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Trump risks major diplomatic dispute with China after speaking with Taiwan's prez

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J

jblank83

Member
"China is big and scary" isn't a good reason to do (or not do) things. The USA being powerful didn't protect us from criticism during the bungled Bush invasions.

China DGAF about what the entire world says regarding their ridiculous "island reclamation" claims. I don't see why we should GAF about a simple phone call. It's about as ridiculous as them getting upset when we have the audacity to let the Dalai Lama visit.

If people are this scared of a phone call, I wonder what they think of, as someone else pointed out, the defense pact we have with and selling of military equipment we routinely do for Taiwan, which draw similar complaints from China.


NervousXtian said:
Oh, and he just called them Taiwan.

Keep on keepin' Donald.
Click to expand...

What do you call them? Every Taiwanese I've ever met and every American I've ever met refers to them as Taiwan.
 
Y

yanipheonu

Member
Oh boy. It's one of the worst parts of the Trump deal. The president is one of America's biggest diplomatic forces.

"He's just joking" or "he's kind of an idiot" doesn't fly quite as well when you're dealing with legit language and cultural barriers with legitimate stakes involved.
 
B

BKK

Member
Dan said:
You don't know what you're talking about. There is nothing "expected" about Trump doing something for the first time in 40 years.
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It should be expected, as in it's the government that they support militarily. If you disagree with me, feel free to debate with me, but you won't win the debate by shouting that the people that disagree with you "don't know what they're talking about".

NervousXtian said:
Oh, and he just called them Taiwan.

Keep on keepin' Donald.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's their name, pretty ridiculous that everybody licks PRC's ass and calls Taiwan "Chinese Taipei".
 
B

Balphon

Member
The larger issue isn't so much taking the call itself, dumb as it may be, it's that this is quickly becoming a pattern of behavior for the Pres-elect. We're talking about the same guy who was causing minor panic not two days ago by being vague on the phone with the PM of Pakistan. We gain nothing by projecting uncertainty internationally, especially as a result of the President stumbling blindly into things.
 
R

Rebel Leader

THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
Hexa said:
a7SGfvZ.png
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He's a damn idiot
 
Monocle

Monocle

Member
Hey you guys I wonder what will happen if we empower a clueless TV host to run the nation and then cast him into the volatile waters of geopolitics.
 
andythinkpad

andythinkpad

Member
If China wants to play hard ball, they would do hypersonic missile testing. US actually don't have answer for this.

But China is not Putin. I suspect they will not do anything for now, but squeeze Taiwan hard like a motherfucker.
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
BKK said:
It should be expected, as in it's the government that they support militarily. If you disagree with me, feel free to debate with me, but you won't win the debate by shouting that the people that disagree with you "don't know what they're talking about".
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We have established mechanisms for the US government to interact with Taiwan. That is what China expects. It may not be what China finds ideal, or what the US finds ideal, but it's what is expected. Changing that on a whim before Trump even assumes office does nothing good to serve the country's interests. It is either intentional or unintentional antagonization without a care for the consequences.
 
C

chadskin

Member
Perhaps Xi Jinping should in return recognize the illegal annexation of Texas by the US and declare whoever heads the Republic of Texas movement these days the rightful president of Texas.

I mean, who the fuck is Trump to forbid Glorious Xi to phone the President of the Republic of Texas, right?

(It's nice when these things happen in a region far away from home eh.)
 
H

Hasphat'sAnts

Member
andythinkpad said:
If China wants to play hard ball, they would do hypersonic missile testing. US actually don't have answer for this.

But China is not Putin. I suspect they will not do anything for now, but squeeze Taiwan hard like a motherfucker.
Click to expand...

Yes. They will put their plans in motion to test Trump's level of support for Taiwan. It'll be bad for people on either end of the strait.

If Trump answers, tensions will escalate further. If he does not, then Taiwan is fucked.
 
B

BKK

Member
Dan said:
We have established mechanisms for the US government to interact with Taiwan. That is what China expects. It may not be what China finds ideal, or what the US finds ideal, but it's what is expected. Changing that on a whim before Trump even assumes office does nothing good to serve the country's interests. It is either intentional or unintentional antagonization without a care for the consequences.
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That's a fair point.
 
T

TheGreyHulk

Member
I have no issue with this. I know it's a big deal to China and all that, but times are changing and I'd rather we deal with Taiwan independently than going through China to talk to them.

Yeah, that little agreement was made decades ago about us recognizing China as a whole entity and Taiwan being a province, but if we're all about "democracy" as we say we are, why cant we talk to the Taiwan directly instead of having to play by China's rules.
 
R

Rebel Leader

THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
TheGreyHulk said:
I have no issue with this. I know it's a big deal to China and all that, but times are changing and I'd rather we deal with Taiwan independently than going through China to talk to them.

Yeah, that little agreement was made decades ago about us recognizing China as a whole entity and Taiwan being a province, but if we're all about "democracy" as we say we are, why cant we talk to the Taiwan directly instead of having to play by China's rules.
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You should have an issue with who's doing it.

You think this man will do it the right way?
Proceede with caution?
 
T

TheGreyHulk

Member
Rebel Leader said:
You should have an issue with who's doing it.

You think this man will do it the right way?
Proceeding with caution
Click to expand...

Well, what is the "right" way? Just following what others did previously and contacting an office in China to relay a message to their province of Taiwan?

I do understand why it's a big deal to China because the definitely do not want anyone, especially the US, to acknowledge Taiwan as independent from China. The context of the call obviously doesn't help since Trump is congratulating Taiwan's new president and that's a huge slap in the face to China.... but... it just sounds like China's just going to throw a political hissy fit and that's it.
 
Z

Zaph

Member
TheGreyHulk said:
I have no issue with this. I know it's a big deal to China and all that, but times are changing and I'd rather we deal with Taiwan independently than going through China to talk to them.

Yeah, that little agreement was made decades ago about us recognizing China as a whole entity and Taiwan being a province, but if we're all about "democracy" as we say we are, why cant we talk to the Taiwan directly instead of having to play by China's rules.
Click to expand...

Geopolitics doesn't happen in a vacuum. If it did, diplomats wouldn't have to be so delicate in their position and wording.

When it comes to Taiwan, the US doesn't take the approach they do just to be nice to China, there's obviously something in it for them. Throwing that out the window without sincere consideration and manoeuvring first won't help you.
 
Hexa

Hexa

Member
adj_noun said:
Donald Trump is going to show us all just how simple and easy to navigate international politics truly are.
Click to expand...

Is there a chance that he could actually end up making things a lot simpler?
Communication is based on being able to understand each other. All these various 'rituals' and protocols developed because everyone agreed that they had the same meaning and indicated the same things.
But if one party in the communication completely disregards all of this, acts as if nothing that meant things before mean anything to them, does any of it still apply? Would China or any other major state continue to obey these protocols and still assign them meaning if the US completely disregards them?
I think by necessity, international politics are going to become a lot less about the subtle things. Though obviously all of these were developed over time as necessities so there is certainly some value to them and the immediate gap is going to result in a lot of miscommunication.
But overall I think it will result in geopoltics being more clear.
 
H

Hasphat'sAnts

Member
Hollywood Duo said:
Frankly our current policy stance on Taiwan is pathetic so of all the reasons to call him an asshole this is not one of them. If he called the Dalai Lama would that make him an asshole too?
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He's not an asshole for calling Taiwan. He's an asshole for being reckless.

We have precedent of our president meeting the Dalai Lama.
 
B

BKK

Member
adj_noun said:
Donald Trump is going to show us all just how simple and easy to navigate international politics truly are.
Click to expand...

It's not as if Obama managed to stop Chinese aggresion in the South China Sea.

Let's be honest, the last administration was a massive failure with regards to this. Maybe Trump will fail too, but it seems that many are quick to call failure before he has had a chance, whilst not acknowledging the failures of the previous administration with regards to this.
 
J

JoeyJungle

Banned
BKK said:
It's not as if Obama managed to stop Chinese aggresion in the South China Sea.

Let's be honest, the last administration was a massive failure with regards to this. Maybe Trump will fail too, but it seems that many are quick to call failure before he as had a chance, whilst not acknowledging the failures of the previous administration with regards to this.
Click to expand...

It's a complicated situation because the South China Sea is not a problem that occurs in isolation from everything else. The US can try to empower allies in the region and discourage China from pressing their claims for the territory, but that also needs to be balanced against the positive relationship the US requires with China for China to use their power to limit North Korea's activity. In addition is the economic relationship that the US and China require between each other.

Cavalierly pissing off China without considering the complex structure between nations globally is just not a great idea. Obama was not able to solve these problems, but this is not a strong indication that Trump is going to do any better (and in fact may make each situation worse).
 
C

chadskin

Member
BKK said:
It's not as if Obama managed to stop the Chinese aggresion in the South China Sea.

Let's be honest, the last administration was a massive failure with regards to this. Maybe Trump will fail too, but it seems that many are quick to call failure before he as had a chance, whilst not acknowledging the failures of the previous administration with regards to this.
Click to expand...

Withdrawing from Obama's TPP sure is a great way to uphold and strengthen US influence in the region.

It's funny people think Trump is concerned about Taiwan's democracy or China's aggressions in the region.
 
N

nephilimdj

Member
99Luffy said:
I didnt even know China barred other countries from talking to Taiwan. Thats sounds shameful as hell. Shame!!
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It doesn't, USA is the 2nd biggest investor in Taiwan.

People are forgetting this is just a name thing, like Cyprus and Macedonia. Its just endless short term outrage by people when they hear the wrong name
 
C

Cesare Borgia

Banned
jfkgoblue said:
China won't do shit to us about this, they depend on us way to much. They will grovel and complain, but in the end they won't do anything. Not to mention the have virtually no Navy so it isn't like they could act out on us any way.
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Eh? They're going to test Trump, and soon.
 
B

BKK

Member
JoeyJungle said:
It's a complicated situation because the South China Sea is not a problem that occurs in isolation from everything else. The US can try to empower allies in the region and discourage China from pressing their claims for the territory, but that also needs to be balanced against the positive relationship the US requires with China for China to use their power to limit North Korea's activity. In addition is the economic relationship that the US and China require between each other.
Click to expand...

I agree, it is complicated, but I really think that China has pretty much lost nearly all influence with North Korea. China doesn't even need the US to tell them that it's not in their interest to nuclearise that region, but there is very little that US or China can do about it.

China has been super aggressive in the South China Sea, and the last administration has just allowed it. This has been a massive failure IMO, creating real tensions in that region by only semi-backing their allies. This will potentially be the issue in that region for decades to come. If the US was more forceful against China's bullying then maybe they could have encouraged a negotiation on the matter.
 
P

Par Score

Member
I could not be more opposed to Trump's presidency on moral, ethical and practical grounds. He is an incompetent and inexperienced buffoon who plays on the fears of decent American's and fans the fires that burn within the racist, sexist minority that makes up the core of his support.

That said, the US should absolutely normalise it's relationship with a country like Taiwan, and not doing so because big scary China would get mad is a ridiculous position to be in for a country like the US. You sold them $7bn worth of military hardware in the last 5 years for crying out loud.

So, Trump bad, diplomatic relationships with and recognition of Taiwan good.
 
P

Polari

Member
Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 2m2 minutes ago
Interesting how the U.S. sells Taiwan billions of dollars of military equipment but I should not accept a congratulatory call.
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:dying lol lol

What a doubling down - no chill!
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Par Score said:
I could not be more opposed to Trump's presidency on moral, ethical and practical grounds. He is an incompetent and inexperienced buffoon who plays on the fears of decent American's and fans the fires that burn within the racist, sexist minority that makes up the core of his support.

That said, the US should absolutely normalise it's relationship with a country like Taiwan, and not doing so because big scary China would get mad is a ridiculous position to be in for a country like the US. You sold them $7bn worth of military hardware in the last 5 years for crying out loud.

So, Trump bad, diplomatic relationships with and recognition of Taiwan good.
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If Obama, or hell, if President Romney did this knowing some of the ramifications as a deliberate gesture with plans to follow through I'd be much less worried

Trump is an idiot who relishes being uninformed. The problem is that he is going to have zero clue for how to follow this up without making everything worse
 
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