Although I agree that piracy is wrong (and especially when it comes to games), I really don't think that The Witness would've sold better at this point in time if piracy didn't exist. Most of the people pirating the game are the people that wouldn't pay 40$ for the game to begin with. The argument shouldn't be 'piracy is ruining my business', it should be 'the perception that my game isn't worth 40$ is ruining my business'. And it's a shame, because it's an awesome game.
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The Witness is being heavily pirated. J. Blow says piracy could impact his future.
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TheOohChild
Member
Yes, some people just want to demo the game and some cannot afford the game. But I imagine the majority of the pirates are just thieving cunts.
I do wonder what was behind Blow's decision to release the game with (presumably) very few if any anti-piracy measures?
I can only see that as a decision to hurt yourself. You're going to have more piracy for a $40 game than a $10 one if none of the other factors differ. It's not a wise decision unless you're willing to tank the damage piracy will do to sales on principle.
I can only see that as a decision to hurt yourself. You're going to have more piracy for a $40 game than a $10 one if none of the other factors differ. It's not a wise decision unless you're willing to tank the damage piracy will do to sales on principle.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
I'm going to wait for the inevitable free PSN Plus version in 6-12 months. Every digital game I have ever wanted has ended up free. I want this game and will wait.
OnionPowder
Member
$40 is a natural step for AA development. A lot of AAA games are asking for $100 or more with the base game and the season pass.
I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you
GlamFM
Banned
So.
Can I pirate the game? I mean it's not like dev is losing money. If I really want to play the game and there are easy way to obtain it for free, why the hell not?
It's not like I will buy the game in the first place right?
I mean, it's ok in neogaf. We should absolutely encourage the behavior. let's make thread to show off how much pirated stuff we accumulate and how much money we saved over the years.
Can I pirate the game? I mean it's not like dev is losing money. If I really want to play the game and there are easy way to obtain it for free, why the hell not?
It's not like I will buy the game in the first place right?
I mean, it's ok in neogaf. We should absolutely encourage the behavior. let's make thread to show off how much pirated stuff we accumulate and how much money we saved over the years.
Exactly... Pirates weren't going to buy your game even if it had something like .
Pirates didn't affect the public love for drm free gog galaxy
And drm free witcher 3 great sales numbers
Yeah. I realize it's hard to quantify what a game "should cost" based on content, but I feel what wasn't done was to present the game in a way that makes it clear that it's NOT just another short indie game. When someone says "puzzle game" and "100 hours", I immediately fly to the conclusion of "Yeah, but that's probably some completionist BS that I know won't apply to me... it's not going to be a 100 hour game for the average player." and I still think that's probably a correct assumption.
That said, I think maybe they (someone) could have done a better job making sure the vibe given off from trailers/marketing/whatever was that the game was quite substantial. I realize it's probably hard to show "substantial" when it's a game solely based on puzzles, but that's a difficult task that you should probably work through IF you're making a substantial game about puzzles...
That said, I'm not defending/condoning piracy, but if others are attributing the game's price to increased piracy, I do think the price of the game made me do a double take... thankfully, review scores are solid, otherwise I would have written it off completely. As it stands, for me, it's probably in the "wait for a sale" category.
The problem is a demo for this type of game would be extremely hard to do where it shows off the game well and also doesn't spoil the experience. Having for example the intro area as a demo would leave a bad taste for most everyone playing it as its extremely simple, but its also the only area you could really isolate to make into a demo experience since the game is completely open. I think the only way you could make a good and proper demo is if you made it like The Stanley Parable did, but then you'd have to build something completely new.
It's his content. It's not your place to decide what he should charge for it.
His finances are not a justification to steal his content.
I think in general piracy affects nearly all PC games to some degree. The exception would be games using Denuvo right now.
With that said there are still plenty of PC games that are profitable. If The Witness fails to reach its sales target I'd suggest that something outside of piracy would be the main reason for that. The style of game or price point would be the first things I'd look at.
While I have no interest in pirating the game I also have no interest in buying the game for $44 CAD. No way am I alone in thinking this. They have the right to charge whatever they want but I also have the right to not be interested at this price point.
With that said there are still plenty of PC games that are profitable. If The Witness fails to reach its sales target I'd suggest that something outside of piracy would be the main reason for that. The style of game or price point would be the first things I'd look at.
While I have no interest in pirating the game I also have no interest in buying the game for $44 CAD. No way am I alone in thinking this. They have the right to charge whatever they want but I also have the right to not be interested at this price point.
Burger
Member
Calm down.
It's well known that game demos these days are few and far between. I'm not even trying to suggest that pirates do what they do to 'demo' games. But in regards to The Witness and the type of game it is, I'm willing to make some exception.
Great reviews, strong emphasis on puzzles, I can understand why some people think "$40? Hmm maybe I'll just torrent it and see what it's like." I'm sure many people try it, and drop it. I'm sure many play it for 10+ hours and drop it. I'm sure many complete it, but by then the chances of that last group going and purchasing the game are gone. $40 gets you a fair bit of stuff.
Steam Refunds are not Game Demos.
That's fine and of course people can choose to not but it, but it certainly doesn't justify pirating it.
Having said that I'm sure Blow knew this would happen. It happens to every sizeable release.
Lanrutcon
Member
What I'm noticing from a lot of informal reviews that there's also a misconception as to the nature of the game: a lot of folks expected a Myst-like experience, and it's not similar enough. I'm kind of hoping a few popular streamers maybe give it a try and boost sales that way, as it'll showcase exactly what the game's strengths are.
That's terrible logic. If you can't easily afford a luxury, never get a luxury! That's literally not how you make money. If you're out to make money, make it accessible even to the people that can't "easily" afford a game.
And I mean... What isn't there to demo? The Witness is a pretty segmented game to begin with, especially at the beginning. You could easily show off some of the more complex puzzles but only give the player access to a small handful of pre-existing areas.
entremet
Member
But wouldn't a niche game just be ignored by pirates?
YianGaruga
Banned
Every game is getting pirated, that alone doesn't decide on success or failure.
IF his game isn't selling well enough and doesn't make enough money as a result, that's influenced by a ton of factors, many of which are/were directly under his control.
But I'm sure the game will do well enough over time. This isn't AAA where the first week decides everything.
I don't think his tweet was even as serious as that article and this thread are making it sound.
IF his game isn't selling well enough and doesn't make enough money as a result, that's influenced by a ton of factors, many of which are/were directly under his control.
But I'm sure the game will do well enough over time. This isn't AAA where the first week decides everything.
I don't think his tweet was even as serious as that article and this thread are making it sound.
Green Yoshi
Member
I have no problem with spending 40$ for the retail version, but for a download game it's quite expensive. Wouldn't buy a AAA-title for 40$, too. You don't own the game, so you can't sell it if you don't like it.
Piracy is theft so I hope there will be consequences for the thieves.
Or more apt, how delaying a PC version would increase PS4 sales. The percentage of pirated copies on PC that could have potentially been PC sales is up for debate. I'm of the mind that piracy is a way of life for a certain audience. They pirate everything, even software they have little intention of using. But maybe I'm wrong and pirates do represent a huge audience of paying customers if only the DRM, or price point, or localization, or whatever, was done right.
But, making the game console exclusive? Would eliminating the potential for legitimate PC sales improve sales on the PS4? I've no doubt there's an audience on PS4 that would buy Witness solely because it's a Sony exclusive. I've little doubt that audience is much smaller than the would be PC customers who turn to piracy for whatever reason. Witness might have gained a few sales by firmly planting a flag in the Sony ecosystem, but there's no way that would offset the sales lost by not being on Steam and GOG and the PC in general.
Now, if Sony had given him a few million bucks for that exclusivity...
geordiemp
Member
Its like owning a stall and not being there, hoping that people leave the right money for items they want.
Yes, there are allot of good people, but there are allot of people that will take things for nothing.
Thats life, you have to deal with it, either man the stall (DRM) or have a high security shop (console)
Everything gets pirated.
If The Witness' sales numbers are indeed troubling, then I doubt piracy is the actual reason for it. People who blame piracy for their lack of success usually ignore the root of their problem, which might be that their title isn't as appealing to the market as they hoped or it's priced higher than what the market is willing to pay. Everyone suffers from piracy, after all, and it's not a good indicator for "this would have sold so much more if people didn't pirate it". It's an indicator for general interest, but you can't calculate a number of how many people would have been interested enough to buy a game otherwise.
Pricing discussion is a bit iffy - I haven't played it yet, but I'm sure The Witness is a great game well worth its price tag -, but in the end the simple principle remains: The market dictates the price. Whether or not a lot of people think of a game as worth buying is ultimately not entirely dependent on its quality and as such it's kinda silly to judge people as "good" or "bad" depending on whether or not they think The Witness is overpriced.
IF sales are underwhelming - and Blow's tweets honestly don't sound half as alarming as the article reporting them - I'd think that it has less to do with Witness being Indie or not and more with people being unsure whether or not a content-rich, 40 hours pure puzzle game will be able to hold their attention for long enough. Might be one of the rare cases where a game offers too much content for its own good.
But again, it's if sales are indeed underwhelming, which remains to be seen.
Pricing discussion is a bit iffy - I haven't played it yet, but I'm sure The Witness is a great game well worth its price tag -, but in the end the simple principle remains: The market dictates the price. Whether or not a lot of people think of a game as worth buying is ultimately not entirely dependent on its quality and as such it's kinda silly to judge people as "good" or "bad" depending on whether or not they think The Witness is overpriced.
IF sales are underwhelming - and Blow's tweets honestly don't sound half as alarming as the article reporting them - I'd think that it has less to do with Witness being Indie or not and more with people being unsure whether or not a content-rich, 40 hours pure puzzle game will be able to hold their attention for long enough. Might be one of the rare cases where a game offers too much content for its own good.
But again, it's if sales are indeed underwhelming, which remains to be seen.
He spent all the money from Braid (and more) making The Witness.
Demoskinos
Member
No he doesn't. Those people wouldn't have bought it anyways. No condoning piracy at all but equating the amount of copies pirated to lost sales is a farce. The RIAA tried to tout this claim around for years on behalf of the music industry and its just not true.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Its kinda strange, especailly as it has been proven time and time again that piracy is more of a digital hordism and nothing that translates to anything like normal consumer behaviour.
If you think Piracy is a lost sale, you are being willfully tone-deaf and allowing a moral objection cloud understanding of the available data.
Tesseract
Banned
what the heck are you talking about
Unreasonable why exactly? It is the top-level presentation of the game that it appears to be a line puzzle game? Is it something else? Also, greedy is definitely a word I'd avoid. I don't think the price point comes from a point of greed for any indie developer.
lukeskymac
Member
Where I live, $40 is almost one fifth of a minimum wage. Not saying $20 or $30 would have been a better deal for Blow, though.
He reinvested a lot of that Braid money, at great personal risk, back into making The Witness. In an era where people are hedging such risks with crowdfunding, it's a shame Johnathan Blow is being punished in such a manner if piracy is really taking a noticeable chunk.
If the people pirating the game had no choice but to buy it, that'd translate to more sales. It may not be exact, but piracy does lead to less sales overall. It's a loss of revenue no matter the medium.
Arguing that piracy will exist no matter what is not a good argument. It's still wrong.
This.
Then again the prevailing sentiment seems to be that $40 is too much for a puzzle game, regardless of how pretty it is.
it doesn't justify it, but it can partially explain it, I think that's what some people are trying to say
it's just not a 1 to 1 causation, there's more to it
Puzzle games are not a niche type of game.
It seems your stingy and probably out of touch with reality, To say no game is worth 40 dollars is absolutely insane.
First, let me say I think there should be a demo.
Second, let me say - as someone who has played the game, and also as someone imagining what it must have been like to develop this game as a creative vision - I think a demo would have made the game worse, or led people to understand the game in a limited way.
This game really never stops expanding. Yes, it's a puzzle game, but it's a constant evolution of "holy shit, what?" moments. Your understanding of the game and what is possible in the world grows exponentially over time. A demo would only give you the slow growth at the start of the game.
It's really a shame it works out this way because accessibility is important.
Second, let me say - as someone who has played the game, and also as someone imagining what it must have been like to develop this game as a creative vision - I think a demo would have made the game worse, or led people to understand the game in a limited way.
This game really never stops expanding. Yes, it's a puzzle game, but it's a constant evolution of "holy shit, what?" moments. Your understanding of the game and what is possible in the world grows exponentially over time. A demo would only give you the slow growth at the start of the game.
It's really a shame it works out this way because accessibility is important.
I agree with you but to be clear it's not an interview, just a drive by article framed around a couple of tweets and no additional context.
Not really. It'd be an extremely easy thing to demo. You slice out a few areas that you think are good examples of how the puzzle solving works, you give players access to that. Don't have it just be the intro area--absolutely not, but some of the areas close to the intro would be pretty ideal for this.
And then if someone decides to buy the full version of the game, they can go, "Oh! I've already solved this bit. Easy!" and move on. They still learnt the lessons from how to solve those puzzles, they've still had the experience themselves.
GatticusFinch
Member
Not only that, but people had the same response to Braid being $20. People were pissed over $5 and he dropped the price THE NEXT DAY:
http://kotaku.com/5156047/jonathan-blow-lowers-price-on-pc-braid
I'm sure he saw this coming.
$40 for a 50+ hour game is not pricing yourself out of the market.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
they aren't, but the notion that pirates dont have options is silly.
and these are things you can see in a video, like the Giant Bomb quick look for example. and yeah, lots of folks would tell you that if you cant afford a luxury, then do not get one until you can. That's common sense, youre not entitled to luxuries after all.
Arthr2ShdsJcksn
Banned
I don't doubt that it is. I'm probably an outlier with my spending habits, but I can't pay that much, and definitely wouldn't touch $100 for a base game and season pass. Instead, look at Steam this weekend... I think I'm ready to finally pull the trigger on Borderlands 2 with all the DLC for $8.79. Maybe that other guy was right. I am just a stingy old fool.
See above. I'm just stingy. I admit it. That still makes the price unreasonable to me, and I'll wait for a $5-10 steam sale or humble bundle to get this.
DRM free games has been pretty common for a while now, and has earned some developers brownie points (like CDProjekt with The Witcher games and the GOG platform). I'd be curious to know how going DRM free has affected game sales.
For better discussion we need much more data, otherwise this thread will continue to devolve into generic piracy arguments.
No, the game is fairly priced and pirates are poor fucks who shouldn't play a game if they can't afford it - despite having a computer than can run it.
Should have put strict DRM on it.
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