It's actually really hard to tell when ASW is on in a lot of cases. There are artifacts that it can cause because it is actually inserting visual information here that is missing between frames - so when it creates information that turns out to be incorrect based on the interpolation it used between two frames you can tell when that occurs - but in general it is sort of amazing compared to ATW by itself. In a game like Project CARS where ASW artifacts are not really a factor (all of the motion is very predictable and the interpolation has very little opportunity to get it wrong here) it basically allows the game to feel like 90 FPS in pretty much all respects so long as you are making at least 45 actual FPS.
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The High-end VR Discussion Thread (HTC Vive, Oculus Rift, Playstation VR)
- Thread starter Cartman86
- Start date
It's actually really hard to tell when ASW is on in a lot of cases. There are artifacts that it can cause because it is actually inserting visual information here that is missing between frames - so when it creates information that turns out to be incorrect based on the interpolation it used between two frames you can tell when that occurs - but in general it is sort of amazing compared to ATW by itself. In a game like Project CARS where ASW artifacts are not really a factor (all of the motion is very predictable and the interpolation has very little opportunity to get it wrong here) it basically allows the game to feel like 90 FPS in pretty much all respects so long as you are making at least 45 actual FPS.
Zalusithix
Member
Looks like UE 4.14 was released today with official forward rendering support among other VR related improvements. Hopefully we will stop seeing deferred rendered VR games now as UE4 was the primary culprit for that problem.
Looks like Google is going out of their way to restrict Google Earth VR to the Vive. See comments here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/5d9xl0/google_earth_vr_revealed_releasing_for_free_today/
Even Rift users that have access to Touch are unable to launch the app.
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/5d9xl0/google_earth_vr_revealed_releasing_for_free_today/
Even Rift users that have access to Touch are unable to launch the app.
Zalusithix
Member
My guess is that there's a native Rift version waiting for the official Touch launch. Still odd for them to do.
Woohoo!
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Teknopathetic
Member
Note: That is very much the author's conclusion and not anything the team said.
"In practice, I don't ever see it happening."
It utilizes motion controls heavily, so I guess that's why they put a hardware restriction on it (that I'm sure someone will bypass by the end of the week). Even if Google were to buy HTC, I don't see them restricting software to their hardware. This is Google we're talking about, they want that data from *everybody*.
"In practice, I don't ever see it happening."
It utilizes motion controls heavily, so I guess that's why they put a hardware restriction on it (that I'm sure someone will bypass by the end of the week). Even if Google were to buy HTC, I don't see them restricting software to their hardware. This is Google we're talking about, they want that data from *everybody*.
The Lamonster
Member
Chances that Audioshield (Vive exclusive?) will ever come to PSVR?
What about Child of Eden (360/PS3 Rez sequel)?
What about Child of Eden (360/PS3 Rez sequel)?
Notice how it says "oculus platform". I read that as "oculus runtime/store"
That is completely different than allowing the steamvr version to work with the rift
Zalusithix
Member
There's nothing stopping Audioshield from coming to PSVR other than the dev possibly not caring enough to do it. They're not exactly the most active VR dev; there's barely any updates to Audioshield when compared to most high profile VR games. It kind of sucks because I rather like the game itself.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Wowfunhappy
Member
This is ridiculous and sets a bad precedent.
I hope someone creates a workaround soon, even if just for the symbolism of it.
Zalusithix
Member
It doesn't really set a bad precedent. Oculus gets credit for being first to the table with a hardware DRM headset check. Google's just, for some bizarre reason, pulling a page from Oculus' (now discarded?) book.
Wowfunhappy
Member
Except the Oculus DRM check got bypassed and rendered moot. Which is why I hope the same happens again.
Aaaand there we go! Yay!
mitchman
Gold Member
Google have a long history of creating artificial blocks for no good reason at all, so this is not a surprise. For instance, google docs throws up warnings or blocks competing Chromium-based browsers for no reason other than Google just being Google (and if you don't see this warning in a chromium-based browser that is not Chrome, it's because other browsers patch the js to work around this).
Nice!
Grinchy
Banned
PSVR has some really fantastic sitting experiences, but the standing games make me wish I had a Vive. For anyone who has tried Vive and not PSVR, imagine playing Job Simulator, but your virtual hands are both moving back and forth an inch or so, and every time you lean down to grab something, the whole world wobbles on you.
It is so incredibly jarring. You can't just turn your brain off and get into the game like you can on Vive because you have to be constantly thinking about the PS4 camera's cone of vision. Don't try to reach out and grab that robot's glasses because your hand is 2 inches out of view of the cone and you won't be able to.
Stand further back to get more play space and now your hands and vision wobble even more. Spend hours testing various lighting conditions, heights, distances, ect, and it never quite works properly. It's incredibly frustrating and it gives me serious doubts about any standing games on PSVR.
It is so incredibly jarring. You can't just turn your brain off and get into the game like you can on Vive because you have to be constantly thinking about the PS4 camera's cone of vision. Don't try to reach out and grab that robot's glasses because your hand is 2 inches out of view of the cone and you won't be able to.
Stand further back to get more play space and now your hands and vision wobble even more. Spend hours testing various lighting conditions, heights, distances, ect, and it never quite works properly. It's incredibly frustrating and it gives me serious doubts about any standing games on PSVR.
That's exactly what I expected from single-camera optical tracking. Actually a bit worse, the way you put it.
But people said I was being a fanboy and not looking at the technology objectively
Grinchy
Banned
That's exactly what I expected from single-camera optical tracking. Actually a bit worse, the way you put it.
But people said I was being a fanboy and not looking at the technology objectively
Shocking! Yeah, the reddit PSVR sub and the PSVR thread here are pretty difficult places to have honest discussions of PSVR, in my experience.
My hopes that Sony can improve tracking through software updates wanes every day.
first off, agree PSVR's weak link is definitely tracking.
There are a number of issues:
* Drift: due to gyros I think, affects some users (not me), I think due to variability of gyros, could probably be fixed with software update to calibrate when first switched on, affected users should return HW
* World wobble: if you look around the world moves: transitory issue, I think due to corrupt tracking data, may persistently affect users with environmental tracking issues, can be corrected by switching off HMD or restart PS4, I've had it like 5 times in a month
* Near object wobble: seems to affect specific games: Batman VR and London Heist, there is a bit in IW:JA VR Demo but only right at the start when you are first in the hanger and only apparent inspecting cockpit details to the side
Most of my games, apart from the two I've mentioned, don't suffer from near object wobble. Also Batman was patched and tracking was one of the patches and since near object wobble appears basically fixed or just really slight (haven't played it much).
I think near object wobble is caused by the system not being able to measure depth (Z-axis) precisely enough, and I think this is most apparent on nearby objects. It may be that some games filter/smooth this? or that accurate depth tracking is expensive or gets more expensive according to near geometry complexity and that some devs sacrifice that for world complexity or visual fidelity.
Anyway, my two-penneth worth
Zalusithix
Member
That's exactly what I expected from single-camera optical tracking. Actually a bit worse, the way you put it.
But people said I was being a fanboy and not looking at the technology objectively
What people are describing is far worse than I would have expected. I mean, I totally expected the Moves to be less than stellar, and for the tracking volume to be restricting, but the headset drift and instability on the z axis? That's just flabbergasting to me. It doesn't seem to affect everybody, but the fact that exists at all for anybody is just... That should have been 100% rock solid for everybody not playing next to a mirror.
I'm finding the Move's to be rock solid apart from the odd occlusion event, exceeded my expectations.
The HMD tracking is the main issue, but for most of what I play its very good as well, but the issues are there and its the one area PSVR underperformed for me.
I think Sony should release a Tracking diagnostics tool so that people can at least get their environments setup to a good level.
I'd be interested in more information on near world wobble / z-axis instability, Dev input in particular
The depth accuracy issue / explanation you propose does make sense, that's one of the things which is certainly far easier to get accurate with the lighthouse triangulation, and still probably a lot easier if you have a constellation pattern to track rather than just a few lights.
Yes, I should have explained what I meant more thoroughly. It's what I expected for Move, and worse than that for the HMD itself.
Grinchy
Banned
The drift seems to definitely be because of the gyros. It's especially noticeable in cinema mode. I can't even go back to the OS and use it for more than a minute or two before it has drifted inches to the left on me. I could see that being fixed, but it's the thing I mind the least about PSVR.
The world wobble issue is an interesting one. I can pretty consistently replicate it in a game like RIGS. If the camera isn't insanely close, I see world wobble every time. I can move the camera back further away while in-game and the wobble becomes clear. I can then move the camera right back in place 2.5-3 feet away from my head and it goes completely away. It's amazing to me how close the camera has to be to eliminate the world wobble in games like RIGS and Battlezone. It's not feasible for regular users who don't use mic stands. Most people are just going to stick the camera on their TV ~6 feet away and I can't even imagine how awful their experience is as a result.
I've tested this on 2 base PS4s and a Pro, with 2 different headsets and with the old and new cameras. I can replicate the same issues in all instances. Both headsets have the same cinema drift as well.
I definitely think PSVR has massive issues with depth perception. It's more surprising to me than it seems to be to others in here because the Move controllers alone on a PS3 back in 2010 appeared to track beautifully for me. Tumble is a good example of a game that played flawlessly 6 years ago and has massive near object wobble now. That's what gives me some hope that they will fix tracking to some degree via software.
Superkamikaze
Member
I just got the 1.10 (ASW) update for the Rift last night, but haven't had a chance to try it yet. A little concerned as there are reports on Reddit that ASW is causing issues for higher spec'd cards like 1080's in Obduction and Elite Dangerous, where as before there weren't issues. I have an i5-3570k and a 1080, didn't have any issues before the ASW update, so curious if I notice anything.
GoldenCrow
Member
This is still extremely situational I usually sit about 2 meters away from the camera and have never experienced world wobble except for when sunlight was directly hitting the lens of the camera. I can replicate the drifting people get by sitting just on the edge of the play area but anything within that is pretty much perfect.
My experience has been mostly solid, I'd say it is extremely rare or something directly interfering with the tracking system if I do get these problems. I'd have preferred a better tracking system and second camera though.
mckmas8808
Banned
Because it's not like all of us are honestly having the same issues that you are. We can only speak on the experiences that we are having.
I stood up for the whole Batman VR experience and didn't have many problems at all. 90% of the time everything ran perfectly.
Grinchy
Banned
Is that the only standing game you've played? It seems like that game might mask the issues better than others. Do you have Job Simulator? If you tell me that Job Simulator is rock-solid for you, then I will think about buying your magic PSVR off of you for twice what it costs.
My good friend bought a PSVR after trying it at my place and he kept telling me he had no tracking issues, too. We were playing RIGS one night and I told him to lean in and to the side and look at the railing at the headquarters. He noticed the wobble immediately after that and now he notices it in other games. I have a sneaking suspicion that the people who have "no tracking problems" don't even know that they do. And that's great. I wish I didn't notice them.
GoldenCrow
Member
It's hard not to notice world wobble or drifting when it does happen. I haven't played Job Simulator or the full version of Rigs but out of all the games and demos I have played tracking problems are exceedingly rare on my end. I have found if you look for the seams you will find them but if you stay within the standard constraints they rarely appear.
This Paperboy knockoff is coming for Vive and Touch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RpHwpjVasQ
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/5dvb1h/special_delivery_early_alpha_oculus_touch/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RpHwpjVasQ
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/5dvb1h/special_delivery_early_alpha_oculus_touch/
UploadVR posted an article about tracking volumes:
http://uploadvr.com/oculus-guides-show-smaller-multi-sensor-tracked-spaces-htc-vive/
It seems like even with 3 cameras, you need a significantly larger space to get the same play area as you would with lighthouses, with a significantly smaller maximum too. For a higher price.
It's pretty much what could be expected given the sensor FoV and overall technological limitations, but it still drives the point home of just how far ahead of the curve lighthouse tracking was (and still is).
http://uploadvr.com/oculus-guides-show-smaller-multi-sensor-tracked-spaces-htc-vive/
It seems like even with 3 cameras, you need a significantly larger space to get the same play area as you would with lighthouses, with a significantly smaller maximum too. For a higher price.
It's pretty much what could be expected given the sensor FoV and overall technological limitations, but it still drives the point home of just how far ahead of the curve lighthouse tracking was (and still is).
I have this on my wishlist as a curio as I sometimes get some $ vouchers.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HDUVIZ0/?tag=neogaf0e-20
OSVR for $299 now.
How compatible for just about anything this is, I cannot say. Part of me would love to have this to use with Elite Dangerous... but this unit is very much in devkit tinker status.
EDIT:
OSVR on Steam:
http://www.osvr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=5698#p5698
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HDUVIZ0/?tag=neogaf0e-20
OSVR for $299 now.
How compatible for just about anything this is, I cannot say. Part of me would love to have this to use with Elite Dangerous... but this unit is very much in devkit tinker status.
EDIT:
OSVR on Steam:
http://www.osvr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&p=5698#p5698
DudeWithNoName
Member
Holy shit I played Paperboy in the arcade all the time back in the day! I'm sooooo buying this.This Paperboy knockoff is coming for Vive and Touch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RpHwpjVasQ
https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/5dvb1h/special_delivery_early_alpha_oculus_touch/
That said, is there a place where I can see a concise list of Vive games and ratings/opinions?
Zalusithix
Member
On the bright side, the minimum sensor distance requirement isn't as big of a deal as it seems at first glance when it comes to maximizing use of a space that's within the Rift's limits. You really want a chaperone buffer zone around your walls and whatnot, so not being able to go right up to the sensor location isn't that big of an issue. Basically the Rift bakes it's chaperone into the design; you'll lose tracking before you can hit a wall!
However, the smaller total play area - even with 3 sensors - is a strike against it. Assuming their numbers aren't overly conservative, you're basically talking half the square footage of usable space at recommended sizes. Then again, the Rift's headset cable is 1m shorter than the Vive's, and it has to go to the back of the PC which further shrinks its effective range.
Zalusithix
Member
Read the article being discussed?
I'm not sure I fully agree with this. My setup is probably somewhat rare (separate VR room and all), but my chaperone bounds are exactly at the physical walls of the room:On the bright side, the minimum sensor distance requirement isn't as big of a deal as it seems at first glance when it comes to maximizing use of a space that's within the Rift's limits. You really want a chaperone buffer zone around your walls and whatnot, so not being able to go right up to the sensor location isn't that big of an issue. Basically the Rift bakes it's chaperone into the design; you'll lose tracking before you can hit a wall!
If the FoV of the lighthouses was smaller I'd have a massively reduced play space. (Since there's no option to position them any further out)
mckmas8808
Banned
Yeah I tried Job Simulator and the wobble was the worse I've ever seen it.
Zalusithix
Member
Sure, if you use the real walls/objects as the chaperone bounds, your space will be restricted. I'm not sure how many people actually do that vs leaving a buffer space though. I guess it depends how many times they've smacked things with the controller or had guests do it.
I won't argue that the limitations imposed by the FoV aren't real - just that they're not as bad as they seem at first glance. That said, even my setup would be restricted in size by the Rift's cameras FOV in one dimension. This without even having physical walls, but due to height differences on the ceiling with support beams.I wouldn't be able to mount to the other side of the beam, so I'd lose at minimum about a foot from that side. Realistically it'd be even more as occlusion from furniture would increase as I compensated for the FoV in the other dimensions.
Steam Store list sorted by review score. The top 25 are must haves. When you have time to dig deeper, there are ~400 games with at least an 80% score.
I think that's also a question of when you set the bounds to pop up.
In any case, having people walk up to the chaperone bounds and "touch" them is one of my favourite parts of the standard VR demonstration
TAJ
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Drift in cinema mode on PSVR is pretty nasty, but I'd played almost everything on the platform and not run into drift in a game until this week.
Pinball FX2 has very noticeable drift for me. The devs must know that their game has a problem because they mapped recentering to a face button.
Pinball FX2 has very noticeable drift for me. The devs must know that their game has a problem because they mapped recentering to a face button.
I think that's also a question of when you set the bounds to pop up.
In any case, having people walk up to the chaperone bounds and "touch" them is one of my favourite parts of the standard VR demonstration
Yeah, I have that in my pre-demo-playlist walkthrough, when I'm trying to get people accustomed to moving around. Having them reach out and "touch" the bounds always gets a gasp out of them.
Grinchy
Banned
I'd be very curious to find out what your experience with Holoball is like if you ever buy it. It's unfortunately unplayable for me but others say they can go an hour or longer. The tracking breaks for me in less than 10 minutes.