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[jshackles]

Why not?

From here:

Refunds are designed to remove the risk from purchasing titles on Steam—not as a way to get free games.

While it's not exactly saying "don't use this as a way to get a demo of a game that doesn't offer one", it's implying that you shouldn't.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

So, some people would rather illegally download someone else's work to see if they would like it, rather than purchasing it for a mere $40 and not being happy with it? Or, god forbid, waiting for a sale? The horror.

Ok, so let's look at a recent release on PC: Dragon's Dogma.

Now, this is a port of a 3 year old game with a cult following that for some reason didn't get a japanese release. It's also being sold for $30 after all this time. When it initially released in japan it got ~393k sales, when it intially released outside in the U.S. it got like 90k-ish sales in launch period.

Now, for the PC release, 3 years later mind you, the week before the game is released one of the reviewers releases their personal DRM free review copy and it's spread around on pirate sites. Despite being pirated before it even released and being an old game that didn't review particularly well, either, the game still manages to sell over 200k in the launch period, half as well as the initial launch in japan, and more than double the U.S. release.

But sure, pirates hurt sales to the point where devs shouldn't consider PC releases. Let's go with that.

all evidence points to this and yet we have hundreds of people on gaf lubing up for developers when they blame pc gamers for lost sales, even when those sales are great

 

[Sylas]

Why not?

.

I have $100 in my budget for the week. I could spend that $100 on good food, or I could spend $40 on a game and $60 on mediocre food. In both cases, I will be fed.

In the first case, I will have food that I know is tasty and will make me happy! In the second case, I will have a new game to play and food that's filling but not my favorite.

If I spend $40 on the game and realize I don't like it--I'm going to be very disappointed that I couldn't try the game out beforehand, and thus am stuck eating mediocre food and having a game I don't really like. I can ask for a refund, but it takes 3-5 business days to get it put back into my account. By the time I get it all sorted, the next week will have rolled around and my budget resets.

Piracy isn't the solution, but a demo--especially for something like The Witness--has it's merits even with refunds.

 

[Liamario]

I think the 40 buckaroos is a little steep. Not because the value isn't there, but because the demand may not be. It's a new IP from an Indy developer, some people are reluctant to commit at that price. No demo only reinforces the decision to hold off.
If pirates like the game, some of them will buy it on a sale, when they feel the price is right.

 

[Already Torn]

Is buying an iPhone, using it for a week and returning it a "demo"?

Look, I will admit..maybe games need demos, but using Steam refund like that and saying "it might aswell be a demo" is...kinda gross to be fair.

Literally everyone does this though. It's the best part about Steam refunds. It's even factored into the system as a reason you would be returning the game.

Some people may get mad about it for whatever reason, but it's a legitimate way to use the refund system.

 

[digitalrelic]

Steam refunds are not demos.

What does that even mean? Honestly, that means nothing. You can get all of your money back after playing the game for an hour and 59 minutes. There's no excuse for piracy when you have that option.

 

[Arkeband]

If the first hour of the game is exceptionally dull, piracy to actually get more eyes on the game past that first hour to vouch for the rest of it might actually see a net boost in sales.

Music is generally pirated or free these days, but by word of mouth, people are willing to pony up cash to "own" something that is seen as culturally relevant, prestigious, or collectable.

Completing The Witness in its own .exe file is not as attractive as owning it on Steam, collecting its trading cards and achievements, and allowing your social sphere to see you've sunk XX number of hours into it and 100%'d it.

The Witness will be fine.

 

[Vamphuntr]

Every game is pirated heavily anyway. Dragon's Dogma was leaked a week before you could play it on steam and it sold very well. I really don't think people that pirated it wanted to buy it in the first place.

Piracy isn't probably the main reason why the sales are not what he expected. I do think 40$ might seems a bit steep for the average consumer. I understand fairly well it was expensive to make and he blew all the profits he previously made on his other game but customers don't think about this when they choose games to buy. I'm curious about the game but not 40$ curious if you see what I mean. I'll get it when it's cheaper as I don't have infinite money and other games are a priority on my list.

And maybe people weren't that interested in the game in the first place...

 

[CosmicQueso]

Why do people buy games at dirt cheap prices and never play them? Its just a more legal version of the same thing. Digital hording is a real thing.

It's not just legal. When someone offers a product at a price, and another person agrees to that price, and money is exchanged for the good, it's a two-way contract. That's not just legal, it's completely moral.

If one person offers a good for sale at a particular price, and another person takes the good without compensating the person offering the good, that's immoral, and a breaking of the offered contract.

Just think about it.

 

[Yukinari]

Tetris DS on launch, IIRC. Or it was $30.

Tetris DS has a ton of modes and awesome multiplayer so i can see why people bought it back then.

 

[Exuro]

I'm being vague in the interest of avoiding spoilers, but there's literally a path that leads outside of the starting area. If you follow that path, it takes you to 2 areas that I'm thinking of that would make for pretty good demos! As for the second part of your statement... I mean, we're getting into the argument that you need to give the game "time" to really get going, and that's gonna be a strange thing to sell regardless. If a game doesn't show me something I'm interested in within a certain time limit, I'm not gonna be interested even if someone says, "Oh! It gets really good 6 hours in!"

Right, its a deceptive game and that's hard to really show off without giving things away. I think I know at least one of the places you're referring to, and I'm not sure that if there was a demo before hand that I'd buy the game. I think a demo that takes chunks of the main game would give players a worse perception of the game, at least I wouldn't buy it. It being open world realllllly ties into the gameplay, so spending time chunking out a few areas for a demo imo would make those areas worse off in a demo. I'll say it again but The Stanley Parable demo is the only type of demo format you could do for this game. The problem is that needed to already be finished and released before the game came out.

 

[wapplew]

From my experience, it's not about pirate won't buy your game anyway, it's more like why buy your game when I can pirate.
At my office, everyone bought Diablo 3, why? It can't be pirate. How many of us buy Diablo 2? Zero.

I'm sure many region have similar problem, that's why retail game are dead here. That's why every game become online only.

 

[GrantDaNasty]

Literally everyone does this though. It's the best part about Steam refunds.

Guess I didn't get the memo in that case.

 

[GlamFM]

Why do people insist there should be a relation between who made the game and how much it costs?

What is the problem with an Indi (Independently funded game...) being $40 or even $60?

 

[KalBalboa]

Pirates would have continued being the entitled fuckwits they are at any price point. Don't blame the creator for the shitty behavior of others.

Bam.

 

[Movalpolos]

Isn't this an example of pricing yourself out of the market? I mean, piracy is completely wrong, but I doubt the vast majority of pirates would have paid $40 for the game in the first place.

What kind of logic is this? They would have still pirated it regardless of the price.

 

[Lanrutcon]

This level of shitposting in this topic is shameful.

"Piracy Defense Force" -- guess there really is a defense force for everything.

It's not shitposting just because the person has a different opinion than you.

Thanks.

 

[Sylas]

What does that even mean? Honestly, that means nothing. You can get all of your money back after playing the game for an hour and 59 minutes. There's no excuse for piracy when you have that option.

.

I have $100 in my budget for the week. I could spend that $100 on good food, or I could spend $40 on a game and $60 on mediocre food. In both cases, I will be fed.

In the first case, I will have food that I know is tasty and will make me happy! In the second case, I will have a new game to play and food that's filling but not my favorite.

If I spend $40 on the game and realize I don't like it--I'm going to be very disappointed that I couldn't try the game out beforehand, and thus am stuck eating mediocre food and having a game I don't really like. I can ask for a refund, but it takes 3-5 business days to get it put back into my account. By the time I get it all sorted, the next week will have rolled around and my budget resets.

Piracy isn't the solution, but a demo--especially for something like The Witness--has it's merits even with refunds.

 

[SkoomaSuckinSwit]

I bought it on PS4 and am loving it.
But I'm a great guy with good gaming tastes, who isn't a cheap bastard or thief.

Quick check of a popular torrent site has The Witness at #15.
(Damn, Fallout4 getting stolen like crazy.)

 

[Tenebrous]

From here:

While it's not exactly saying "don't use this as a way to get a demo of a game that doesn't offer one", it's implying that you shouldn't.

Removing the risk to me ticks a few boxes: Broken games, early access disasters, and games you don't like. I see nothing wrong with using the refund system for a game that you dislike, and I don't know why anyone else would, either... Use it as a demo, but don't refund small games you manage to beat in a 2 hour timeframe.

 

[GatticusFinch]

Literally everyone does this though. It's the best part about Steam refunds.

Not liking the game and the game running like ass or not running at all are the only parts of Steam refunds. I don't understand this logic people are using--if I bought the game, and it runs fine but I hate it, I shouldn't get to refund it?

 

[Totaleclipes]

Isn't this an example of pricing yourself out of the market? I mean, piracy is completely wrong, but I doubt the vast majority of pirates would have paid $40 for the game in the first place.

So your saying it's the developers fault because the price is to everyone's desire? I'm sorry this rests on the pc community on this one it's no one else's fault seeing how much work the team put into this game.

 

[Akronis]

Literally everyone does this though. It's the best part about Steam refunds. It's even factored into the system as a reason you would be returning the game.

Some people may get mad about it for whatever reason, but it's a legitimate way to use the refund system.

No, literally everyone doesn't do this. There are penalties for abusing the refund system. Abuse is 100% defined by Valve, so it's a risk you take.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Pirates would have continued being the entitled fuckwits they are at any price point. Don't blame the creator for the shitty behavior of others.

weird how sales for certain games sky rocket when they go on sale huh? even people who previously pirated the game purchase it for a lower price point

how does that work?

 

[low-G]

Really sucks, and while the price plays a part, he should have locked it down with major DRM. Some people do seem to be looking at this product and somehow being so messed up in the head that they decide that the game may in some way not actually be worth it? But then again there are broke college students who mostly play DOTA, and this game is sending out such hype waves that it is even affecting casual gamers...

It is weird how many PC fanboys are coming out of the woodwork to note about how PC now enjoys such great sales and is such a strong platform with universal acclaim from publishers.

How do you come into a thread like this and just decide to do a kneejerk reaction about how this is all about defending your gaming platform of choice?

 

[Already Torn]

Not liking the game and the game running like ass or not running at all are the only parts of Steam refunds. I don't understand this logic people are using--if I bought the game, and it runs fine but I hate it, I shouldn't get to refund it?

You can say that the reason you're asking for the refund is because you didn't like the game and it works. So no, those aren't the only parts.

 

[Tagyhag]

So, some people would rather illegally download someone else's work to see if they would like it, rather than purchasing it for a mere $40 and not being happy with it? Or, god forbid, waiting for a sale? The horror.

I understand where you're coming from, but the bolded is a highly parochial view.

 

[digitalrelic]

I have $100 in my budget for the week. I could spend that $100 on good food, or I could spend $40 on a game and $60 on mediocre food. In both cases, I will be fed.

In the first case, I will have food that I know is tasty and will make me happy! In the second case, I will have a new game to play and food that's filling but not my favorite.

If I spend $40 on the game and realize I don't like it--I'm going to be very disappointed that I couldn't try the game out beforehand, and thus am stuck eating mediocre food and having a game I don't really like. I can ask for a refund, but it takes 3-5 business days to get it put back into my account. By the time I get it all sorted, the next week will have rolled around and my budget resets.

Piracy isn't the solution, but a demo--especially for something like The Witness--has it's merits even with refunds.

This argument isn't valid. In your scenario, a pirate is going to download the game for free and use the $100 to buy food. It's not like a pirate is going to steal the game and then go, "You know what? I like this game. I think I'll eat shitty food for the week so that I can show my support for the developer and donate half of my funds towards them."

 

[GatticusFinch]

No, literally everyone doesn't do this. There are penalties for abusing the refund system. Abuse is 100% defined by Valve, so it's a risk you take.

Literally everyone but you does this. Are you telling me you would not refund a game you hated if it ran fine on your PC?

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Tetris DS on launch, IIRC. Or it was $30.

Tetris has a brand. One of the grandest in all of gaming history. But yea, that's 2 on the list. Again, the point comes into clear focus.

Anyway, I'll pick the game up when it's on Steam Summer sale or something. Best of luck to the team. I'm sure it'll sell well over time. I think $30 with 25% off pre-orders would have saw these numbers much higher. Especially the day before launch when all the reviews came out. That was the time to get all of us impulse buyers. I looked for a deal but found none and moved on.

But what do I know. Not much.

 

[YianGaruga]

From here:

While it's not exactly saying "don't use this as a way to get a demo of a game that doesn't offer one", it's implying that you shouldn't.

But what risk is it talking about if you can't try out a game and see if you don't like it? I'm sure that refunding a game you don't like is intended. That's not getting free games.

.

I don't buy that as a reason, sorry.

Is buying an iPhone, using it for a week and returning it a "demo"?

Look, I will admit..maybe games need demos, but using Steam refund like that and saying "it might aswell be a demo" is...kinda gross to be fair.

What do you think Steam refunds are for then? You're limited to 2 hours playtime anyway.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

Why do people insist there should be a relation between who made the game and how much it costs?

What is the problem with an Indi (Independently funded game...) being $40 or even $60?

There's no problem really. Just don't expect it to do as well as it could have at a $15-$20 price tag.

I don't follow PC games, but maybe people steal less lower priced games.

 

[Astarte]

Unfortunately I know a few people who pirated the game because of its price. I have no interest in this game, but Blow should get at least something out of it :/

 

[KTallguy]

weird how sales for certain games sky rocket when they go on sale huh? even people who previously pirated the game purchase it for a lower price point

how does that work?

Do we actually have data on this or is this just something people have anecdotal experience about?

Edit: The sad thing is, if he put crazy DRM on it he would have gotten bashed in a different way. This is not an online game that is constantly doing checks in the background.

Mid-tier PC games are definitely not a fun market... only certain types of titles appear to have enough perceived value.

 

[LifeBrandRobot]

Wow, that really sucks. Maybe I'll pick this up sooner than I planned, I feel bad for him and his team. It only has around 750 ratings on PSN too. Hopefully releasing it on physical gives it a well deserved boost.

Btw that "pirates wouldn't have bought it anyway" argument doesn't hold any water, look at music sales before and after piracy.

 

[GatticusFinch]

You can say that the reason you're asking for the refund is because you didn't like the game and it works. So no, those aren't the only parts.

Reread that sentence. Those are the only parts.

1. Not liking the game.
2. Poor performance or game not working properly.

What other reason could someone have?

 

[Sylas]

This argument isn't valid. In your scenario, a pirate is going to download the game for free and use the $100 to buy food. It's not like a pirate is going to steal the game and then go, "You know what? I like this game. I think I'll eat shitty food for the week so that I can show my support for the developer and donate half of my funds towards them."

Not necessarily--and you're trying to use computer logic to speak to an emotional decision. There are, and I'm positing here, plenty of people that respect the hard work a developer puts into a product and will happily support it if they like it, even if it means eating shitty food for a week.

But what risk is it talking about if you can't try out a game and see if you don't like it? I'm sure that refunding a game you don't like is intended. That's not getting free games.


I don't buy that as a reason, sorry.

That's on you, my dude, if you don't buy it. As someone that's been in the position before, it's a mindset that's not uncommon at all. There are times when I simply couldn't wait the 3-5 days for the money to get returned to me if I didn't like it, so I didn't buy the game. I would have bought if it I could have tried it first, though, and ended up liking it!

 

[bwakh]

Can't believe people are complaining about the price point. Hell I didn't know it was $40 and was ready to spend $60 after reading the reviews. Seems to be a game worth it.

 

[Venfayth]

The Witness is gamier than people are giving it credit for. I wouldn't compare it to Tetris for many different reasons.

 

[Sectorseven]

Why don't pirates follow my lead and borrow all their games from the library? You don't have to pay a dime and it's completely legal.

 

[Already Torn]

Reread that sentence. Those are the only parts.

1. Not liking the game.
2. Poor performance or game not working properly.

What other reason could someone have?

You're right, I completely misread your post 😅

 

[WonkyPanda]

I understand where you're coming from, but the bolded is a highly parochial view.

No, I get it. I took that a little callously. Still, when two tickets to a movie cost $30 for ~2 hours of entertainment, it's hard to, usually, scoff at $40. But, yes, I apologize. I understand that $40 can be very steep for some individuals.

 

[Sethista]

the Witness has already made a million dollars on Steam before valve takes its cut and probably something around that ballpark on the PS4, too.

I mean the man might already have made 2 million on the witness in less than a week, i don't think piracy is really putting a hurting on him. Not to condone it, but I'm not buying it.

He deserves equal compensation for the work the team put into the development. Just because he already got alot of money for it, so he should shut up aout people stealing his work?

Its this poor thinking that encourages people to be permissive about piracy.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

I don't buy that as a reason, sorry.

but dont you see, that gamer might starve if they have to pay for the witness

starve!

He deserves equal compensation for the work the team put into the development. Just because he already got alot of money for it, so he should shut up aout people stealing his work?

Its this poor thinking that encourages people to be permissive about piracy.

i already stated in other comments that im not concerned with Blow's piracy concerns as the game is going to have a long tail and make its money. And again, not condoning piracy, quite the opposite in fact

 

[digitalrelic]

No, literally everyone doesn't do this. There are penalties for abusing the refund system. Abuse is 100% defined by Valve, so it's a risk you take.

Literally everyone but you does this. Are you telling me you would not refund a game you hated if it ran fine on your PC?

This is straight from Valve's website:

You can request a refund for nearly any purchase on Steam—for any reason. Maybe your PC doesn't meet the hardware requirements; maybe you bought a game by mistake; maybe you played the title for an hour and just didn't like it.

For fucks sake people, quit trying to make these completely bullshit excuses for piracy. It literally says in the opening line of Valve's refund page that they don't give a fuck why you want a refund for the game.

 

[Alienous]

Why do people insist there should be a relation between who made the game and how much it costs?

What is the problem with an Indi (Independently funded game...) being $40 or even $60?

Are people saying it's an issue? I'm reading people saying that it probably influenced the amount of piracy but I can't recall a comment saying that a $40 indie game isn't allowed?

And it did probably influence the amount of piracy in combination with the lack of anti-piracy security measures.

 

[CosmicQueso]

But my suspicion is that in the long run the PC version is going to make a lot of money for him.

Sure. It can be a bit shocking though to see the numbers on the piracy side versus the purchase side.

Just about ten years ago, a multiplayer shooter... a friend... was working on launched. Was full price on consoles and PC. The devs reached out and said "wow we have a hit! We have X thousand players on right now! This is amazing!" Unfortunately, sales on PC were only 5% of the concurrent player count at that moment. It was crushing.

I just think it's a mistake to lose sight of the money that you're actually making in favor of getting distracted by hypothetical money you might have made.

I agree with you, but then again we haven't spent the last, what, 3 to 5 years working and thinking about this thing every day.

 

[MMaRsu]

Pirates will stay pirates most of the time unless they feel the product is worth their money.

I bought it on PS4 and its amazing, I hope it sells well.

That its nr 1 on torrent sites can also mean more exposure which might mean more sales in the end.

 

[31GhostsIV]

The piracy issue is harsh, as I understand Blow wanting to get paid for his work. There's ways he could have reduced this issue though. For example -

The price of the game is steep for a digital only title. PSN pricing has been a bad joke in the UK for a while now anyway, with prices jacked up around £10 just by virtue of the PS4 being released (even on games that are more or less the same on the PS3). Personally, i'm not pirating it, but I am waiting for a sale price (although to be fair I promised myself to be more frugal with gaming from now on regardless).

Also, with no retail option (where competing stores usually means someone is offering a lower than RRP cost somewhere) AND it being a niche experience that apparently needs to be played to understand its greatness... I dunno. He should have made a demo so people could try it out, maybe? Stellar reviews and lack of demo only works if your first person game has a gun on the screen somewhere.

 

[SteveO409]

This level of shitposting in this topic is shameful.

"Piracy Defense Force" -- guess there really is a defense force for everything.

You could cherry pick a few posts but most of the thread isn't condoning piracy.