isis stuff n spreading there stuff n think it shouldn't be blocked.
Im sure if someone was talking bout child porn or rape etc youd want it blocked tho
Wrestlemania
Banned
This twitter thread about Anjem Choudary and the platform he was handed by the media is pretty damning:
https://twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/871829837262061568
https://twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/871829837262061568
Fox being fox labelled hm leader of Islam in uk
Same happened with those that were arrested after the Westminster and Manchester attacks, I hate being cynical about these things but it seems like a publicity stunt everytime they make these arrests after an attack.
ReplacementPelican
Member
Why is it that the right wing are obsessed with presenting any kind of idea that Islam has a pyramid power structure á la Catholicism? I guess beyond that, the suggestion would be that Islam is monolithic in terms of denomination.
It just shows an overwhelming ignorance to something they're supposedly 'against.' Understanding that any Muslim can reasonably listen to anyone else and there's no 'Pope' equivalent to say 'cut that shit out' is part of understanding the problem.
Fuck. That's amazing and horrifying.
MisterFalcon
Member
He was the leader of an organization called that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anjem_Choudary#Islam4UK
Blaming the media is a bit deflective. If Jammy seriously wants to stop exposure of hateful assholes he should not put up clips of Jeremy Christian https://twitter.com/mrjammyjamjar3/status/869723198073569284
Theonik
Member
I mean you need to appreciate that part of the magnitude of this problem is that some of these people. (not the perpetrators of these attacks) are very smart and operate entirely within the boundaries of the law. They are usually at the top of the surveillance lists for that reason, basically anyone who they have contact with can be assumed to be radicalised in some form until proven otherwise.
Another part of the problem is that these people also know of and exploit key weaknesses in our sensationalist media driven society to promote their narratives. They are provocateurs and that makes for good television so media owners are willing to play into their hands for ratings and to promote their own agenda. Think of the Fox news 'Leader of UK Muslims' line. That is obviously intended to play into racist preconceptions Fox viewers have about Muslims. But these people use that. They weaponise hate from both sides and thrive from it. They are human garbage.
jellies_two
Member
I was complaining on the night of the attack about the way the media in the uk was so quick to monetize pictures and scary witness statements
Now it's clear that they also put him on tv as ofen as they could and didn't listen to what the community told them about how marginal he was.
What a surprise that the country that is so good at paparazzi and digging up dirt on celebs for cash would have a hand in building up the ego of one of the terrorists.
If May is going to introduce a whole lot of new rules how about reading the uk media a riot act.
GrizzleBoy
Banned
If we end up killing any and all public supporting of these extremist views on social media and such, wont we effectively be driving all support underground?
Meaning, we wont be hearing or seeing, OR REPORTING on anything we see that looks like dodgy business, because both the public AND the authorities simply wont have eyes on any of it?
It will all be conducted secretly in basements that friends, family, neighbours, any Joe public or law enforcement will have zero idea about.
Will that actually help us in the long run?
To make an arguably bad comparison.....
If weed is legal, you can spot a minor you know using fake ID in a shop to buy it and let authorities/parents know what's going on.
If weed is outlawed, chances are you're going to see that same kid purchasing or smoking. The supplier will be unreachable and they will happily sell to the minor. It will all be under cover. It will be more difficult to detect and deal with.
I hope I'm getting some kind of point across here lol.
Meaning, we wont be hearing or seeing, OR REPORTING on anything we see that looks like dodgy business, because both the public AND the authorities simply wont have eyes on any of it?
It will all be conducted secretly in basements that friends, family, neighbours, any Joe public or law enforcement will have zero idea about.
Will that actually help us in the long run?
To make an arguably bad comparison.....
If weed is legal, you can spot a minor you know using fake ID in a shop to buy it and let authorities/parents know what's going on.
If weed is outlawed, chances are you're going to see that same kid purchasing or smoking. The supplier will be unreachable and they will happily sell to the minor. It will all be under cover. It will be more difficult to detect and deal with.
I hope I'm getting some kind of point across here lol.
jellies_two
Member
As far as I know media coverage doesn't help the police do their job.
And terrorists thrive on wall to wall publicity. I mean the daily mail coverage made it to the Arabic social media within an hour. It depicted the success. It isn't like they are diamond smugglers or tax evaders the whole point is widespread media coverage.
And if the accusation further up topic is true there is a lot the uk media does to fix before driving them out of the media completely.
I don't think you can make a person stateless and I doubt you could get a country to accept them. They would just cause shit in other places which isn't good either.
It's just weird you can walk around openly supporting ISIS and face no consequences. Like, I doubt you could carry around a Nazi flag in 1940 and get away with it.
Obviously Nazi Germany was an existential threat to Britain that ISIS isn't, but they are claiming to be a state, can't supporters be treated as essentially committing treason?
Obviously Nazi Germany was an existential threat to Britain that ISIS isn't, but they are claiming to be a state, can't supporters be treated as essentially committing treason?
Roufianos
Member
ISIS would take him. Escort him there.
chromatic9
Member
Sadly more police numbers aren't going to solve a lot of cases as there's complete inaction anyway.
BrassDragon
Member
I hear your concerns but I think jihadist terrorism (at least as experienced in Europe) has some unique qualities that thrive on sensationalist publicity and the memetic spread of ideas. ISIS, in particular, needs to have a tight control of the narrative - they can not be perceived as 'losing', no matter how much territory they cede, how much resistance they inspire within their borders and how many losses from casualties and defections they suffer. It's a branding / marketing / positioning operation as much as a military campaign. As long as their brand is successful, they can absorb military losses and still attract funding and recruits from across the globe.
Some of the most successful pushback against radicalisation has been using similar strategies (like deliberately spreading testimonials of disenchanted youths telling they were treated like dirt while fighting in Syria.)
However, that's just a drop in the bucket... ultimately, if you truly want to diminish the enemy's communications strategy, you need to impede their ability to reach their audiences. Censorship and not covering certain news stories obsessively deeply offends our western sense of freedom and fairness but I see no realistic alternative if we want to win long-term. On top of that, foreign powers have weaponized fake news and social media in similar ways and the democracies of the world have yet to formulate a coherent reply to these threats.
As for diminishing the public's willingness to come forward with information/intelligence when you force extremism underground, I don't believe that's a function of publicity - the best quality intelligence is gained at a personal level, requiring community policing and outreach. An outgoing constable, committed social worker or astute teacher will do far more for your intelligence gathering than fear-driven broadcasts ever will.
CharmingCharlie
Member
Yes totally the far lefts fault, lets ignore the right wing Tories that have cut police numbers by 20,000 (to pay for tax cuts for the rich) and are quite happy to sell weapons to countries actively supporting and funding terrorists. But yeah you are totally right it is all the far lefts fault for calling people racist when they spout racist stuff.
cromofo
Member
The Left in Europe have been sticking their heads in the sand for quite some time in the recent years. Sadly, it takes innocent deaths to finally pluck peoples heads from their asses.
The Right seems to be just capitalising on anger and fear while not really doing anything useful.
What have the left been doing? In fact, which left government are we talking about exactly, given that all the major countries barring France have had right wing / centre right leaderships?
CharmingCharlie
Member
The left in the UK are not in power if they want to stick their head in the sand or up their own arses that is entirely up to them. The right wing Tories are in power and they have cut everything to the bone to pay for tax cuts, deal quite happily with states that sponsor terrorism and even do their best to shut down any discussion on the fact that they are happy to fund states that sponsor terrorism.
So yeah not quite sure how it is the far lefts fault when they aren't the ones in power.