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The Flash S2 |OT2| Jays of Future Past - Tuesdays 8/7c

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Chase17

Member
Were we short a Barry at the end? Shouldn't future Barry have been there too to stop him again or was I missing him.

Also I recall there being some hoops to jump through to travel to that exact point. Barry has leveled up.

I wonder which Wells will be the regular next season.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
Rewatching the episode and the show is really going to need some sort of Wells next year. They need the authority figure who is willing to call Barry on his idiotic shit, of which there is plenty. The team will just get their voices steamrolled by an unchecked Barry.

The implication that A future Barry knows saving his mother is a bad idea already experienced Flashpoint was sort of set let year. However to have Barry go back in time now and save his mom after accepting he can't save her and shouldn't is really fucking dumb.

^ this
 

Effect

Member
The more I think about the episode the more I don't like it. From the direction the story went, to character actions all around, and especially the ending. Even the Jay reveal and how it was ultimately handle felt off and didn't get the time it should have gotten.

Out of the four finales for DC shows lately (minus Lucifer as I still haven't watched it) that aired I think it's 2 to 2 in with Gotham and Legends both being a LOT more satisfying to me and overall being better done. I'm looking forward to their new seasons a LOT more.

Supergirl and Flash both ended up being disappointments. Supergirl I'm more forgiving of because it was season 1 and it originally wasn't suppose to have the number of episodes it had. Some of the writing in the later part of the season can likely find it's source there. That need for a cross over was sloppy to and not needed story wise. Even then I liked the direction the story was going in for the most part. It still had it's issues. I just didn't ultimately agree with what Flash was doing as a show last night and it's ending felt underwhelming. The two prior episodes were far better and better examples of what the finale should have been or the impact it should have had

The ending itself is a shock but that's all it was for me after the initially watch. I felt disappointment after it wore off. It doesn't have any staying power. Maybe because it feels like it just completely regresses the character development Barry went through the last several episodes or hell the entire season. Feels like the show is just repeating itself. Not to mention it was something beyond selfish and stupid. I don't know if I'm suppose to be upset with Barry or feel for him that he felt he was driven to do this. There is a bit of I don't care as well in there too. Overall it was just a very disappointing end to what was an otherwise really good to great lead up to the finale.
 
That was okay... It did more to make S3 possibly interesting than being a great finale. Zoom went out like a punk but hey Black Flash. JWS being Jay, shocked I am shocked! Did Jay not know Barry's last name was Allen or something? A lack of a moment between them was kind of disappointing. We finally going Flashpoint? Okay then a season later but always kinda knew it was coming, time travel fuckery could be the way we get Supergirl in this universe, merge E1 and E4 or whatever one Supergirl is and be done with it, I was expecting it with the thing Zoom was doing but, eh...
 

KonradLaw

Member
The more I think about the episode the more I don't like it. From the direction the story went, to character actions all around, and especially the ending. Even the Jay reveal and how it was ultimately handle felt off and didn't get the time it should have gotten.

Out of the four finales for DC shows lately (minus Lucifer as I still haven't watched it) that aired I think it's 2 to 2 in with Gotham and Legends both being a LOT more satisfying to me and overall being better done. I'm looking forward to their new seasons a LOT more.

Supergirl and Flash both ended up being disappointments. Supergirl I'm more forgiving of because it was season 1 and it originally wasn't suppose to have the number of episodes it had. Some of the writing in the later part of the season can likely find it's source there. That need for a cross over was sloppy to and not needed story wise. Even then I liked the direction the story was going in for the most part. It still had it's issues. I just didn't ultimately agree with what Flash was doing as a show last night and it's ending felt underwhelming. The two prior episodes were far better and better examples of what the finale should have been or the impact it should have had

The ending itself is a shock but that's all it was for me after the initially watch. I felt disappointment after it wore off. It doesn't have any staying power. Maybe because it feels like it just completely regresses the character development Barry went through the last several episodes or hell the entire season. Feels like the show is just repeating itself. Not to mention it was something beyond selfish and stupid. I don't know if I'm suppose to be upset with Barry or feel for him that he felt he was driven to do this. There is a bit of I don't care as well in there too. Overall it was just a very disappointing end to what was an otherwise really good to great lead up to the finale.

I'm catching up to Gotham now (I like to watch it couple episodes at the time), but so far it's been

Lucifer > LoT > Flash > Supergirl

as far finales go. And considering how the whole seasons went, I would be shocked if Arrow wouldn't end with better finale than Flash.

It's pretty rare for a show to get noticably worse in Season 2. Usually the quality jump is huge. I think the last time this happened was with Banshee. So I just hope Flash S3 will make as miraclous recovery as Banshee S3 did.
 

Johndoey

Banned
The implication that A future Barry knows saving his mother is a bad idea already experienced Flashpoint was sort of set let year. However to have Barry go back in time now and save his mom after accepting he can't save her and shouldn't is really fucking dumb.
Exactly he knows or should suspect this shit doesn't work.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Exactly he knows or should suspect this shit doesn't work.
It's obvious Speedforce picked up the wrong vessel in Barry. It should have struck Oliver right when he was returning from island.

Of course, then there would be no real long seasons, just a montage of villains deadbodies left behind, played to the tune or Radioactive, but the whole world would be a lot better for it ;)
 

CloudWolf

Member
Ok seriously just watched the finale

THis is going to REWRITE the entire show

Like what happens to him? Doesnt he essentially become a time remnant stuck in limbo now?

This should erase the existence of the current timeline. Im so confused

Just try not to think about it too hard. If you do you unearth a whole bunch more time travel paradoxes, like why would Barry even still need to save his mom from the Reverse Flash? Eddie's sacrifice in the end of season 1 made sure Eobard was never born, so how could he still go back to kill Barry's mom if he has never existed?
 

Effect

Member
I'm catching up to Gotham now (I like to watch it couple episodes at the time), but so far it's been

Lucifer > LoT > Flash > Supergirl

as far finales go. And considering how the whole seasons went, I would be shocked if Arrow wouldn't end with better finale than Flash.

It's pretty rare for a show to get noticably worse in Season 2. Usually the quality jump is huge. I think the last time this happened was with Banshee. So I just hope Flash S3 will make as miraclous recovery as Banshee S3 did.

Gotham > LoT > Supergirl > Flash is my current break down. Not sure where I'd place iZombie though but that finale and season would be on the positive side and likely above Legends. Won't know for sure until I watch Lucifer's finale.

I don't need shows to stick the landing perfectly just that they do to some degree. The landing can be sloppy, etc and I'm okay. I feel Flash fell on it's face hard here. Supergirl was more of it hitting the ground and ending up on a knee which I'll accept. Live action Martian Manhunter action and seeing heat vision battles that look like DBZ energy beam struggles go a long way. That and Kara and James finally getting their moment was more satisfying then Barry and Iris unfortunately. I actually was more forgiving of that finale (the two episodes) on the rewatch then I was initially. So at the moment I'd rank it above Flash.

I had no hopes for Arrow but after Flash there is a possibility it could out rank it. Tonight should be interesting.
 

Joni

Member
So.. like.. is Flash going to be its own separate universe next season? Or does this reset all four shows? I'm so confused.
There are two options: impact on the other shows but limited, so their story goes as-is but they don't know Barry, or he ends up in a separate universe for a couple of episodes. But they have started writing now for next season, so they can take feedback and take into account the Supergirl move.
 

KonradLaw

Member
So.. like.. is Flash going to be its own separate universe next season? Or does this reset all four shows? I'm so confused.

There's no way they will allow one show to shape three others. My guess is that it will get it's pwn separate continuity till the crossover, at which point the original timeline will be restored.
 

Asbel

Member
The show jumped the shark when the whole team, not just Barry, the whole freaking team agreed to give Barry's speed to Zoom. Just so the writers can do an episode with Barry in a chair getting zapped into the speed force. Character developments be damn, let's force this next cool plot idea I read in the comics into the show!

If this show and LoT weren't fun, I'd drop it like Arrow.
 
So how long until a mod starts funneling us into the DC TV thread?

Cornballer seemed to imply that wasn't happening this season? I dunno, it probably still should. Let Arrow finish and give it to two weeks.
All of the larger TV threads, including Arrow and The Flash, are getting moved to Community about two weeks after their respective finales. At that point, we'll probably end up using the DC TV thread instead of the ongoing OTs for those shows. Supergirl was a somewhat odd case because it was on CBS, but now that it's on CW as well, I don't see much of a reason to keep that discussion separated. I'll talk to a few other mods and we'll figure out a plan. If anyone has suggestions, feel free to send me a PM.
 

Mariolee

Member
Earth 2 isnt affected by the timeline change right? Fully expect Harry to come back and be like, "Barry WTF did you do" and playing the Thomas Wayne role.
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
Fixed that for you.

You almost had it, but it needs more Felicity.

Resets Arrow only this time Oliver dies in that boating accident saving Felicity's life and Felicity is now Green Arrow.

Oliver can't just die and have Felicity become Green Arrow, he has to die telling her she'd be a better Green Arrow than he ever could... hypothetically speaking.
 
Isn't that the point?

THAT'S THE POINT.

yeah that's obviously the point but Barry already had that character development already. Hell the first episode this season was him guilt tripping over opening the wormhole because he wanted to go back in time and save his mom and got Eddie and Ronnie killed in the process. Then we have him do a bunch of idiotic stuff this season then he has an awakening by the Speedforce and was supposed to get over his Mom's death. This episode just shits on all of that.

The implication that A future Barry knows saving his mother is a bad idea already experienced Flashpoint was sort of set let year. However to have Barry go back in time now and save his mom after accepting he can't save her and shouldn't is really fucking dumb.

Pretty much this
 

ZeroX03

Banned
All of the larger TV threads, including Arrow and The Flash, are getting moved to Community about two weeks after their respective finales. At that point, we'll probably end up using the DC TV thread instead of the ongoing OTs for those shows. Supergirl was a somewhat odd case because it was on CBS, but now that it's on CW as well, I don't see much of a reason to keep that discussion separated. I'll talk to a few other mods and we'll figure out a plan. If anyone has suggestions, feel free to send me a PM.

Sounds good for the Arrowverse shows at least!
 

Red Hood

Banned
A pretty underwhelming finale. It even kinda reached Arrow levels of cringy moments with the dozens of cheesy one liners. Also, superhero trope 101 "I won't kill you Zoom, but I'll let you experience excruciating pain by letting Time Wraiths suck you dry and let them take you". That's a fate bazillion times worse than a quick death.

As for the ending, Barry saying sorry made me think the Barry from the last scene was actually the Time Remnant who sacrificed himself. That would have been pretty cool. But apparently it's just the regular Barry who went back to save his mother? Kind of a pointless and irrelevant conclusion to be honest, it's a cheap way of saying "lol see you next season".
 

V_Arnold

Member
THAT'S THE POINT.

Like the show is not saying 'Barry is right.' It's put him into a borderline depressed state and had him consumed by the idea that he can save them. He's not thinking clearly. And I call bullshit on anyone here, if they could time travel, seriously shrugging off their parents deaths at the hands of supervillains as 'ah well, one of those things.'

Except that "lets save mom" was the point of the whole season.
And you know, him going to speedforce and have a chat about it as well.

This episode just destroyed any character development regarding that.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Earth 2 isnt affected by the timeline change right? Fully expect Harry to come back and be like, "Barry WTF did you do" and playing the Thomas Wayne role.

I wonder which Wells will be in S3.

Original Wells that wasn't murdered by Thawne
Earth 2 Wells
Earth 3 Wells, in a "new season, new Harry" tradition :)
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
Except that "lets save mom" was the point of the whole season.
And you know, him going to speedforce and have a chat about it as well.

This episode just destroyed any character development regarding that.

Except Barry didn't get what the Speedforce was saying at all, and assumed he would have no more tragedy. And then his Dad died. I mean through all of this, he had at least had Henry to tie him to the past. Now Henry's dead, and there's some dude from another Earth who's the spitting image of Henry but is a superhero - I think it's fair to say Barry is beyond fucked up and depressed at this point and isn't thinking as rationally as posters on a message board.

He also doesn't have the benefit of using TV Tropes to keep track of his character development during Season Two.
 
Except Barry didn't get what the Speedforce was saying at all, and assumed he would have no more tragedy. And then his Dad died. I mean through all of this, he had at least had Henry to tie him to the past. Now Henry's dead, and there's some dude from another Earth who's the spitting image of Henry but is a superhero - I think it's fair to say Barry is beyond fucked up and depressed at this point and isn't thinking as rationally as posters on a message board.

There's no indication that Barry didn't "get" what the speedforce was saying. To be fair its like he understood it very well but dropped it after his dad dies.

He also doesn't have the benefit of using TV Tropes to keep track of his character development during Season Two.

Because that's the writers job.....
 

DeathyBoy

Banned
There's no indication that Barry didn't "get" what the speedforce was saying.



Because that's the writers job.....

You mean except for the Speedforce telling Barry that tragedy is inevitable and he has to move past it... and then the next episode has Barry going 'LOL LOL LOL I'M INVINCIBLE CANNOT BE HURT HAHAHAHAHA' and when Henry dies he...

... gives up and goes to save his mother again.

Like the Speedforce was begging with him to accept her death, and death in general, and the first time he encounters death after he gets back he goes 'nope' and runs back in time.
 
You mean except for the Speedforce telling Barry that tragedy is inevitable and he has to move past it... and then the next episode has Barry going 'LOL LOL LOL I'M INVINCIBLE CANNOT BE HURT HAHAHAHAHA' and when Henry dies he...

... gives up and goes to save his mother again.

Like the Speedforce was begging with him to accept her death, and death in general, and the first time he encounters death after he gets back he goes 'nope' and runs back in time.

I think you're just going along with what the rest of the cast was thinking rather than Barry's optimistic attitude towards everything. While that was the writers intent, it made everything in the previous episode pointless.
 

Magwik

Banned
If anyrhing, this season should have been Flashpoint over the multiverse. Barry is just regressing as a character at this point at the expense of the writers needing a hook for S3. I wouldn't even be half as upset if they dedicated an extra episode this season to Barry being destroyed by Henry dying. Like if it wasn't rushed for the finale, his turmoil could have actually unfolded over an entire episode instead of 15 minutes. We never really had time to feel what he was feeling. Either Zoom should have won or Barry should have gone back in time and stopped Zooms mother from being killed. I'm glad they left the opportunity for the multiverse to exist but if Flashpoint is how they plan to merge Supergirl than they can piss off after wasting a perfectly good fucking Crisis scenario. Easily the worst kind of fanservice is where you don't actually follow through on it.
 

V_Arnold

Member
Except Barry didn't get what the Speedforce was saying at all, and assumed he would have no more tragedy. And then his Dad died. I mean through all of this, he had at least had Henry to tie him to the past. Now Henry's dead, and there's some dude from another Earth who's the spitting image of Henry but is a superhero - I think it's fair to say Barry is beyond fucked up and depressed at this point and isn't thinking as rationally as posters on a message board.

He also doesn't have the benefit of using TV Tropes to keep track of his character development during Season Two.

Alright. Perhaps I am not very clear with this, but my problem is not Barry's irrationality (although that can hurt too, but not to the point of me actively not enjoying the show, opposed to S1 finale which properly made me cry, easily).

My problem is that the show's writers write ALL characters as dumb as physically possible.
Just look at what they did.

"Lets go against Zoom"
"Lets lock up barry"
"Oh barry, you cant fight for revenge, it wont work (it did)"
"Oh sorry for locking you up, buT WE ARE FULLY SUPPORTING YOU THOUGH"

Either EVERYONE is fully irrational or the writers could not come up with any proper finale for this season. Let me reiterate: In Arrow S3, Laurel's all problems were NOT the focal points of the show, and YET people did not tolerate her failings (which I did. It was a good character Arc). What they did to Barry now is the equivalent of letting Laurel go back to alcoholism before approving on Olicity and
then dying
. Oh, and also that being the *main* point of the show - since Flash's main hero should be Barry.

Flash used to be clever in ways that was surprising. This episode shows that it is not clever anymore. Simple as that. And yeah, that is very painful. Like with modern Doctor Who episodes, the solutions (time remnant usage, for example) are not earned honestly, they just come to save the day. Oh, and Barry, you shall not kill? Because...comic book rules? Oh, luckily the Wraiths are just popping in to kill for you. That is good, we can now all sleep at night.

Flash S1 was MUCH more clever than this.

If anyrhing, this season should have been Flashpoint over the multiverse. Barry is just regressing as a character at this point at the expense of the writers needing a hook for S3. I wouldn't even be half as upset if they dedicated an extra episode this season to Barry being destroyed by Henry dying. Like if it wasn't rushed for the finale, his turmoil could have actually unfolded over an entire episode instead of 15 minutes. We never really had time to feel what he was feeling. Either Zoom should have won or Barry should have gone back in time and stopped Zooms mother from being killed. I'm glad they left the opportunity for the multiverse to exist but if Flashpoint is how they plan to merge Supergirl than they can piss off after wasting a perfectly good fucking Crisis scenario. Easily the worst kind of fanservice is where you don't actually follow through on it.

Exactly.
 

Joni

Member
All of the larger TV threads, including Arrow and The Flash, are getting moved to Community about two weeks after their respective finales. At that point, we'll probably end up using the DC TV thread instead of the ongoing OTs for those shows. Supergirl was a somewhat odd case because it was on CBS, but now that it's on CW as well, I don't see much of a reason to keep that discussion separated. I'll talk to a few other mods and we'll figure out a plan. If anyone has suggestions, feel free to send me a PM.

Also important, last year we were at 20K for both Arrow and Flash. Both topics could now also be used. ALthough I prefer the DC TV thread.
 

TI82

Banned
Mid season finale is probably him returning to original plot. But then the final half involves the new black flash
 

morningbus

Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Also important, last year we were at 20K for both Arrow and Flash. Both topics could now also be used. ALthough I prefer the DC TV thread.

The only thing I have against the DCTV thread is that it's trying to join together somewhat disparate people and tastes.

People who are watching Gotham or Lucifer but not Flash, for example, probably have a reason and vice versa. At best, they're not going to be interested in whatever is happening in the off season of the show and, at worst, it's going to cause a lot of bickering with people crapping on each other's shows.

An Arrowverse thread makes sense to me because it's all related. It probably wouldn't stop the daily shitting on Arrow, but you'd at least not have superfluous people doing it, too.
 

ZeroX03

Banned
Mid season finale is probably him returning to original plot. But then the final half involves the new black flash

No more villainous speedsters thanks.

The only thing I have against the DCTV thread is that it's trying to join together somewhat disparate people and tastes.

People who are watching Gotham or Lucifer but not Flash, for example, probably have a reason and vice versa. At best, they're not going to be interested in whatever is happening in the off season of the show and, at worst, it's going to cause a lot of bickering with people crapping on each other's shows.

An Arrowverse thread makes sense to me because it's all related. It probably wouldn't stop the daily shitting on Arrow, but you'd at least not have superfluous people doing it, too.

Yeah the non-Arrowverse stuff is iffy. I get that iZombie is in there because it's CW and not many people are discussing it anyway, but the other network shows could probably be separate.
 

GulAtiCa

Member
Yeah, a CW only thread of the DC shows might be better.

The DC thread last year worked well actually. It was really mellow. I don't think we have to worry about people bickering and not into other shows they don't like, didn't really occur that much last year in the summer thread. Anyone that is generally sick of the show(s) likely won't stick around too much in the summer thread anyways. Esp with no new episodes or stuff.
 

Lashley

Why does he wear the mask!?
I loved that.

Knew who the man in the iron mask would be, but was still hyped.

That ending - WOW

Wonder what next season will bring? Time Wraiths as the villains?
 

Irobot82

Member
Great interview on TVLine. Spoilers in it for those who haven't watched the finale.


Black Flash confirmed and it sounds like we may get some Jay Garrick vs. Black Flash action in season three.
 

Cafeman

Member
The finale - not terrible, but few surprises. Barry's actions, Zoom's character and plans and motivations, and the final scene, have all collectively dampened my love of this show.

I don't like the overuse of time remnants, for one. Where and how are Barry and Zoom finding these time remnants of themselves?? The final scene's once-again return to Barry's mother's death show one time remnant situation , however.

Contradictions. I see them in season 2, too much. Zoom's character changed between early season and after the Jay reveal. Barry's speedforce trip was seemingly nullified 2 eps later in this finale, with Henry's death.

Frankly, I'm tired of all the paradoxes, time travel, time remnants, and even Earth-2 multiverse trips. Can't we have The Flash with criminals, rogues' gallery, and relationships all occurring mostly in Central City? I thought season 3 would be a great opportunity to update us on Grodd (maybe it will!), but the writers are going back to the well AGAIN with the Flashpoint Paradox story involving his mother's death - they've already borrowed plenty of concepts from Flashpoint, and now we have to sit through a literal version of it? I hope not.

Jay Garrick being Shipp was kind of great, but I'd already expected that. What would have been even better would be if Henry hadn't been killed, and if they'd have freed Garrick earlier and he and Barry joined together to defeat Zoom.

Not to be debbie downer here, but the spark has been extinguished for me, for now.
 

morningbus

Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Yeah, a CW only thread of the DC shows might be better.

The DC thread last year worked well actually. It was really mellow. I don't think we have to worry about people bickering and not into other shows they don't like, didn't really occur that much last year in the summer thread. Anyone that is generally sick of the show(s) likely won't stick around too much in the summer thread anyways. Esp with no new episodes or stuff.

There was a little bit last year from what I remember (obviously nothing too huge to need intervention from a mod or anything), but I think this year has the potential to be worse as Gotham fans are riding high off a season they feel was the strongest out of all the DCTV shows.

I mean, just farting in the wind here, because I think we're probably just going to do the massive summer thread again.
 
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