phosphor112
Banned
You sound confident.
He doesn't know what he's talking about, it's 64 bit.
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VGLeaks: Details multiple devkits evolution of Orbis
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
You sound confident.
He doesn't know what he's talking about, it's 64 bit.
pharmboy044
Member
Use Gakai to stream your content that was bought on PSN?
phosphor112
Banned
Creating servers and supplying the bandwidth to plays those would likely exceed the cost of just putting it in the system.
For free?
Sony was well aware of MS's bad contract with Nvidia. As I recall Sony was careful to make sure they owned the RSX ip so that they can do what they want with it without having to renegotiate process shrinks and other such messes. If anything prevents BC, it'll be business decisions based on the cost of Cells.
Considering the Cell is still theoretically more powerful than any of the rumored next-gen CPUs, I think it'd make a fine physics/graphics coprocessor.
somuchwater
Member
Putting HW BC into the system is an additional manufacturing/materials cost that has to recouped by either raising the price or relying on profits down the road.
Streaming is something you can not only charge over, but you can also use those servers for other services like VOD.
i was just thinking that
didnt one of the leaks of that "mysterious" extra chip for offloading certain tasks like physics?
a cell chip could do that and have a side effect of making BC possible
plutoknight
Member
I really do not hope that they force BC into streaming via GAikai-esque services.
I live in an area of teh country where the Internet isn't the greatest for streaming, especially at a high quality like what would be expected of my games. I can barely get Netflix to kick out HD video half the time -- it took over 48 hours of constant downloading to download The Secret World.
Gaikai BC servers would have to be PS3s, not the best choice for VOD servers. If Gaikai could use PCs for BC, then the PS4 will be able run the games in software anyway.
Yeah, makes lots of sense all around. The best part is if PS4 games use the Cell, that means we'll have PS3 BC for the life of the system.
Only acceptable if there's no loss of IQ and no input lag.
phosphor112
Banned
They'd have to create the servers that can run PS3 games in the first place. You cant just shit out servers. And at that point they might as well use the chip for BC in the PS4 because it doubles as a much needed DSP and media chip.
I still stand by my theory that Sony are going to use Gaikai for video streaming only. This will fall in line with their mysterious 4K delivery method.
SirIgbyCeaser
Banned
Selling full PS3 titles to download on PSN is a worthwhile market.
It actually would be foolish to miss out on the profits that come from selling people last generations games online.
I believe in BC for the PS4. Having a cell cpu, and XDR ram to make it happen on each motherboard might be worth the money. As long as it's not crazy stuff like crazy ken demanded.
phosphor112
Banned
They already mentioned the 4K delivery would be download to get high quality videos.
MikeE21286
Member
I've come to the realization that BC for PS4 (from a hardware perspective) is out of the question.
I'll keep my PS3 for those games, or re-buy them on PS4.
I'll keep my PS3 for those games, or re-buy them on PS4.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
If Sony were clever they would add BC for ps2 and ps1 but have an add on for BC with PS3.
That way people who do not want it don't have to pay for it with the price of the ps4, the ps4 price would be lower and people who do want it have an option to buy it.
That way people who do not want it don't have to pay for it with the price of the ps4, the ps4 price would be lower and people who do want it have an option to buy it.
phosphor112
Banned
You're drunk. Go home.
At least read some of the posts, man.
You wouldn't need RSX, the Cell itself (only a replacement that can double as a DSP and media chip for the PS4) nor would you need XDR.
R10Neymarfan
Member
Really? Please elaborate on what you just said. You only need the Cell itself. I guess you can use the PS4's GPU and GDDR5 to emulate the others. That being said maybe the cell or it's replacement can be the PS4's sound processor.
googleplex
Member
Actually, what we were just discussing was a way to have BC without Cell or RSX.
phosphor112
Banned
They don't need it. People just can't read and keep saying stuff, thus others (like you) end up asking this exact question.
They answered poorly conveyed CES questions on the matter with the general response being "we'll reveal our plans at a later date". I reckon we will see Steam + direct download for video.
Byakuya769
Member
Phosphor is beggining to convince me.
I only see an issue if Sony doesn't provide the emulation tools on the system. Studios aren't going to re-code their games to work on another system unless they launch the game full retail under an HD+ title.
I don't see Sony not baking in the emulator in their final product.
So essentially just need to add CELL and RSX (which is still probably a nightmare for the mainboard)?
phosphor112
Banned
Yeah, they'd basically put in the emulator itself. The "cell" is there in essence (2 PPU's 8 SPE's), Sony can write software to automatically run the GPU in "BC" mode to emulate the RSX, and the Cell and GPU can access the GDDR5 from the main memory.
-___-
Noooo they just put two of these chips on the mobo, attach it to the memory, write some software and thats it.
No, it just means the CPU is x86 compatible. x86 doesn't equate to 32 bit, the 64 bit processors of Intel and AMD of today are still x86. x86 just means binary compatibility with the early Intel processor.
x86 was actually originally 16 bit anyways, but extensions do away with that while still being x86 compatible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86
People sometimes use it to reffer to 32 bit, but that is a mistake. And x64 isn't a thing at all if that's the omission you were thinking of, x86-64 is a more proper connotation.
Think about it. The rumors are jumping between 4 and 8GB RAM. A 32 bit processor can address neither one of those, it's limited to a bit under 4GB. It's going to be 64 bit for sure. Amd doesn't even make 32 bit processors now, and we know Jaguar is 64.
androvsky said:
I have seen people speculating about Cell being part of PS4's hardware for BC and as the systems lil helper before. You know what I think about when I hear this?
How awesome the internet arguments, meltdowns and comparisons (and Castle Vidcons?) will be when secret wizzard jizz takes on "power of the Cell" the second and Wii U's gpgpu and teh eRAMs.
Studios wouldn't have to do anything to achieve backwards compatibility. What is likely to happen is Sony Cambridge works on developing the packet-switching software that is installed with every PS4 and activates backwards compatibility when a PS3 game is pushed into the Blu-Ray drive. Once that game is removed, or whenever a PSN players stops playing an older PSN game will it switch back into PS4 mode.
Cell as a companion processor would be interesting. As much as a programmers nightmare that was, even to this day it's a FLOP monster, a committed developer could surely use it for some sort of acceleration. Or even just move audio and video streaming and Move processing onto it, then use it for hardware BC when needed.
phosphor112
Banned
Just wow.
Hardware BC is becoming a thing of the past because
1) Previous tech hasn't shrunk enough to drop everything into a single chip
2) The extra components take up space, create additional heat, require additional power and means the mainboard has to be redesigned to fit it in. This all costs a decent chunk of change in R&D.
3) The tech in the machine (Sony) is more than capable enough to emulate CELL and RSX, it just needs the correct emulator to do it. I'm sure the same can be said about 720, but MS doesn't seem all that concerned with BC.
We may see software emulation thrown out next next gen if consoles become more and more like desktop PCs.
Dreamgazer
Member
Debug and testing purpose.
It would probably be far far easier to get that going on a modern GPU like they're supposed to be using.
Codeblew
Member
\
It is possible though that the OS is 32 bit. You can install 32 bit linux on a 64 bit processor. They don't need to address more than 4g of memory so really, what does a 64 bit OS buy them other than more required memory for the OS?
So that it can run the PC OS and the development tools? You don't want to be writing Android apps for example on a computer with as much RAM as the device you are coding for, that would be a nightmare. You need a lot more for the overhead for it to perform well. The system has to run itself, the device in emulation, and the software development kits.
Memory address space. You can technically get around the ~3.8ish GB limit of 32 bit OSs, but it's more efficient to use a 64 bit OS. Plus a 64 bit OS gains some speedup by processing 64 bit chunks.
On day 1
Wasn't there a GAFer saying Planetside 2 would too heavy of a load the PS4s rumored CPU?
I guess he wasn't taking into account the power of porting or optimization?
It is a CPU heavy game but we won't see the PS4 version running in 1080p or 60fps anyways.
phosphor112
Banned
I was jesting. -__-
That's why they'll include an extra single die.
They've clearly put time into R&D the patent itself. Using the PE and attaching it to not only one another, but other chips as well. Since it's a single die they'd just have to attach it to the RAM.
Nothing other than the Cell, at this point emulate the Cell. PS5 maybe when we go fully 3D stacked processors, but as of now? Hell no. Not even the top PC's can do it. RSX can be emulated, but trying to emulate Cell right now? Impossible. The architecture is way too different and the LS that each SPE has completely surpasses the speed of everything else. Brute forcing it doesn't work on any other chip yet.
Yeah, they won't need to put Cell in PS5 (as mentioned above), hell they might not even need PS3 games, but going forward x86 is going to make this a lot easier.
This. Besides, how many players does Planetside 2 currently allow on a single server? Something like 2 thousand plus? MAG by comparison was less than 10x that sort of scale. If Sony needs to sacrifice half of the total number of players on the server to get the game running smoothly at a locked 60fps (a target I pray for), then so be it. Planetside 2 at half of the players than on PC is still incredibly more massive than console gamers have ever experienced.
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