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[Reiko]

Dr Who?

Who is who?

Better for me to say, I have no idea why that was stated.

 

[Ashes]

I think we'll have to wait till E3 to see Microsoft's sales pitch.

 

[StevieP]

I think we'll have to wait till E3 to see Microsoft's sales pitch.

It's already available in documentation that's leaked long ago. Well, the basics at least. The driving force behind what you're getting. The previous few E3s offer a lot of clues as well.

 

[Ding-Ding]

I think we'll have to wait till E3 to see Microsoft's sales pitch.

I doubt that. Way to many announcements while having to fight for column inches with Sony & Nintendo. They are going to want as much time in the spotlight for themselves.

With Sony going on the 20th, it releases 3rd parties to talk about their titles for PS4. If MS leaves it to late, consumers might start thinking about brand association with any titles talked about in the meantime

MS made good use of brand association this gen, they would be stupid to give it up so easily now (besides, 3rd parties will push heavily for an announcement now)

 

[Kun Aguero]

dont think we will see a SSD slot.

A 16GB flash drive was mentioned in the leak that used the codename "Liverpool" for the first time, so I would think there's a fair chance a small SSD is included.

 

[somuchwater]

A 16GB flash drive was mentioned in the leak that used the codename "Liverpool" for the first time, so I would think there's a fair chance a small SSD is included.

I thought this too, but apparently there is a difference between flash memory (like that on a USB stick) and an SSD drive (which depends on a fast, and expensive controller).

The Eurogamer review of the 12GB PS3 showed that it isn't really much faster than an HDD and in some cases, like deleting things, is actually much much slower.

Still, since I don't really know what I'm talking about, maybe Sony can do it in a way that is cost efficient and provides fast enough performance to increase loading times for both games and apps etc.

 

[phosphor112]

I think Sony's current 16GB flash model is a testbed for just that.

I've been talking a lot with Richard Leadbetter about next gen in general. We discussed Flash storage for a bit and I said I think we'd see it. He told me to keep an eye out for his review, I totally forgot about it until today (published 2 days ago).

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-playstation-3-12gb-super-slim-review

With no storage device in the hard drive bay, we took apart the 12GB PS3 to unearth its secrets - like the fact it actually has a 16GB flash chip.

First up, kudos to Sony for not upselling the 12GB PlayStation 3. The chip found inside the new model - Samsung NAND identical to that used in the Kindle Fire HD - actually has 16GB of storage, but only 12GB is available to the end-user (Microsoft take note). The balance is hived off by the PS3's GameOS, used extensively by devs for caching data while you play.

This is something I've suggested for some time now.

There are some comparison videos of the 12g, 250g, 500g, and SSD installs and deletes.
Conclusion? Games that deal with countless small files run much better on the 12g than the HDDs. For example, GT5 load times were cut by 25+ seconds for loading tracks, and install was significantly shorter than a non-flash PS3. The deletion rate of the 12g flash is extremely slow though, and they showed RAGE as an example of a game that seemed to cause performance issues because the flash can't get new data in fast enough because it cant clear the old data out, but once they popped in the hard drive, the issue was resolved completely.

What if they take a 16g flash and use the zlib decompressor to handle large "bin" type files that dump thousands of files into the cache? Richard also said they can do multiple disc reads at once so you might be able to get a multiple data reads going on from both the flash and hdd. Keep in mind the 12g PS3 completely disables the flash once a HDD is installed, so you don't see the benefit of the flash and the HDD at the same time. Going forward, if a flash is included from the start, they can design optimizations with it instead of ignoring it when the HDD is being used.

Secondly, with the flash storage dormant, it does strike us as something of a missed opportunity. It's clear that the chip has its strengths and that in some cases it can out-perform a conventional hard drive. The 4GB Xbox 360S allows players to retain access to the flash memory and use it simultaneously with the hard drive, and we would have liked the same function with the PS3. Unfortunately, GameOS is geared towards a single storage point and it's clear that Sony didn't want to undertake the significant development work required to support multiple devices concurrently.

Retrofitting it in might be difficult, but as I said above, going forward with it standard would be easy to implement.

I also thought this was interesting.

Expect this to change over time - we know that the Cell is being shrunk down to 22nm while 28nm is a good fit for the RSX

Anyway... Yep.

 

[Spongebob]

It's already available in documentation that's leaked long ago. Well, the basics at least. The driving force behind what you're getting. The previous few E3s offer a lot of clues as well.

OS, Kinect, ads, bloatware, DVR, cable box ect.

 

[Kun Aguero]

I thought this too, but apparently there is a difference between flash memory (like that on a USB stick) and an SSD drive (which depends on a fast, and expensive controller).

The Eurogamer review of the 12GB PS3 showed that it isn't really much faster than an HDD and in some cases, like deleting things, is actually much much slower.

Still, since I don't really know what I'm talking about, maybe Sony can do it in a way that is cost efficient and provides fast enough performance to increase loading times for both games and apps etc.

Thanks, I just assumed it would be a SSD, shows what I know..lol

 

[i-Lo]

I've been talking a lot with Richard Leadbetter about next gen in general. We discussed Flash storage for a bit and I said I think we'd see it. He told me to keep an eye out for his review, I totally forgot about it until today (published 2 days ago).

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-playstation-3-12gb-super-slim-review




This is something I've suggested for some time now.

There are some comparison videos of the 12g, 250g, 500g, and SSD installs and deletes.
Conclusion? Games that deal with countless small files run much better on the 12g than the HDDs. For example, GT5 load times were cut by 25+ seconds for loading tracks, and install was significantly shorter than a non-flash PS3. The deletion rate of the 12g flash is extremely slow though, and they showed RAGE as an example of a game that seemed to cause performance issues because the flash can't get new data in fast enough because it cant clear the old data out, but once they popped in the hard drive, the issue was resolved completely.

What if they take a 16g flash and use the zlib decompressor to handle large "bin" type files that dump thousands of files into the cache? Richard also said they can do multiple disc reads at once so you might be able to get a multiple data reads going on from both the flash and hdd. Keep in mind the 12g PS3 completely disables the flash once a HDD is installed, so you don't see the benefit of the flash and the HDD at the same time. Going forward, if a flash is included from the start, they can design optimizations with it instead of ignoring it when the HDD is being used.


Retrofitting it in might be difficult, but as I said above, going forward with it standard would be easy to implement.

I also thought this was interesting.


Anyway... Yep.

Looks like, atm, flash is NO substitute for SSD. That RAGE test for SSD was sublime. I wonder whether we would see SSD as a standard for PS4 (64GB and 128GB) with the option to upgrade. Streaming seems to be a forte of SSD and can go a long way in aiding 3.5GB RAM.

 

[Agent Ironside]

What do your sources have to say about current EDGE article pertaining to Sony trying to match Durango's 8GB RAM? Do they concur with BruceLeeRoy about the specs being pretty much final at this point and that that part of the article was in error?

The only thing pertaining to Sony that he's mentioned was in reference to both consoles, he said that it really almost seems like both companies went to the same manufacture with the same requirements.

I'm assuming he means that both consoles are close in power, which essentially is what Lherre said also.

 

[i-Lo]

So I have been looking at the price of SSD here in Canada and an example would be 120GB for ~CAD$80-90. That price is not too dissimilar to what the prices of 2.5" SATA used to be when PS3 first launched. Given Sony would reach an agreement for bulk purchase and/or continued supply of the HDD with one or more manufacturer, they could incorporate it for a much cheaper price.

Samsung 120GB SSD

OCZ 120GB SSD

And they will only get cheaper with each year.

So why have developers build around this speed and seek time from get go by making it a default option?

The only thing pertaining to Sony that he's mentioned was in reference to both consoles, he said that it really almost seems like both companies went to the same manufacture with the same requirements.

I'm assuming he means that both consoles are close in power, which essentially is what Lherre said also.

Indeed. Thank you.

 

[daveo42]

So I have been looking at the price of SSD here in Canada and an example would be 120GB for ~CAD$80-90. That price is not too dissimilar to what the prices of 2.5" SATA used to be when PS3 first launched. Given Sony would reach an agreement for bulk purchase and/or continued supply of the HDD with one or more manufacturer, they could incorporate it for a much cheaper price.

Samsung 120GB SSD

OCZ 120GB SSD

And they will only get cheaper with each year.

So why have developers build around this speed and seek time from get go by making it a default option?

These price points work well for lower capacity SSDs, but the amount of space both companies (especially Sony) want to push more digital downloads. 120GB isn't much considering most games are now in the 10+ GB range as is.

Having multiple HDD skews would work out, but then you have to explain why they 1TB and 120GB PS4s are the exact same cost.

 

[coldfoot]

I thought this too, but apparently there is a difference between flash memory (like that on a USB stick) and an SSD drive (which depends on a fast, and expensive controller).

The Eurogamer review of the 12GB PS3 showed that it isn't really much faster than an HDD and in some cases, like deleting things, is actually much much slower.

Still, since I don't really know what I'm talking about, maybe Sony can do it in a way that is cost efficient and provides fast enough performance to increase loading times for both games and apps etc.

A SSD that reads/writes at 500MB/s on a PC will read/write at 10-15MB/s when it's plugged into the PS3, due to the PS3's crappy SATA controller/Southbridge. SSD controllers are NOT that expensive + they can be built into the southbridge with minimal die area cost.

We'll have a 32GB PS4 for $399 with just built in SSD, and a $499 model with hard drive + game, which will still keep some stuff in the SSD and use the rest of it for cache.

 

[i-Lo]

These price points work well for lower capacity SSDs, but the amount of space both companies (especially Sony) want to push more digital downloads. 120GB isn't much considering most games are now in the 10+ GB range as is.

Having multiple HDD skews would work out, but then you have to explain why they 1TB and 120GB PS4s are the exact same cost.

This is going to sound cra(z)y but what about multiple HDD solution, one integrated (or in RAID format) and another not. Let there a 16-32GB SSD to prioritise potential assets to be streamed from the "partially installed" game on a larger HDD (5400RPM, 2.5" SATA). Heck, if it were to be 32GB then half of it could store OS firmware related data (like the alleged 16GB flash chip is supposed to).

 

[daveo42]

This is going to sound cra(z)y but what about multiple HDD solution, one integrated (or in RAID format) and another not. Let there a 16-32GB SSD to prioritise potential assets to be streamed from the "partially installed" game on a larger HDD (5400RPM, 2.5" SATA). Heck, if it were to be 32GB then half of it could store OS firmware related data (like the alleged 16GB flash chip is supposed to).

Only if you aren't constantly writing and re-writing to the SSD. I know it's improved over the past few years, but SSDs still suffer from lifespan degradation from re-writes. A small SSD for OS, updates, and apps would be awesome, but dumping game data onto an SSD when it'll be overwritten once you play a new game isn't the solution.

 

[Appollowexx]

Here's the thing: there is a lot of information floating around BUT out of respect for creators and for the thrill of surprises - most of it will hopefully remain under wraps.

So you've heard rumblings? From the way you phrase this sentence, would i be correct in assuming we may be getting a few ''megatons'' for lack of a better word?

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

So you've heard rumblings? From the way you phrase this sentence, would i be correct in assuming we may be getting a few ''megatons'' for lack of a better word?

it's a console launch year! Megatons are almost a sure thing!

 

[Appollowexx]

it's a console launch year! Megatons are almost a sure thing!

With third party exclusives almost a thing of the past, 'megaton' announcements seem in far shorter supply than they used to.

I'm curious though, as both consoles with start with zero install base, whether we will start seeing 3rd party exclusives come back into fashion, if a company is willing to cover certain costs. At least for the first few years.

 

[mrklaw]

I've been talking a lot with Richard Leadbetter about next gen in general. We discussed Flash storage for a bit and I said I think we'd see it. He told me to keep an eye out for his review, I totally forgot about it until today (published 2 days ago).

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-playstation-3-12gb-super-slim-review




This is something I've suggested for some time now.

There are some comparison videos of the 12g, 250g, 500g, and SSD installs and deletes.u
Conclusion? Games that deal with countless small files run much better on the 12g than the HDDs. For example, GT5 load times were cut by 25+ seconds for loading tracks, and install was significantly shorter than a non-flash PS3. The deletion rate of the 12g flash is extremely slow though, and they showed RAGE as an example of a game that seemed to cause performance issues because the flash can't get new data in fast enough because it cant clear the old data out, but once they popped in the hard drive, the issue was resolved completely.

What if they take a 16g flash and use the zlib decompressor to handle large "bin" type files that dump thousands of files into the cache? Richard also said they can do multiple disc reads at once so you might be able to get a multiple data reads going on from both the flash and hdd. Keep in mind the 12g PS3 completely disables the flash once a HDD is installed, so you don't see the benefit of the flash and the HDD at the same time. Going forward, if a flash is included from the start, they can design optimizations with it instead of ignoring it when the HDD is being used.


Retrofitting it in might be difficult, but as I said above, going forward with it standard would be easy to implement.

I also thought this was interesting.


Anyway... Yep.

Fascinating. Surprised that some don't leave the flash memory in there for the HDD models.

Also, didn't xbox 1 do this? Have an area of the HDD for caching recently played games?

 

[coldfoot]

Only if you aren't constantly writing and re-writing to the SSD. I know it's improved over the past few years, but SSDs still suffer from lifespan degradation from re-writes. A small SSD for OS, updates, and apps would be awesome, but dumping game data onto an SSD when it'll be overwritten once you play a new game isn't the solution.

Not an issue with the frequency of home use and console lifespan.

 

[phosphor112]

Looks like, atm, flash is NO substitute for SSD. That RAGE test for SSD was sublime. I wonder whether we would see SSD as a standard for PS4 (64GB and 128GB) with the option to upgrade. Streaming seems to be a forte of SSD and can go a long way in aiding 3.5GB RAM.

It's not supposed to be a substitute for SSD, it's supposed to help with data management. And if the 12g PS3 used it, while you had an HDD installed, it would.

Fascinating. Surprised that some don't leave the flash memory in there for the HDD models.

Also, didn't xbox 1 do this? Have an area of the HDD for caching recently played games?

The flash is still in there, I believe, just disabled.

 

[waypoetic]

Torgo knows some stuff about the design. He's not spilling the beans tho'

 

[PaulExcellent]

I'll repost this from the PS4 Gif thread here, if that's OK:

I have to be honest. I'm excited.

I haven't owned a PS3 or a Vita, but I can safely say that the PS2 is one of my favorite consoles of all time. Hell, it was one of the reasons I wanted to become a game developer. To know that the next thing from Sony is coming brings that feeling that I had when I first got my Playstation 2 from my uncle. It was mind-blowing. The graphics, man. I had a N64 and a GBC at the time, so seeing "life-like" characters and environments was crazy. ICO, Zone of the Enders, dot.hack//, and Jak were the games that made me a gamer. I just hope that the PS4 delivers. If it gets close to the righteousness that the PS2 was, I'll be there Day-1.

 

[i3allistic]

512 mb ram good enough for the PS4 OS to last 5+ year?

 

[Insane Metal]

512 mb ram good enough for the PS4 OS to last 5+ year?

Yes, if the console is supposed to be specifically a gaming machine.

 

[RoboPlato]

512 mb ram good enough for the PS4 OS to last 5+ year?

The PS3's OS started at 91mb and has shrunk to 50mb while adding a lot of features. 512 is more than enough.

 

[i-Lo]

The PS3's OS started at 91mb and has shrunk to 50mb while adding a lot of features. 512 is more than enough.

~120MB actually.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

512 mb ram good enough for the PS4 OS to last 5+ year?

Doesn't the Vita use 256MB? Look how much stuff that can do.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

With third party exclusives almost a thing of the past, 'megaton' announcements seem in far shorter supply than they used to.

I'm curious though, as both consoles with start with zero install base, whether we will start seeing 3rd party exclusives come back into fashion, if a company is willing to cover certain costs. At least for the first few years.

yes they're a thing of the past, but not when consoles launch. Money hatting is always prominent during that time.

 

[Appollowexx]

yes they're a thing of the past, but not when consoles launch. Money hatting is always prominent during that time.

With Yoshida's twitter about DICE, I'm wondering if we may see a BF4 console exclusive on the 20th.

 

[RoboPlato]

yes they're a thing of the past, but not when consoles launch. Money hatting is always prominent during that time.

I've said several times that I bet there will be a lot of exclusive next gen versions of cross gen games. Publishers will likely be open to that since there's still the whole current gen install base to sell to and they'll get exclusive next gen launch hype too.

I bet Sony will snatch up a PS4 version of MGS5.

With Yoshida's twitter about DICE, I'm wondering if we may see a BF4 console exclusive on the 20th.

DICE awards. Not the BF dev

 

[Appollowexx]

DICE awards. Not the BF dev

Was a bad joke.

 

[RoboPlato]

Was a bad joke.

Ah, I made that mistake at first so I wanted to clear it up so no one would have hopes crushed.

 

[Piggus]

dont think we will see a SSD slot.

Most SSDs use the same interface (SATA) as a 2.5" hard drive. So if it has a 2.5" drive like the PS3 or 360, you'd be able to install your own SSD. In fact you can do that already with PS3.

 

[Ashes]

'Five years ago, when Apple launched the iPhone, there were 400m things that connected to the internet. Most of those were PCs,' said [ARM] chief executive Warren East. 'Now there are 1.6bn things, and three quarters of those are ARMbased products with screen sizes anywhere from three inches to 82 inches.'

.

 

[Myshkin]

Only if you aren't constantly writing and re-writing to the SSD. I know it's improved over the past few years, but SSDs still suffer from lifespan degradation from re-writes. A small SSD for OS, updates, and apps would be awesome, but dumping game data onto an SSD when it'll be overwritten once you play a new game isn't the solution.

SSD write degradations have improved for decades. You only have to look at how awful they were for the original HP Omnibook. For a few years already, SLC tech has already had write lifetimes good enough, considering the expected useful lives of the devices. MLC tech is getting close. Also, block size plays a role in the longevity. You could conceive of a silicon memory with two different block sizes, so that a small block size could be made available for the more write demanding workloads. Flushing the whole memory when launching a new game is not demanding at all. The tech is long since way beyond that.

 

[Kagari]

With third party exclusives almost a thing of the past, 'megaton' announcements seem in far shorter supply than they used to.

I'm curious though, as both consoles with start with zero install base, whether we will start seeing 3rd party exclusives come back into fashion, if a company is willing to cover certain costs. At least for the first few years.

Depends on your definition of this. There's still plenty coming out of Japan for the PS3/Vita/3DS/PSP. Unless you're talking about larger titles.

 

[Tripolygon]

Ignore if already posted
Source: http://hesit8in.deviantart.com/#/d5tw5xc

 

[i-Lo]

Oh hello there my new western digital external HDD packed in an apple-esque design box.

 

[Ashes]

Source?

edit: Here's more of his stuff:
http://hesit8in.deviantart.com/#/d5tw5xc

 

[Can Crusher]

So slick. Sold

 

[nib95]

Decent concept, but a tad too simplistic and obvious.

 

[Ashes]

 

[Angelus Errare]

God that handmade typeface is hideous. I do like the homage to the PS2 though wacky dimensions aside.

 

[bobbytkc]

Decent concept, but a tad too simplistic and obvious.

I like simplistic though. And that fanservice for all those people with a PS2.

 

[Medalion]

8x powerful as the Atari Jaguar?

SOLD!

 

[Gorillaz]

Honestly if they go with a PS2 like design it could really work. The nostalgia alone could hook people in subconsciously

 

[Tripolygon]

Oh hello there my new western digital external HDD packed in an apple-esque design box.

You do realize that is basically a minimalist take on the basic PS2 design right?

 

[Agent Ironside]