Mass_Pincup
Banned
Saying that everyone who pirate would probably not buy the game if it was the only alternative is not supporting piracy.
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The Witness is being heavily pirated. J. Blow says piracy could impact his future.
- Thread starter Raylan
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Saying that everyone who pirate would probably not buy the game if it was the only alternative is not supporting piracy.
Costs more to implement Denuvo that the extra 7 sales he would have gotten.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Not defending piracy, but crowdfunding really wasn't a thing 5 years ago. It barely became a visible, viable thing for alot of game devs 3 years back even. If Blow made another game, I'm betting he would use kickstarter or the like.
RealityCheque
Banned
Out of curiosity, I just visited said "well known pirate site" and took a look at how many people are sharing The Witness and there's currently about 1600 in total, so I'm assuming that's 2-3000 over the course of the week?
I don't like that anyone is doing it, given that the game seems very much deserving of it's price tag. But 3000, while it sucks, doesn't seem like a gigantic loss. When all's said and done, this game is going to sell 500,000 (more or less, I'm open to being corrected here) and those pirated numbers don't seem like they'll make a massive impact. And that's also considering that most of these people just don't like paying and would've never bought it anyway.
If you watch the numbers of people actually sharing these files, it seems like they are getting smaller and smaller every month. The #1 pirated game pales in numbers to #1 movie or TV show. Denuvo etc appears to be putting the practice on borrowed time. Another question would be why there appears to be little to no protection on a high profile release like The Witness?
I don't like that anyone is doing it, given that the game seems very much deserving of it's price tag. But 3000, while it sucks, doesn't seem like a gigantic loss. When all's said and done, this game is going to sell 500,000 (more or less, I'm open to being corrected here) and those pirated numbers don't seem like they'll make a massive impact. And that's also considering that most of these people just don't like paying and would've never bought it anyway.
If you watch the numbers of people actually sharing these files, it seems like they are getting smaller and smaller every month. The #1 pirated game pales in numbers to #1 movie or TV show. Denuvo etc appears to be putting the practice on borrowed time. Another question would be why there appears to be little to no protection on a high profile release like The Witness?
It may not translate precisely, but the existence of piracy does lead to a loss of revenue no matter the medium.
CosmicQueso
Member
Every creator deserves to be compensated for their work. It is a shame that so many people decide that they are entitled to benefit from a work without giving back.
That being said, releasing a DRM free version of a game comes with inherent risks that the creator should have considered before agreeing to release. If the creator was not willing to accept those risks, then the DRM free version should not have been released.
From a dev/pub perspective, you understand the risks and benefits of the various distribution platforms available. You gauge your own tolerance for these risks and benefits, and release on those platforms you have comfort.
Technology like Denuvo is helping to reduce those problems customers had with old DRM technologies. Yes, some people don't like any form of DRM, but there has to be a compromise. If customers don't like Denuvo and similar technology, it's completely understandable. Unfortunately, releasing DRM free versions isn't a viable strategy for everyone.
This is precisely where the industry was going before the debut of STEAM.
Well this all depends on the costs associated with the development of the PC product that is being released. If you're spending a lot of money, getting a little money back from the customers who wish to compensate the producer for that game isn't good enough.
For development on any platform to continue, devs and pubs must see a path to profitability. This isn't just a PC problem. But, if a customer base shows itself to be small or, in the case here, risky/uncertain, then decisions have to be made whether or not to release on that platform.
That being said, releasing a DRM free version of a game comes with inherent risks that the creator should have considered before agreeing to release. If the creator was not willing to accept those risks, then the DRM free version should not have been released.
From a dev/pub perspective, you understand the risks and benefits of the various distribution platforms available. You gauge your own tolerance for these risks and benefits, and release on those platforms you have comfort.
Technology like Denuvo is helping to reduce those problems customers had with old DRM technologies. Yes, some people don't like any form of DRM, but there has to be a compromise. If customers don't like Denuvo and similar technology, it's completely understandable. Unfortunately, releasing DRM free versions isn't a viable strategy for everyone.
This is precisely where the industry was going before the debut of STEAM.
Well this all depends on the costs associated with the development of the PC product that is being released. If you're spending a lot of money, getting a little money back from the customers who wish to compensate the producer for that game isn't good enough.
For development on any platform to continue, devs and pubs must see a path to profitability. This isn't just a PC problem. But, if a customer base shows itself to be small or, in the case here, risky/uncertain, then decisions have to be made whether or not to release on that platform.
Evolution of Metal
Member
I don't think that Witness sales have a strong link with huge piracy.
Many games, even smaller profile and modest marketing, have great sales. Take a look at Dragon's Dogma: 200k+ sales already, it has no strong protection and is already on trackers. Hurtworld (early access survival game) is sitting at near 250k. Perhaps these are market trends, but I would also argue that those games communicate value and are priced way better than The Witness is.
People just don't see value in The Witness. The game doesn't have strong visuals, story is ambiguous and not the selling point, the game's mechanics are solely puzzles, no multiplayer or co-op elements and $40 price tag. There are so many potential customers on Steam that low sales usually indicate low interest as opposed to strong piracy.
I will just get the game when it lands in one of the Humble Bundles some day. That is inevitable...
Many games, even smaller profile and modest marketing, have great sales. Take a look at Dragon's Dogma: 200k+ sales already, it has no strong protection and is already on trackers. Hurtworld (early access survival game) is sitting at near 250k. Perhaps these are market trends, but I would also argue that those games communicate value and are priced way better than The Witness is.
People just don't see value in The Witness. The game doesn't have strong visuals, story is ambiguous and not the selling point, the game's mechanics are solely puzzles, no multiplayer or co-op elements and $40 price tag. There are so many potential customers on Steam that low sales usually indicate low interest as opposed to strong piracy.
I will just get the game when it lands in one of the Humble Bundles some day. That is inevitable...
JetSetRadio
Banned
They would still have to buy motion sickness pills.
Not an excuse, but I would imagine most people pirating it are doing so because they aren't sure they will like it, and don't want to spend the money on something they will play for 15 minutes then uninstall.
I really doubt the majority of pirates will play the game through, but many of those that actually do enjoy the game will probably buy it to support the developer.
I really doubt the majority of pirates will play the game through, but many of those that actually do enjoy the game will probably buy it to support the developer.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
The game would easily sell more at a lower cost, which could equate to a higher sales overall. The root problem of this game though is the time/money it cost to make it and trying to get that money back with a higher priced digital only game price tag.
floatstarpx
Member
What's his solution though?
More DRM?
"Somebody" (who?) go after the pirates?
He's not any more affected by this than other PC devs... Yes, it sucks - but even a quick chat with a few other devs would've given him any idea of the average rate of piracy on a PC game... and unless you're gonna do something clever to stop them, it should be part of your expectations from the start.
More DRM?
"Somebody" (who?) go after the pirates?
He's not any more affected by this than other PC devs... Yes, it sucks - but even a quick chat with a few other devs would've given him any idea of the average rate of piracy on a PC game... and unless you're gonna do something clever to stop them, it should be part of your expectations from the start.
Green Yoshi
Member
I think it will take longer than 12 months, because it's a 40$ game. But you might get it for 20$ in a Christmas sale on PS4. Or for 10$ in a Steam sale at the end of the year.
Yeah, I think something like Stanley Parable would probably be the way to go here. That was an excellent demo.
The pharmaceutical industry wins.
True, but still a very sad sentiment. He even stated he wanted to sell the game DRM-free because he like the idea of people actually owning the game, but that will more than likely be put in place soonish.
And add intrusive stuff to mess with paying customers? Seems like a bad deal to me.
Fuck piracy, but going hard in the opposite direction is not the answer. It wasn't the answer 10 years ago and still isn't the answer now.
How do people still think there are not paying customers on Steam when it has by far become the primary market for indies?
MrCompletely
Member
A lot of leaps and assumptions are being made based on a couple of tweets.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Name all the $40 puzzle games.
I don't think it's unfair to suppose that $40 is out of step for the genre if your goal is to sell in volume.
Doctor Ironic
Member
This doesn't even begin to be comparable. Not only was Braid his first game, it also came out on PC significantly later than it did on XBLA, at which point it had - as the quote you yourself pasted said - already made a profit.
Interfectum
Member
Should have made it F2P with downloadable, randomized "puzzle packs." Go whale hunting and be done with it.
Not everyone. But certainly will limit the fact.
Think this way. Why theft is bad?
Theft is forbidden in free market economy because it actually financially, hinders content/creator/sales provider.
Theft happens -> person loses money -> that person financially hit and do not spend money on something that he should have -> chain reaction happens.
If there is absolutely, nothing will be lost (in terms of value), theft would have been perfectly OK. And because apparently in terms of game, and ONLY game, that piracy or stolen goods do not affect economy of the game (because, you see, people who pirate the game wouldn't have dared to purchase the product in the very first place no matter what), there is no market lost, no money lost, nothing of the value has been demolished.
It's OK to pirate. It's different from physical good stealing, apparently.
The rational that piracy do not affect sales at all has been proven false in South Korea market decades ago. Entire PS2 market and PC market collapsed because of piracy in there.
Give War A Chance
Member
I really think this sentence sums up everything one needs to know about any "price controversy" surrounding this game.
As someone who plays a ton of indie games, even I had this thought pass through my mind. I'm also waiting on a sale. ANY sale.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
I'm a patient man. Or I will wait for a physical release and gamefly the game. Which ever comes first.
digitalrelic
Banned
I had a friend who always justified his pirating of movies by saying that he'd never pay to see them anyway so it's not like they're losing money.
Then he was caught and faced a lawsuit. Ended up settling for $3000 out-of-court.
Guess what? Nowadays he still watches movies all the time, whether he's buying them on Blu-ray or renting them digitally. He's done pirating though.
Pirates can make up all these bullshit excuses for why they pirate and how they aren't stealing and how they'd never buy the things they pirate anyway, but in the end, it's just that: Bullshit.
No one is arguing that EVERY pirated game equals one lost sale, but to try to say that pirating doesn't affect sales at all? Now that's truly naive.
I disagree. The fact that you have to slice things up as well as add additional things to sliced said things(due to being open world, need to block it off if you're just cutting out chunks) makes it not extremely easy to demo. That's not something you can whip up in an afternoon, unlike other demos that can segment part of the linear game. You then also have to consider what it is you're showing. If you're just showing a few puzzles to show off mechanics then you're not giving the full game justice. There's a lot more in this than the screen puzzles and having a demo present it as just that would make me not want to purchase the full game. Main reason I bought it was because I knew there would be crazy things since this comes from the braid dev. My issue is if you demo the game you don't want to show too much, but then by not showing much people will have a perception that the game is just screen puzzles. The Stanley Parable demo is the best and imo only way to do a proper demo for this type of game, but that would had been something they had to plan in advance.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Deft Beck
Member
Those people are not your primary customers. Everyone in a particular demographic is a potential customer, but only specific people in that demographic will always pay. The goal is to make it more worthwhile to pay and expand that pool.
Oh come on. No one is saying 1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale, but it's not unreasonable to say that 100,000 pirated copies equates to SOME lost sales. Which is something worth talking about.
I can't because I don't know prices of most puzzle games released but again that doesn't make my point wrong, Puzzle games are not niche games, anyone who says they are have really no clue what they are talking about.
I think it is out of touch to say that it's out of step.
I mean... Again, I'm fairly certain there have been developers that say that regions in which there game wasn't available for sale are regions where they saw the most piracy for their game.
Piracy isn't right, but there aren't always options for someone who wants to play the game, would pay for it--but simply can't.
To your second point, you aren't entitled to luxuries but if someone wants to make money, it makes business sense to try and appeal to people that might not necessarily be able to easily afford your product. Unless your demographic is purely among people who have disposable income--which I think it's safe to say videogames are not marketed towards that demographic.
Watching a quicklook for the game is literally anathema to how most people are saying you should experience the game for the first time. This is a game that you need to experience, everyone is saying.
I can't believe I'm actually arguing with someone over why a demo might be a good thing for a niche game that a lot of people have admitted to being wary over to begin with.
I'm being vague in the interest of avoiding spoilers, but there's literally a path that leads outside of the starting area. If you follow that path, it takes you to 2 areas that I'm thinking of that would make for pretty good demos! As for the second part of your statement... I mean, we're getting into the argument that you need to give the game "time" to really get going, and that's gonna be a strange thing to sell regardless. If a game doesn't show me something I'm interested in within a certain time limit, I'm not gonna be interested even if someone says, "Oh! It gets really good 6 hours in!"
QuantumSquid
Member
This is correct. The biggest reason for that is Steam Refunds can sometimes take a week or more to process. I feel like if the people who say "just use Steam refunds to see if the game works for you" had ever actually used the Steam refund system, they would see that it just doesn't work. It takes way too long to get your money back with the Steam refund system for pirates to find that more appealing than just torrenting the game and seeing if it works there before laying down any money on it.
Not to mention Valve might see it as kinda shady if you use Steam Refunds constantly to demo games, putting you at risk for refund denial when you genuinely need a refund on a game you had no intention of potentially refunding before you bought it.
GatticusFinch
Member
Has nothing to do with being comparable, it has to do with Blow's knowledge that people are going to be mad over the price. They were mad when it was $15 on XBLA, they were mad when it was $20 on PC, and now they're mad the Witness is $40.
He has a history of pricing his games at the top end of what the market will bear. He should have (and probably did) know this would be the response.
CosmicQueso
Member
There is a %, however small, of those people who pirate that would have bought the game.
Piracy is an opportunity cost. Just because you want to believe the every single one of the people that pirated the game would not have bought the game doesn't make it true.
TriniTrin
war of titties grampa
I also agree the lack of proper marketing or demos has probably hurt the game image. I had to watch a video with jim sterling about what the game was and it was basically the first hour or so of gameplay. After watching that i was not ready to buy the game at 40$. Mostly because I could see myself getting bired with it.
Now if i had played the game myself, it may have been different because the art the sound design and more would have came through in my personal experience. But I am not paying 40$ to find out if its something like that because I may end up of the mindset of "this game isnt for me" and then i just wasted 40$.
But back on topic, pirates would pirate this anyways so if Blow is disappointed with sales then he should probably look at the price point first.
Now if i had played the game myself, it may have been different because the art the sound design and more would have came through in my personal experience. But I am not paying 40$ to find out if its something like that because I may end up of the mindset of "this game isnt for me" and then i just wasted 40$.
But back on topic, pirates would pirate this anyways so if Blow is disappointed with sales then he should probably look at the price point first.
i dont agree wth piracy, but the strawman argument that money is lost due to it, is flowed imo. not every seed is a lost sale. to be honest, i havent heard the piracy argument in a while, not even from ubisoft. i hope we ont go back to it since pc has grown enough to counter that argument.
Because punishing the legitimate buyers is surely going to make those pirates change their ways when the DRM is inevitably cracked.
GrantDaNasty
Member
I just bought it.
If people aren't satisfied with the price, then don't buy it, but pirating it despite the outrage over the pricing or as some form of spite is...well, childish beyond belief.
If people aren't satisfied with the price, then don't buy it, but pirating it despite the outrage over the pricing or as some form of spite is...well, childish beyond belief.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
"Some" lost sales is impossible to quantify and ridiciulous to worry about.
There are games on steam that lost sales because they used the wrong font or screenshot on the game page.
MrCompletely
Member
The guy made a couple of tweets! That's hardly dwelling. Judging on his Twitter feed, it appears he's moved on.
ChaosZeroX
Banned
Honestly, this is probably one of the main reasons games get delayed on PC.
He should of delayed it on PC for a couple months.
He should of delayed it on PC for a couple months.
jshackles
Gentlemen, we can rebuild it. We have the capability to make the world's first enhanced store. Steam will be that store. Better than it was before.
This is my thought also. Additionally, if you are hinging the future of your career as a developer on people not pirating your game then you should understand that releasing a DRM free version of said game probably isn't a good idea.
I'm certainly not trying to blame the victim here, but this is a business and as a business I feel like you should understand the market you're selling to as best as possible.
YianGaruga
Banned
He didn't dwell on anything, he made 2 tweets.
Gameindustry.biz decided to blow it up
VivaciousSoul
Member
I never heard of this game before. Now I'm going to get it because I read about it in pirate thread.
Lanrutcon
Member
Ok, I've heard it all now. WoW was used in a piracy thread.
Ok guys, we've solved it: reason The Witness is getting pirated is because it doesn't have enough shitty recolored orcs.
Case closed.
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