Yea we've reached the inflection point in the piracy lost sale argument where people are pushing way too hard on that piracy doesn't result in lost sales.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Witness is being heavily pirated. J. Blow says piracy could impact his future.
- Thread starter Raylan
- Start date
- Status
Yea we've reached the inflection point in the piracy lost sale argument where people are pushing way too hard on that piracy doesn't result in lost sales.
It's a much bigger problem for indie games because they're on sale way more often than others, and they're so often PS+/GWG games. I fully expect this game to be less than $10 or free with a subscription within the next year.
Also it lacks a demo. I wouldn't pay $40 to try this. It looks like it could be good, but so many puzzle games are complete shit, this really should've had a way to try before you buy. Hell, a lot of indies don't have demos because they are shorter games. But this is supposed to have a ton of content, so that shouldn't be a problem here.
Already Torn
Banned
There's the key word. Patience is for losers.
Well, it was only two tweets. We are just blowing the whole thing out of proportion.
To be a part of the cultural zeitgeist surrounding this and many other forms of media. You might not want to pay for it or even want to play it, but you want to be a part of the conversation. All leads back to the idea of FOMO.
digitalrelic
Banned
That's what Steam Refunds are for. You can return any game within 14 days as long as you've played less than two hours. Those who try to rationalize piracy are quickly running out of excuses.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
People steal stuff that they can't or don't want to pay for, but still want them.
TimeEffect
Member
Talos Principle is the best comparison.
Wondering if he's just disappointed with the sales. Hard to tell since he doesn't provide an actual number of the pirated downloads he saw.
I still don't know why there was so much buzz around this game except that it was being made by the Braid guy. Nobody I know was really talking about or interested in it.
I still don't know why there was so much buzz around this game except that it was being made by the Braid guy. Nobody I know was really talking about or interested in it.
This is dumb.
There's no data to support anything of this nature whatsoever, and plenty of games have sold ludicrous amounts on PC while still being pirated.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Why do people buy games at dirt cheap prices and never play them? Its just a more legal version of the same thing. Digital hording is a real thing.
I'm sceptical of the 60+ hour claims, but based on the rate I'm doing things and discovering things at the moment, I'd be shocked if I had less than 25 hours on the clock when I finally decide I'm done.
Green Yoshi
Member
No offense, but people in Brazil ,who receive the minimum wage, are not the target audience of the game.
paragonpro
Banned
Pirates are scum bags. You're stealing and theres no excuse for it.
I mean, I got Braid for $15. Loved Braid. I managed to beat my friend to the end even though she was already way ahead of me in the game, that's how much I loved it.
That being said, I'm not getting the Witness for $40 unless there's a demo or something or I can actually try it. $40 is a lot of money for an indie title from someone whose entire career has been Braid. I was really hyped for this game. My friend and I had the following conversation over text just last week:
And then I heard it was $40. And while she hasn't said anything about it, I'm assuming she did as well, as neither of us have it in our Steam Libraries.
I mean, Yooka-Laylee is $15, and that's coming from the Rare employees behind Banjo-Kazooie and Donkey Kong 64. BattleBlock Theater, from the creators of Castle Crashers and Alien Hominid is $15. SOMA, created by the cool guys at Frictional who have a sort of track record for decent indie horror games, is $30.
Would you have paid $40 for BattleBlock Theater? I understand that the comparison might not be the most apt, given that BattleBlock Theater was developed in 5 years and probably didn't cost $6,000,000 to make, but I don't think that's the consumer's problem. Here's a slightly relevant article from Polygon with an interview from The Behemoth founders John Baez and Dan Paladin about consumer expectation and game development:
Just look at that mark-up. Braid to The Witness is a 267% price increase. Sure, maybe from Jonathan Blow's side of things that makes sense, what with the increased budget and the time it took to develop and how many of his own funds he poured in to the project, but I don't really care as a consumer about how much of his own money Jonathan Blow spent to make his dream game a reality. I care about how it plays and what the value of that game is to me.
Let's look at Dark Souls, for a moment. Undoubtedly a good game. Dark Souls 2? Still pretty damn solid. If Dark Souls retailed for $60, should I expect to pay $160 for Dark Souls 2? Or Bloodborne? Or whatever FROM's next project was, even if it had a bigger budget and was self-funded by the developers?
What I'm saying is that yeah, piracy sucks, and you shouldn't be downloading shit illegally, and it's wrong to do so, but I understand why people are doing it.
That being said, I'm not getting the Witness for $40 unless there's a demo or something or I can actually try it. $40 is a lot of money for an indie title from someone whose entire career has been Braid. I was really hyped for this game. My friend and I had the following conversation over text just last week:
And then I heard it was $40. And while she hasn't said anything about it, I'm assuming she did as well, as neither of us have it in our Steam Libraries.
I mean, Yooka-Laylee is $15, and that's coming from the Rare employees behind Banjo-Kazooie and Donkey Kong 64. BattleBlock Theater, from the creators of Castle Crashers and Alien Hominid is $15. SOMA, created by the cool guys at Frictional who have a sort of track record for decent indie horror games, is $30.
Would you have paid $40 for BattleBlock Theater? I understand that the comparison might not be the most apt, given that BattleBlock Theater was developed in 5 years and probably didn't cost $6,000,000 to make, but I don't think that's the consumer's problem. Here's a slightly relevant article from Polygon with an interview from The Behemoth founders John Baez and Dan Paladin about consumer expectation and game development:
Just look at that mark-up. Braid to The Witness is a 267% price increase. Sure, maybe from Jonathan Blow's side of things that makes sense, what with the increased budget and the time it took to develop and how many of his own funds he poured in to the project, but I don't really care as a consumer about how much of his own money Jonathan Blow spent to make his dream game a reality. I care about how it plays and what the value of that game is to me.
Let's look at Dark Souls, for a moment. Undoubtedly a good game. Dark Souls 2? Still pretty damn solid. If Dark Souls retailed for $60, should I expect to pay $160 for Dark Souls 2? Or Bloodborne? Or whatever FROM's next project was, even if it had a bigger budget and was self-funded by the developers?
What I'm saying is that yeah, piracy sucks, and you shouldn't be downloading shit illegally, and it's wrong to do so, but I understand why people are doing it.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Pretty short list, then. Which sort of makes the point all by itself.
This tends to be my fear these days and why I almost always wait unless it's on a nice pre-order sale. I think I got Borderlands 2 + season pass for $30 pre-launch. Same for Bioshock Infinite. Battlefront I got for $50 but it was the game + season pass. Those I can justify becuase I feel like "I got a deal". Not getting a discount forces me to judge the game based on paying full price vs waiting for a sale. And again, with 100 games in Steam that I haven't even installed before, "wait" is going to be the answer 9 times out of 10.
Last PC game that I payed full price for was Diablo 3 in 2012.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
To be fair, i'm not arguing against the merits of demos or whether they're useful at all, just that a lack of a demo these days isn't a excuse to pirate a game to "demo" it. There are several ways to preview a game, be it interact or passive, available now to gamers to decide whether a game is right for them or not.
as far as those who are in regions where gaming might not be as accessible as it is for others: i sincerely doubt that piracy is coming primarily from those regions seeing as you'd have to have a decent $500-$1000 PC to play the more heavily pirated PC games and who is this weird person in these regions who can afford a $500-$1000 PC rig yet not afford games to go with it? outside of being a fictional person, that is
naw, i'd bet most piracy is coming from western gamers.
Demoskinos
Member
Steam refunds are not demos.
http://www.russia-briefing.com/news/russia-ranks-second-in-pirated-software-users-after-china.html/
Basically all of Russia.
I do agree that no demo isn't an excuse for piracy, but I can also put myself in the shoes of someone that wants to try out a game but has no real method of doing so.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
I wonder if he regrets not making a XBO port.
Disaster Nebraska
Banned
This is why mid-tier games died. Thanks PC gamers...
I see all the time, but it could have been a sale. If it weren't possible to pirate the game would all of these gamers pass on it and gaming in general? I don't believe that for a second.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
this shit again
1 pirated copy does not and never will equate to 1 lost sale. are they lost sales? sure, but a small fraction of those pirates would have ever actually bothered to buy the game, especially at the $40 price point. many of these pirates will purchase it when it goes on sale, as it is shown every single time with tons of different games
movie companies apply this same logic to movie pirates, even when that movie and it's dvd/blu-ray sales break records
1 pirated copy does not and never will equate to 1 lost sale. are they lost sales? sure, but a small fraction of those pirates would have ever actually bothered to buy the game, especially at the $40 price point. many of these pirates will purchase it when it goes on sale, as it is shown every single time with tons of different games
movie companies apply this same logic to movie pirates, even when that movie and it's dvd/blu-ray sales break records
It's not really a question. You can't justify piracy in a non-nuanced situation. Something like horrible DRM that fucks with your registry could be understandible but even then it's still a shitty thing to do.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Okay I hate statements like these. It's not unfounded but how often is it a product of social discrepancies and injustice.
Are poor people not entitled to fun because they could be working more instead to be able to afford fun? Not saying it's alright to pirate though.
It'd be easy for me to say people aren't entitled to luxuries since I was born into a middle class family who never had to really work for a luxury.
NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
I feel like there has to be some sort of gray area in between the parties of people that would definitely buy the game and people that definitely would not buy the game.
This gray area is made up of the undecided folks that likely would have bought the game if being able to play it for free wasn't an option.
This gray area is made up of the undecided folks that likely would have bought the game if being able to play it for free wasn't an option.
CosmicQueso
Member
Right, it's not victim blaming at all.
If Mr. Blow is actually surprised by this happening, he made a very poor business decision. It happens. But now he has to live with the consequences of that decision.
I agree with you, you absolutely have to understand the market you're selling to.
WonkyPanda
Member
So, some people would rather illegally download someone else's work to see if they would like it, rather than purchasing it for a mere $40 and not being happy with it? Or, god forbid, waiting for a sale? The horror.
YianGaruga
Banned
Why not?
Ok, so let's look at a recent release on PC: Dragon's Dogma.
Now, this is a port of a 3 year old game with a cult following that for some reason didn't get a japanese release. It's also being sold for $30 after all this time. When it initially released in japan it got ~393k sales, when it intially released outside in the U.S. it got like 90k-ish sales in launch period.
Now, for the PC release, 3 years later mind you, the week before the game is released one of the reviewers releases their personal DRM free review copy and it's spread around on pirate sites. Despite being pirated before it even released and being an old game that didn't review particularly well, either, the game still manages to sell over 200k in the launch period, half as well as the initial launch in japan, and more than double the U.S. release.
But sure, pirates hurt sales to the point where devs shouldn't consider PC releases. Let's go with that.
Now, this is a port of a 3 year old game with a cult following that for some reason didn't get a japanese release. It's also being sold for $30 after all this time. When it initially released in japan it got ~393k sales, when it intially released outside in the U.S. it got like 90k-ish sales in launch period.
Now, for the PC release, 3 years later mind you, the week before the game is released one of the reviewers releases their personal DRM free review copy and it's spread around on pirate sites. Despite being pirated before it even released and being an old game that didn't review particularly well, either, the game still manages to sell over 200k in the launch period, half as well as the initial launch in japan, and more than double the U.S. release.
But sure, pirates hurt sales to the point where devs shouldn't consider PC releases. Let's go with that.
D'oh forgot about Steam refunds. You are correct, this would have been the way to go. But unfortunately that's not how pirates think.
Being a software pirate is a sickness, where the game becomes collecting as much free shit as you can. No one would ever have time to play it all, but they want to own it regardless. I still believe that most people who have an illegal copy don't give a shit about it and will play for 15 minutes before moving on to the next game they stole.
Already Torn
Banned
You can use it as a demo though, I've definitely done that a few times.
The bad part is that even if you enjoy it,'you just spent $40.
It doesn't matter if you think it's fairly priced, since the market just doesn't work that way. A game can offer 1.000 hours of well-crafted, unique and high quality gameplay and people might still reply to it with: "You know, a $60 fashion sim isn't actually appealing to me." That's just how it works and there's nothing good or bad about it.
If anything, the past has shown that aggressive DRM mechanisms aren't helping sales considerably. Putting DRM on it won't hurt sales, but it's also silly to assume that suddenly everyone who would have pirated it before is now going to buy it when experience shows that the vast majority of pirates just would chose option b) and don't play the game at all in that case.
If a game is appealing to an audience, it's going to find its audience regardless. If the general market doesn't think the concept is appealing or not appealing enough for the asked price, it will struggle. It's pretty much as easy as that.
It still amazes me that anyone believes something as fucking idiotic as this.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
yo dawg im talking about fucking video games
I 100% don't believe this. Seems like such an internet warrior "consumer rights, man!" frame of mind.
I hope the game does well. While I don't think $40 is too high, they had to know the perception of value for a downloadable game. Maybe would've been smarter to go something like $25 and eat some cost. Who knows.
Steve Youngblood
Member
Sure, I get that. And I know it's way too early to tell where the dust is going to settle on this. I may wind up being wrong. But my suspicion is that in the long run the PC version is going to make a lot of money for him. When something like Talos Principle can launch at $40 and have half a million owners on Steam, I'm not worried about The Witness. It's reviewing well for him, and I suspect it's going to be a good seller for some time.
Admittedly, that's me just guessing based on very little data. Maybe sales will plateau quickly while people steadily continue to pirate the game. But if I'm not wrong, I just think it's a mistake to lose sight of the money that you're actually making in favor of getting distracted by hypothetical money you might have made.
And I have no problem with non-invasive DRM.
SolidusDave
Member
Should have released first on PS4, then a few months later on PC.
Gather good word of mouth and reviews on a platform with zero piracy, then maybe it wouldn't be such a hard sell.
That said, I'm sure it will have legs. I bought it at launch but wouldn't have at that price if it weren't for people reporting in how amazing it is.
At the latest when it's on sale for the first time people will jump on it.
(hopefully)
Gather good word of mouth and reviews on a platform with zero piracy, then maybe it wouldn't be such a hard sell.
That said, I'm sure it will have legs. I bought it at launch but wouldn't have at that price if it weren't for people reporting in how amazing it is.
At the latest when it's on sale for the first time people will jump on it.
(hopefully)
Nah, pricing absolutely matters. It's a matter of perception of worth and the deal you're getting - there has been over a hundred years worth of market studies on the fine line between "product prices vs customer value." Regardless, I bet most of these pirates are teens who can't even afford most games - in which case, a ten dollar difference is all the world.
fixed it for you. thats the strawman argument of 2000. pc games rarely get delayed these days form big publishers. Only one i can think of is ubisoft with their big name franchises.
pc gmaing is doing more than fine and for one developer to say its going to COST THEM their future, when he has the game on other platforms seems kind of ridiculous, also considering that not even pirateed copy is a lost sale like many ignorants claim.
This.
Using Steam refunds as an alternative is not smart you guys.
I know it said on the release that you could refund if you didn't like a game (And that's fine). But if you were to treat refunds as demos, as in, you buy like 5 games, try them all out and then refund them, then you'll get penalized for that.
Others might disagree as value is subjective, but I can't really afford to drop £30 on a game and be unsure as to whether or not I'll enjoy it. That's no excuse for piracy, though... I'll just do the right thing and wait for a sale.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
This level of shitposting in this topic is shameful.
"Piracy Defense Force" -- guess there really is a defense force for everything.
"Piracy Defense Force" -- guess there really is a defense force for everything.
lukeskymac
Member
I used the minimum wage as a comparison point. $40 is a lot for most people around here.
Tetris DS on launch, IIRC. Or it was $30.
GrantDaNasty
Member
Is buying an iPhone, using it for a week and returning it a "demo"?
Look, I will admit..maybe games need demos, but using Steam refund like that and saying "it might aswell be a demo" is...kinda gross to be fair.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
that's necessities, not luxuries.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
Nice troll.
WonkyPanda
Member
That's fair and I agree. However, the ease and openness of piracy allows for a "now" avenue that people will take instead of waiting for a sale.
I have people I know who do such things. Can't find it to pirate? Wait for sale.
shortsFortallPeople
Banned
i know, i was being hyperbolic for effect but decided against it after
- Status