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[FunkyMunkey]

Do we actually have data on this or is this just something people have anecdotal experience about?

if you look at how many people have pirated a game (numbers) and how much a game sells when on sale (especially in a steam environment where it's 1 activated of a game per account), it's ridiculous not to attribute some of the sales to previous pirates of the game. to think every single one of those sales were people holding out 100% until a sale versus people previously pirating it and getting it on sale later knowing they enjoyed it

Edit: The sad thing is, if he put crazy DRM on it he would have gotten bashed in a different way. This is not an online game that is constantly doing checks in the background.

Mid-tier PC games are definitely not a fun market... only certain types of titles appear to have enough perceived value.

i agree, i imagine it's very difficult to find a balance between inherent and perceived value as those directly influence sales (as with everything else that is sold on earth)

 

[KarmaCow]

The Witness is gamier than people are giving it credit for. I wouldn't compare it to Tetris for many different reasons.

I'm confused, do you think Tetris is not gamey because I would say Tetris is the quintessential video game.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

i know, i was being hyperbolic for effect but decided against it after

I was hyperbolic too before, pirating is wrong ofc, but I really don't like it when people talk about entitlement especially in regards to poor people.

It's like when people mention immigrants all having smartphones to insinuate they can't have it that bad, or stuff.

 

[digitalrelic]

Not necessarily--and you're trying to use computer logic to speak to an emotional decision. There are, and I'm positing here, plenty of people that respect the hard work a developer puts into a product and will happily support it if they like it, even if it means eating shitty food for a week.

Yeah, and those people aren't pirating games.

 

[ZoddGutts]

For comparison's sake, Ori has over half a million sales. Then again, it's half the price of The Witness.

The problem with The Witness is that the line puzzle mechanic drove away people, thinking the game would just a series of simple maze puzzles, which it ain't. And probably most importantly, Blow took way too fucking long making, consequently spending more money than he should have. And then there's the price. I guess these in are fact multiple factors.

Wonder how big his dev team is. Yeah, same 7 years is a bit much to spend on a genre that doesn't really sell much unless it's named Portal, not really financially feasible if the dev team is kinda big rather than just being 2 or 3 people working on it for that long, didn't he say if the game bombs his dead broke or something like that?

CroTeam made Talos in a little over 2 years and that was made because they were originally prototyping their improve engine for Serious Sam 4 by making puzzle design levels and that eventually led to Talos being made. Even if that game bombed CroTeam would still have old Serious Sam games which they still make money off from Steam sales and Humble Bundles so they'll still be fine, not really much of a risk for them to make a puzzle game and they would also be making improvements to the engine which will be use for Serious Sam 4. Talos though became a sleeper hit for them.

 

[Kill3r7]

If you are going to make a game that is worth playing odds are people are going to pirate it, if possible. Consider it free advertising/cost of doing business. All indie developers have to face this dilemma.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

It's not just legal. When someone offers a product at a price, and another person agrees to that price, and money is exchanged for the good, it's a two-way contract. That's not just legal, it's completely moral.

If one person offers a good for sale at a particular price, and another person takes the good without compensating the person offering the good, that's immoral, and a breaking of the offered contract.

Just think about it.

Yeah, but for the context of what I was replying to, that is pretty much irrelevant.

Pirates horde games that they arent interested in for the same reasons people horde games that they bought at dirt cheap prices that they will never play. Its pretty much the same mentallity.

Its just like how Kelptomanics and obsessive shoppers have pretty much the same level of impluse control problems. Just 2 sides of the same coin.

 

[ZangBa]

I think the price just appears too high. I say appears, because on the surface it looks like a typical indie puzzle game, even though it may be worth it. I had a little interest in the game until I saw the price. It could be a good game, but for $40 I could get so much more than a puzzle game, by a studio I have more experience with.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

Can't believe people are complaining about the price point. Hell I didn't know it was $40 and was ready to spend $60 after reading the reviews. Seems to be a game worth it.

Worth isn't universal.

 

[CosmicQueso]

Yeah, but for the context of what I was replying to, that is pretty much irrelevant.

Pirates horde games that they arent interested in for the same reasons people horde games that they bought a dirt cheap prices that they will never play. Its pretty much the same mentallity.

Fair enough.

 

[Sylas]

Yeah, and those people aren't pirating games.

That's a pretty authoritative stance you're taking, and I think you're wrong and obtuse for making it. They could, and are if the data from the European study on digital music is correct, be pirating and purchasing after confirmation that their purchase would satisfy them.

 

[daveo42]

I actually do hope he releases or seeds an updated copy of the game that lets you complete every puzzle in the starting area and then breaks on the gate. You could even make that one puzzle a requirement to do any other puzzle on the island. Hey, you could at least play it like Proteus at that point.

The Witness is gamier than people are giving it credit for. I wouldn't compare it to Tetris for many different reasons.

But it's a game you could easily play for free on the iPad.

 

[andycapps]

It's one of the realities of releasing a game on PC. You have to hope that your console sales and legitimate Steam sales will make you profitable.

 

[Messofanego]

I have $100 in my budget for the week. I could spend that $100 on good food, or I could spend $40 on a game and $60 on mediocre food. In both cases, I will be fed.

In the first case, I will have food that I know is tasty and will make me happy! In the second case, I will have a new game to play and food that's filling but not my favorite.

If I spend $40 on the game and realize I don't like it--I'm going to be very disappointed that I couldn't try the game out beforehand, and thus am stuck eating mediocre food and having a game I don't really like. I can ask for a refund, but it takes 3-5 business days to get it put back into my account. By the time I get it all sorted, the next week will have rolled around and my budget resets.

Piracy isn't the solution, but a demo--especially for something like The Witness--has it's merits even with refunds.

Research has already showed that demos are a net negative, business wise. No matter how much we loved them or bought a game after the demo.

https://youtu.be/7QM6LoaqEnY

 

[Mr Cola]

I was going to buy tthe game but the thread about it causing people to feel sick put me off more than the price point, not experienced that sort of thing in a game before but there were lots of folk saying it was affecting them severely with no history of it.

 

[shortsFortallPeople]

I was hyperbolic too before, pirating is wrong ofc, but I really don't like it when people talk about entitlement especially in regards to poor people.

It's like when people mention immigrants all having smartphones to insinuate they can't have it that bad, or stuff.

i have a sociology degree, i agree with your premise in general. but we're also talking about video games, a luxury among luxuries. No poor person is concerned about equal access to the witness.

 

[goldenpp72]

I'm waiting for a physical release but I expected it to sell a lot more for some reason. I wonder how it's doing on ps4..

 

[VivaciousSoul]

If someone pirates a game and never plays it has a wrong been committed? If not, how much of the game do they have to experience before it becomes wrong?

 

[digitalrelic]

That's a pretty authoritative stance you're taking, and I think you're wrong and obtuse for making it. They could, and are if the data from the European study on digital music is correct, be pirating and purchasing after confirmation that their purchase would satisfy them.

BRB I'm going to go steal a Ferrari, but I'll be sure to come back and buy it if I really like it.

 

[Coffee Dog]

I don't think it matters whether or not the game is actually worth $40; if consumers don't see it as worth that price, that isn't the fault of piracy. People buy games that they think are worth the price, that's why there's so many high selling games on PC in the first place.

BRB I'm going to go steal a Ferrari, but I'll be sure to come back and buy it if I really like it.

don't you mean copy a ferrari?

 

[wapplew]

Can't believe people are complaining about the price point. Hell I didn't know it was $40 and was ready to spend $60 after reading the reviews. Seems to be a game worth it.

Indie stigma.

 

[AndrewDean84xX]

He deserves equal compensation for the work the team put into the development. Just because he already got alot of money for it, so he should shut up aout people stealing his work?

Its this poor thinking that encourages people to be permissive about piracy.

Deserves? The world doesn't work like that.

 

[GatticusFinch]

BRB I'm going to go steal a Ferrari, but I'll be sure to come back and buy it if I really like it.

Pretty sure I've test driven every car I've ever bought.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Sure. It can be a bit shocking though to see the numbers on the piracy side versus the purchase side.

Just about ten years ago, a multiplayer shooter... a friend... was working on launched. Was full price on consoles and PC. The devs reached out and said "wow we have a hit! We have X thousand players on right now! This is amazing!" Unfortunately, sales on PC were only 5% of the concurrent player count at that moment. It was crushing.

I agree with you, but then again we haven't spent the last, what, 3 to 5 years working and thinking about this thing every day.

Sure. And to be clear, I'm less interested in calling out Blow's disappointment here than I am just in the broader discussion about PC games piracy. I understand where he's coming from. I'm sure in that position I'd be pretty crushed too. But as someone not emotionally invested in it, I just think it's important not to miss out on the big picture. High piracy numbers don't necessarily equal commercial failure.

 

[MrBadger]

People trying to justify their piracy is more irritating than piracy itself. If people don't want to pay the $40 asking price, they shouldn't feel entitled to play the game anyway.

 

[Movalpolos]

weird how sales for certain games sky rocket when they go on sale huh? even people who previously pirated the game purchase it for a lower price point

how does that work?

Why would the pirates buy it if they already got it for free?

 

[Sylas]

BRB I'm going to go steal a Ferrari, but I'll be sure to come back and buy it if I really like it.

Now you're being rude and obnoxious. There is absolutely no correlation between stealing a physical good and pirating a digital product, much less on the scale you're speaking to.

But I presume you also don't agree with test drives? You're stealing those miles!

 

[Coffee Dog]

Research has already showed that demos are a net negative, business wise. No matter how much we loved them or bought a game after the demo.

https://youtu.be/7QM6LoaqEnY

Exactly. Demos educate consumers about the product, and educated consumers hurt revenue.

 

[MMaRsu]

The piracy issue is harsh, as I understand Blow wanting to get paid for his work. There's ways e could have reduced this issue though. For example -

The price of the game is steep for a digital only title. PSN pricing has been a bad joke in the UK for a while now anyway, with prices jacked up around £10 just by virtue of the PS4 being released (even on games that are more or less the same on the PS3). Personally, i'm not pirating it, but I am waiting for a sale price (although to be fair I promised myself to be more frugal with gaming from now on regardless).

Also, with no retail option (where competing stores usually means someone is offering a lower than RRP cost somewhere) AND it being a niche experience that apparently needs to be played to understand its greatness... I dunno. He should have made a demo so people could try it out, maybe? Stellar reviews and lack of demo only works if your first person game has a gun on the screen somewhere.

Lol what does being a digital title have to do with anything? So because its not available at retail 40 is too steep? This is a 40 hour + game and its amazing. Its totally worth 36.99 euros or 30£

 

[barit]

Well next time stay exclusive to consoles and you won't have that problem I guess

 

[daveo42]

Can't believe people are complaining about the price point. Hell I didn't know it was $40 and was ready to spend $60 after reading the reviews. Seems to be a game worth it.

It's the same reason why people complain about even paying $1 for an app on their cellphone. Implied worth based solely on what its on or whatever arbitrary label is applied to it (read: indie games can't be more than $20 ever because it's an indie game).

 

[Branson]

It sucks but this isn't surprising. I'm waiting for a steam sale myself. Too many other games in my backlog to play at the moment.

 

[valkillmore]

As an artist and creator, the more people get to experience your work the better, but not at the cost of pirating. Actually it makes my blood boil. It's only $40. Maybe get some fucking cash together.

 

[BadHand]

There was somebody on Blow's twitter that mentioned 36.99 Euros is equivalent to one months rent (Macedonia) and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of this was from those situations.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Well next time stay exclusive to consoles and you won't have that problem I guess

Staying exclusive to consoles would mean less people buying the game, though, which is the entire problem.

 

[nakedeyes]

Isn't this an example of pricing yourself out of the market? I mean, piracy is completely wrong, but I doubt the vast majority of pirates would have paid $40 for the game in the first place.

Effectively maybe, but it's still wrong.

Some people don't think The Witcher 3 is worth 10$.. doesn't make them right in any fashion, and still makes pirating the game for the sake of not paying wrong IMO.

 

[Sylas]

Lol what does being a digital title have to do with anything? So because its not available at retail 40 is too steep? This is a 40 hour + game and its amazing. Its totally worth 36.99 euros or 30£

There's something to be said about possession of a physical good, especially in a digital age where you're licensing the ability to use your product for as long as it's "allowed" to be used. A physical product doesn't have these same limitations while also retaining a resale value. There's both an implicit and explicit value-add with physical goods.

 

[The Wheel of Fortune]

$40 for an independent puzzle adventure game is pretty steep. Yes, Portal 2 was $60, but it had the marketing power of the first Portal, EA's publishing support at retail, as well as two storylines, Steam cross compatibility, and more.

How come people here have a hard time understanding this? Incredible...
While $40 for this may seem appropiate for some of you, especially after playing it, some of us are of the fence because that does seem like a lot for a puzzle game from an indie developer. Opinions, huh?
Obviously, this does not mean that piracy is acceptable, but you can't say "piracy made me go bankrupt!" when you can't get people to buy your game. That means there's a problem with the game itself, not just pirates.

Plus, the nausea issues make it an ever harder buy.
I'll gladly check it on PS4, when it gets patched, and is on sale.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

Why would the pirates buy it if they already got it for free?

(insert list of every benefit of having a game on steam here)

 

[arts&crafts]

Man people are so cheap. Who uses steam refund for a demo? I really wish Steam would remove the refund feature. I have used it once, but that was just because I bought a game on sale on steam and then it was in a 1 dollar bundle the next day, really this is the publishers fault.

 

[badnewsbeers]

There's nothing wrong with the price point.

I didn't pirate it, but I'm not buying for $40. At $20 I would have. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 

[Duuke]

How can anyone justify stealing a game. People can fool themselves into thinking what they're doing is justified - but in the end, they're benefiting from a lot of peoples hard work illegally.

It's 2016, this game is available on multiple platforms and the ease with digital releases makes purchases friction-less.

Don't be a chump and pirate. Watch twitch instead if you can't afford it.

 

[viveks86]

With shit like this, I guess humanity deserves Denuvo

 

[Insane Metal]

Well this blows

 

[jshackles]

Anyone else remember when The Witcher 3 released and CDPR went on the discussion boards on large piracy sites and let people know about all the GOG Galaxy features they would be missing out on? They got some big kudos not just from the pirates themselves but also from a PR standpoint, and I imagine they convinced at least a few people who may have been on the fence about buying the game (but were obviously leaning more towards piracy) to buy it, even if they waited until it was on sale.

Seems like a better tactic that shows you understand the business and recognize that people will pirate your game for a number of different reasons. The best you can hope for is to convert some of those pirated copies into sales, and I don't think anyone's ever done that by calling people out on it.

 

[Reebot]

The brazen and continued defense, or at least tolerance, of thieves by large portions of the gaming community is just sad.

 

[Movalpolos]

If someone pirates a game and never plays it has a wrong been committed? If not, how much of the game do they have to experience before it becomes wrong?

Of course it's wrong.

 

[Fishook]

Puzzle games tend something you waste half an hour in, and then on to another title and that why they are successful on tablets and phones. rather than a costly release.

I haven't played Talos Principle partly because I have a backlog of other stuff to play (enjoyed demo). It will be a slow burner in terms of sales figures.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

It still amazes me that anyone believes something as fucking idiotic as this.

How is it idiotic?

 

[Sylas]

How can anyone justify stealing a game. People can fool themselves into thinking what they're doing is justified - but in the end, they're benefiting from a lot of peoples hard work illegally.

It's 2016, this game is available on multiple platforms and the ease with digital releases makes purchases friction-less.

Don't be a chump and pirate. Watch twitch instead if you can't afford it.

How is watching someone else play through the entire game any different than pirating it in this case? In both cases you've the potential to see the entirety of the product without paying for it.